Unconditional Parenting - Chapter 2 (Giving and Withholding Love) - Page 3

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by doublyblessed

i didn't know supernanny is against ebf and cosleeping...well figures, she isn't even a MOTHER. pfff.

I know many non-mothers who are pro ebf and cosleeping. I don't think parenting is a pre-req for AP.

I am re-reading this book right now. I love it and try to incorporate it but it's *so* hard for me to follow through with. It's definitely a challenge. I mostly have an issue with the rewards/praise part after having them beaten into my brains by so many books!

[mumkimum]

This chapter really blew my mind about 'what does it mean to me to be a parent/what do I believe it means I am supposed to do'. I think just the challenge of looking at why you might decide to use or even think about using 'discipline methods' in situations with your kids is meaningful and enlightening.

It makes me think about my worst times with my dd and what was I thinking and where was that really coming from. And why is it okay to treat someone this way, what does it mean if I'm doing it as a mom and what does it mean to her that her mom is doing this?
So if I can feel I'm about to yell at her in a certain situation I really try to think about what it would mean to her for me to do that in that particular situation. Is it really more meaningful to me because I feel out of control? Can I stop myself and get myself back in control and help both of us so that I can fulfill my parenting role and assist my child.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Originally Posted by doublyblessed

i have a question about waldorf education...my dd goes to a waldorf school right now (kinder) & i have often felt that the way they discipline is quite often behaviorally based...and sometimes not-sometimes it seems unconditional. then again, much of their discipline is restraint TO's in the name of GDing, pretty much. i say but i despise being restrained cuz i had a boyf who restrained me when i'd try to break up w/ him, etc. i've been told it is different for young children...i don't know if i agree though cuz that is forcefully making the child obey....even if the teacher is holding them firmly yet 'gently' and not letting them go until they calm down. (i say just let the child be and they WILL calm down and change their tune...) unless they are hurting someone i think its uneccessary.

ie. my dd got up before her teacher called her name at the end of the morning when the kids sit in their closing circle. my dd had seen me come in & she obviously missed me and wanted to be with me. so the teacher came and got her (as my dd is kicking and screaming pretty much...heartbroken), held her (aka restrained her) and told her that when she was quiet and calm she would let her go. my heart was BREAKING and i was sooo close to going and grabbing my dd from the teachers arms. the teacher insists this is what the dc are crying out for...a safe space to just BE and calm down w/ a loving adult who cares and is patient...jeesh. i think that sounds conditional to me...obey/be nice and sweet or you can't move/do a thing. you can't even go to into your loving mama's arms...

i'll have to ponder this for today although i think i already KNOW how i feel about this, but i wanted to post this to see what some of you are feeling about it... i think waldorf tries to mask their conditional ways w/ gentle loving 'unconditional' discipline. i think now it is bogus.

i'm hoping my dd will get into one of our local public magnet schools...it is a democratic setting, mixed age...its AWESOME. no kid is forced to do a thing if they don't wish to, need space...its just great. fingers crossed...

Sounds like holding therapy or a form of it. I have heard both "arguments" for and against holding therapy, and I have to say I am against it. It doesn't' feel right to me, and it feels SO wrong to me that I just know it must not be right.

I think I have been guilty of using incentive to get my children to do what I want. It's a hard habit to break - I've been so "trained" into using this form of training. I know its because I felt at one point I had to "prove" sometimes to my mother. Healing from that has been freeing, but I still have these habits to break.

[doublyblessed]

Originally Posted by kittywitty

I know many non-mothers who are pro ebf and cosleeping. I don't think parenting is a pre-req for AP.

I am re-reading this book right now. I love it and try to incorporate it but !

kittywitty, let me clarify...my comment above about supernanny not being a mother wasn't intended for ALL women who aren't mothers... it was just about her since she's well known & how unfortunate it is that so many parents look up to her... and also her style of discipline/thinking about dc- their needs and feelings. i also know many women who are not mothers who are supportive of ebf and cosleeping...

:

[foodmachine]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

Sounds like holding therapy or a form of it. I have heard both "arguments" for and against holding therapy, and I have to say I am against it. It doesn't' feel right to me, and it feels SO wrong to me that I just know it must not be right.

Yes, this type of therapy has been abused, but it does have it's place if used correctly, with love. UC love for the child is a pre-req for using this, which means most teachers may not engage in it. There are children (think institutionalized) who thrive from what I call "hug" therapy. The goal is never control but rather comfort and physical affection.

That said if a teacher restrained my child, I'd have the school shut down.

[foodmachine]

Originally Posted by mumkimum

So if I can feel I'm about to yell a Can I stop myself and get myself back in control and help both of us so that I can fulfill my parenting role and assist my child.

The fact you at this forum means you can do this, but it takes practice.

[doublyblessed]

sometimes its SO TOUGH to know how to be with my dd... take last night for example...

we (my mother, dd, ds and i) went to a local salad bar/buffet. my dd was being rude to my mother and i...echoing back what we say, making her hands make a duck-like quack quack quack motion to mock our speaking to her...giving rude responses...very argumentive... i do not know what was going on inside of her... i told my mom that maybe dd is feeling insecure and that was how she was trying to feel her power and have some control in her life...? it was a false confidence so to speak... and she also seemed very over stimulated by the whole environment...its like she couldn't focus. she hardly ate (but of course ate dessert)...she wanted to stand up while eating and if she did sit it was on the side/edge of her seat.

i couldn't get her to get ahold of whatever she was feeling... i tried... i told her i love her...i care about her...what might she be feeling inside...what's going on...i'm here, she can talk to me...she was so hard to reach. i found myself saying i didn't want to be around her or with her if she was going to be so rude and that we'd probably have to forego going to the movies last night together... i felt horrible saying that to her but really, why would i want to hang out so closely if she was being so mean??? i guess that is NOT UPing because it is making her feel alienated and unwanted because of her behavior. but really, in real life other people aren't going to want to be around her if she is so argumentive mean and rude...

i was thinking...ok, mama...what is at the core of this...she needs affection...she needs to know she is secure and loved...and wanted...she needs your attention, undivided and probably just she and you. don't push her away...despite her attitude. my reaction was semi-UP and then also was punitive...threatening to take away the movies together because of how she was acting... truly she was obviously hurting inside...

man this stuff is not easy sometimes!!!

my mom gets annoyed and sarcastic when she is...pulls back as well. my dd KNOWS my mom is bothered by my dd's potty talk about buttholes, etc. and yet my dd keeps doing it over and over again to get a rise out of my mom. what do i do about THAT? my mom knows it is developmentally appropriate for my dd's age but still gets utterly p.o.ed about it... i personally think my MOM needs to not be so reactive when annoyed. geesh i wonder where i got my issues w/ that...

so what could i have done differently??? btw we DID go to the movies and not cuz of her behavior. i realized that despite her attitude i had made it our mama/dd date night and i was not willing to pull that from her.

we had fun. (we saw monsters vs. aliens although it seemed more like a movie for those over 18 IMHO...a lot of stuff i related to having grown up in the 70's and 80's...)

[poiyt]

Is it possible that you were reading her cues incorrectly? (not on purpose of course). Maybe it wasnt that she was feeling insecure, and needed affection - maybe she felt that because she was out with mom and grandma she was a "big" kid and wanted to do things to be independent - and you giving her affection was making her feel like a baby.

Im realizing that, at least with mine, that sometimes I assume I know what she is going through and I act according to my thoughts - but when I really look at my dd and the situation I realize I am reading the cues incorrectly and need to try something else.

[doublyblessed]

wow i never thought if it that way...hmmm. could be that too but i think its a combo of that and insecurity...needing to feel connected to my mom and i moreso.

the last year and a half has been really hard on my dd's and my relationship...i've had some really awful moments of interaction w/ her and its going to take a while to build the trust and reconnect completely...that is why i mentioned i think its insecurity and a hurting girl...i'm also reading connection parenting (which i LOVE) & am getting a lot from that book too. i highly recommend that one...i also noticed in connection parenting the reference to the book 'the explosive child" and that it says its helpful for the easily frustrated and "chonically inflexible" child. that is kind of descriptive of my daughter in how shut down she can be...

so yeah...i think its both...thank you for this take on her behavior...she does get kind of 'bratty'-like when she is feeling like a big girl...i have told her she doesn't need to be rude/bratty-like (like 'miss thang') when she is feeling good about being a big girl. of course she probably doesn't get that and i probably shouldn't say that...yes, you are right on re. the reasons for her behavior...

i have realized i shouldn't have 'threatened' (cuz that was, basically) to not go to the movies together...& i shouldn't have even told her that i didn't want to be w/ her...that is punitive and w/holding...that doesn't make a child feel wanted/loved...she obviously needed to feel loved and important...i'm glad we went despite what i threatened and how she acted.

Originally Posted by poiyt

Is it possible that you were reading her cues incorrectly? (not on purpose of course). Maybe it wasnt that she was feeling insecure, and needed affection - maybe she felt that because she was out with mom and grandma she was a "big" kid and wanted to do things to be independent - and you giving her affection was making her feel like a baby.

Im realizing that, at least with mine, that sometimes I assume I know what she is going through and I act according to my thoughts - but when I really look at my dd and the situation I realize I am reading the cues incorrectly and need to try something else.

[doublyblessed]

looky what i just found googling 'hold therapy', since we were on that subject and i think its important and relevant to our discussion...

http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt...g_therapy.html

btw, jan hunt lives in the town right below mine!!! i think i should go meet her!!! i LOVE her site and her passion... :

i found the part Odent wrote: "Such dissimulation is at the core of the sociopathic personality." it totally confirms how i felt about an ex boyfriend of mine who exhibited sociopathic personality traits...he would restrain me from behind when i'd try to get him to leave, break up w/ him, refuse to converse with him about something...i'd wind up freaking out and hitting him over the head w/ the phone/threatening to call 911... i stayed in that relationship 2 years because i could not get him to stay away from me. he insisted we are soul mates...he still looks me up now and then and its been since 1992 when we first met...nuts!!!

i forget who i had talked to about my being disturbed and changing my mind about my dd's teacher doing this 'hold therapy' on her...but they said no, that its different when the child isn't being treated how i was w/ my ex boyfriend...that the dynamics are different and she doesn't have that sort of experience triggering her... now i definitely know my doubts about it are valid and my instinct was right on. i had told the teacher when she asked if it was alright that she do this...insisting it was so great for kids who are having a hard time and who, as she insisted 'really really benefit from this...they resist what they need so very much'. i felt it was hogwash then and now i KNOW it is definitely so. this is ludacrous. i want to tell her not to do this to my dd anymore but i fear offending her and creating a weirdness in our relationship... i figure my dd only has 2 months til she 'graduates' from kindergarten so then it will be over... this holding therapy is so screwed up IMHO. why'd i agree to that. i can be such a wimp sometimes...letting others just tell me what they think is 'the way' and my just going ah huh like i agree and its ok when i believe differently. sigh. i'm sooo glad i found this article!!! i do not wish to be passive anymore w/ issues such as this.

[Materfamilias]

nak
yeah, i'd be pretty weirded out and annoyed if someone did that with my dd while i was there and she obviously wanted to come to me... :

[AngelBee]

:

[foodmachine]

Just to clarify my PP. I agree a child should never be held against their will (except in the the case of harm coming to themselves or someone else.)Games of "hug" tag and the like can however be very good for kids who don't get hugs at home. Instead of just tagging the person who's it, you have to hug them. The toughest kids in the class laugh so hard getting caught and then love catching the grown-ups and giving the hugs they normally would be to "cool" to give.

[mommabear207]

[QUOTE=doublyblessed i want to tell her not to do this to my dd anymore but i fear offending her and creating a weirdness in our relationship... i figure my dd only has 2 months til she 'graduates' from kindergarten so then it will be over... this holding therapy is so screwed up IMHO. [/QUOTE]

it sounds like your reasoning that 2 months isn't very long so the number of holding episodes shouldn't be too many however also in two months you won't have to deal with this teacher anyways. i think you should look out for your dds interests and tell the teacher not to hold therapy with her. IMO.i'd rather not have my dc go though such experiences rather than let it happen so i don't possibly offend a teacher i won't even see in two months.

[mommabear207]

Originally Posted by dogretro

After reading the beginning of this book, I am really noticing when other people praise my daughter and it is getting on my nerves! She has been praised for crawling and for trying to walk ~ wtf??? Every time someone tells her "good job" I want to tell them to shut up! I know it's not damaging or anything for her to hear it in passing from others, but it is DANG ANNOYING. Anyone else noticing how much other people praise their kids now when you didn't before?

I've been noticing this A LOT too! I also barely resist the urge to make some snarky comment back...also people say things like ie the wic lady "shouldn't you be a good boy and pick those toys up, go be a good boy or mom will be upset with you"!!!

[poiyt]

Yeah - its the other people praising dd that i dont know how to stop. I know they arent doing it to be malicious or to try to manipulate her, thats just what they do...but on the other hand I know they are saying it to try to get her to do it more, or to encourage that behaviour - so that is manipulation...manipulation just has a negative ring to it, and I dont think they are doing it negatively...yk?

I wish I could get everyone to read this book...or at least this part...

Has anyone had any success trying to teach people more UP ways of dealing with your kids...IE...how do I tell nana to stop saying "good girl" or teaching lessons like "when we share at nana's house it means your being good, so nana will buy you more things" ug!

[doublyblessed]

Originally Posted by poiyt

Yeah - its the other people praising dd that i dont know how to stop. I know they arent doing it to be malicious or to try to manipulate her, thats just what they do...but on the other hand I know they are saying it to try to get her to do it more, or to encourage that behaviour - so that is manipulation...manipulation just has a negative ring to it, and I dont think they are doing it negatively...yk?

I wish I could get everyone to read this book...or at least this part...

Has anyone had any success trying to teach people more UP ways of dealing with your kids...IE...how do I tell nana to stop saying "good girl" or teaching lessons like "when we share at nana's house it means your being good, so nana will buy you more things" ug!

i'm working on my mother (she lives w/ us) but she is extremely reactive and goes into worry/panic mode easily... i also can't STAND when others praise/punish my dc like that either... "he looks like a good baby..." and so forth. ick! how to handle this??? someone once told me that since WE are the primary adults in our dc's lives whatever other adults say doesn't matter much to our dc as long as WE are loving them unconditionally.

i think that manipulation from adults IS negative...even though they might not be conscious of it...it still is manipulative and negative and for their/our best interest...makes it about US. ridiculous! i want this madness to stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i have said something like 'oh she/he always is!' but i'd like to say something more specific to make them go huh? 'oh she is always a good girl...no matter how she behaves...'. that will get them thinking! have you guys seen jan hunt's shirts for sale on www.naturalchild.com? i have the one "i behave as well as i am treated". my dd does'nt wear it unfortunately but she's not too into t-shirts...i want to buy another for her though...maybe jan will make her one on a shirt my dd likes...i'm sure she would! jan's awesome! (and she lives in the next town down from me!) ;o)~

if anyone has any suggestions i'd love to hear them too...

[doublyblessed]

ok...now w/ my mother, i'm struggling w/ the same feeling i had when i was w/ my ex (my ds' father) when i'd be UPing my dd...

i feel like lately she's withholding love/guilt tripping w/ silent treatment with my dd and with me. yesterday, i needed her to go get my pain medicine for my pulled wisdom tooth...she knew this...but she took her sweet time getting dressed AND she dyed her hair also...i was thinking wtf?! it hurt and it felt just awful in my heart. i felt she was definitely trying to 'prove' something... i wondered if she was resentful of me for something...she has been the one to provide for our family, she brings home the bacon w/ her alimony check and her f/t job as a assisted living caregiver. i am a SAHM to my kids...

so i think sometimes she resents this...esp when she's stressing over us being so poor. she's used to being much more wealthy...and its hard for her not being able to just go out and buy what she/we need(s). so she takes it out on us...w/ these silent treatments & sarcastic nasty attitudes she gets...

this morning she is visibly overwhelmed...from when she first got up 'til now, which is an hour and a half later...she's been snippy w/ my dd and making what i call sarcastic remarks but maybe i'd be better off calling them smart ass remarks...? un-sincere replies to my dd and i that are obviously sarcasm and annoyance expressed yet in 'kind' wording...if that makes sense....?

this is reminding me of when i was w/ my ex, as i said... i'm doing the UPing thing...riding out my dd's 'negative' comments (ie. "dumb dogs!" when my moms dogs are underfoot... or "nanny! don't do the dishes! do the laundry nanny! mama and i are going to do the dishes! nanny, stop!")

*note: i am not supposed to lift heavy things since i got my tooth pulled out yesterday...so i'm trying to limit what i pick up/carry)...

so my mom comes back and speaks to her, obviously very annoyed w/ her attitude and says "M, they are NOT dumb dogs." or "M, the dishes are already done. and the laundry will get done too." i assure my dd kindly that there will be PLENTY more dirty dishes for us to do together...believe me! i think my dd is hurting from my mothers' attitude & therefore 'biting back' w/ her 'bossy' words. my mother can't stand it. and i don't say much about my dd's comments...i just am trying to let it ride. talking to her about it in the moment won't do much good...and she should be able to talk how she needs to talk...she is obviously hurting and confused as far as i can see. i am too! but i'm not 6.5 yo.

this reminds me soooo much of the ex and i when we lived w/ him. i'd be silent, loving my dd the UPing way and the ex would be looking at my dd like she was some sort of alien or bug on his skin that he wanted to be rid of. he'd yell QUIT! and STOP! & look at me like why don't you discipline this brat...like i'm spoiling her. one time i came up to the bedroom and going on in our family bed he's freaking out on my dd...he even yelled at her cuz she wouldn't stop slapping his arm or something...i asked her to stop but she kept on doing it...and then the both of us F-YOU!!! F-YOUUUUU!!! he looked like he was going to punch...he had his fist back and his elbow bent like he was holding it back...he obviously wanted to let loose on us...and when i asked him to leave he told us that it was HIS house. (we never married, thank the universe..........and actually, its the BANKS, i wanted to say...and the BANK is taking it from him any day now...karma's a b*tch sometimes...)

anyway this is reminding me of MY silence....my loving my dd and letting her be while in the midst of her 'behavior' however it is expressed...and how annoyed the other primary adult gets.......i shouldn't feel guilt, i know.....but its their reactions that make it hard to live w/...what shall i do??? my mom knows i'm trying to UP more and more and more strongly...

***i have edited this after much ponderance...(is that a word?! ah...sounds good to me!) that i cannot change others...including my ex (which i already know since i left him in the dust when son was 35 wx in utero...) & now, my mother...whether she lives w/ us or not...i can't make her be a UPing grandma to my dc. she goes back and forth to agreeing w/ me on UPing. she is reading 'raising your spirited child' but i kind of feel she still blames the CHILD (my dd.....me as a child...) & doesn't look enough at her OWN attitude.

i have also noticed something while i was pondering this since i last posted this post...my dd totally is happy and content...i can see it in her...and it is with ME when i'm right on w/ the UPing...she is NOT like this most of the time lately w/ my mother. this is because, and i TRULY BELIEVE, my mother is CPing. she is withholding love and is visibly annoyed...

my dd and i are doing so great!!! it makes my heart swell with love... oh yes, my cup runneth over.

my dd wants to go to mymeebas.com now so i gotta scadaddle. ;O)

[foodmachine]

RE: what others say to our kids.
Naomi Aldort says "teach no one but yourself", meaning that we can model to others what we are looking for. If MIL says something I think is eck, I generally rephrase it to DD. MIL is pretty quick and wants to learn so I have this in my favor.
I remember saying a little girl was "cute" once and the Mom turned to the girl and said, "you are tough". I got the message.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Originally Posted by foodmachine

RE: what others say to our kids.
Naomi Aldort says "teach no one but yourself", meaning that we can model to others what we are looking for. If MIL says something I think is eck, I generally rephrase it to DD. MIL is pretty quick and wants to learn so I have this in my favor.
I remember saying a little girl was "cute" once and the Mom turned to the girl and said, "you are tough". I got the message.

this is just want I was going to say, but in better words. It does bother me when people keeps saying good job but I bite my tongue.

I am president of my son's school's PTA and we did a fundraiser and the whole time I kept hearing "good job" everytime the child won the game. they would ask what they won and they would say "cotton candy" which they were getting anyway and the older kids caught onto this and said "so we are getting 2 cotton candies?" I just told them when they asked what they won I said "you got the frog in the bucket. Thats hard to do. I've only seen it done a few times today"