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Do you prefer a family Hierarchy or Consensuality? Updated! - Page 6

Poll Results: Family Dynamics: Hierarchy or Consensuality?

 
  • 2% (17)
    Definite hierarchy with rules, strict structure; decisions made on behalf of children.
  • 29% (176)
    Hierarchy with guidelines, routine, soft structure; most decisions made for children.
  • 9% (56)
    Consensual family; decisions round table, children are self determining; few or no rules.
  • 10% (61)
    Mostly Consensual; guidelines, choice where possible, highly structured
  • 45% (277)
    Combo; children know their place in hierarchy but have as much freedom as poss within that structure
  • 2% (18)
    I don't know what you are talking about.
605 Total Votes  
post #101 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
It's not about getting into "things she's not allowed". It's about getting into the spices. She does put spices into cooking (when she wants to, which she often doesn't). She doesn't like pretending with fake spices, because she eats the spices. She explores all kinds of other things. She wants to eat the spices. She's not allowed to do so, without getting permission, and getting my help in getting them out. She doesn't see that as reasonable (being not-quite-6, she doesn't grasp the importance of not spilling $5.00 worth of spices into my coffee press, because she wants to eat $0.10 worth of fennel seed, yk?).

So...she thinks she should be allowed to climb the counter and eat the spices. I don't. There's no consensus to be had, and it's simply not possible to always honour the need for independence in a child this young (I know, as I was the one who used to wander out of the yard every time mom and dad lost sight of me for 3 seconds).
yes I know. You can make edible fake spices I'm sure! You are looking at the surface problem not the underlying need. You are bringing specifics to the table, not needs.

examples:
specific : wanting to color on the walls
need: need an exiting artistic outlet

specific: wanting to eat spices
need: wanting to explore flavor, perhaps culinary skills, perhaps something as simple as cause and effect (she knows going after the spices gets a certain reaction from you) It could be a number of things of course, your child know, and you could figure it out. PS - its 110% okay if you don't want to though! You are doing what works for your family. I am just explaining that no, CL does not mean children rule the roost, or that everyone gets what they want - but everyone will get what they need and all their feelings and desires will be considered valid even if they can't be granted. This is in no way putting down your parenting, I am just defending CL because it seems that everyone wants to base CL on the way some people practice it without realizing that their family consensus is different from the next families consensus. IT doesnt make one person "more CL" then another family just because they are more child-led then another family.


I am willing to explain anything to you that you are confused about, but it's very hard to debate something I understand and practice with someone who not only does not understand or practice it, but is seemingly unwilling to understand it. It's like saying "I know what italy looks like even though I've never been there, and am unwilling to look at pictures, but I know other people who have been there and I'm basing my opinion on what they said about it, and so what you say you have seen doesn't sound like italy to me... maybe you went to spain? that sounds like what people I know say spain looks like. and no I don't want to see the pictures you took while you were there because that will not help me see what it looks like"
post #102 of 1044
This all makes my head spin, but honestly, and this is a serious question, what is truly wrong with at times just saying no, and it is no because I don't want you to do that?

Maybe I just don't have the time or the patience, but I don't see it being realistic for every issue that comes up to have a sit down conversation about it and writing the pros and cons of the underlying cause and getting to figure out some why to eventually make the kid happy.

If my kid wants to get into something they can't, it is NO and that has to be enough sometimes. I guess I don't see it being a huge benefit when I can't have a sit down conversation with my boss about every little thing I don't agree with. I don't get to aruge with teachers about why I FEEL a certain way, and it has to be taught to my kids eventually that they don't have that option either.

I have often said to my son "if you don't like how your teacher is running the class, go to college, get a degree and teach kids yourself, you will get to be the one to make the rules then, until that time, learn to Stop, think, listen and if it is a major issue, approach the teacher in a respectful way, but except that you will get nothing out of it, but saying your peace." He hasn't gone to a teacher once, but he is learning that sometimes you just have to do what you are told to do and you can't expect explinations or a say in a lot of it.
post #103 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
It's not about getting into "things she's not allowed". It's about getting into the spices. She does put spices into cooking (when she wants to, which she often doesn't). She doesn't like pretending with fake spices, because she eats the spices. She explores all kinds of other things. She wants to eat the spices. She's not allowed to do so, without getting permission, and getting my help in getting them out. She doesn't see that as reasonable (being not-quite-6, she doesn't grasp the importance of not spilling $5.00 worth of spices into my coffee press, because she wants to eat $0.10 worth of fennel seed, yk?).

So...she thinks she should be allowed to climb the counter and eat the spices. I don't. There's no consensus to be had, and it's simply not possible to always honour the need for independence in a child this young (I know, as I was the one who used to wander out of the yard every time mom and dad lost sight of me for 3 seconds).
I totally see where you are coming from, whcih is why I picked combo LOL. To me, it's about teaching them to expect respect and respect others. Sometimes that means we negotiate a consensus, and sometimes they get their way, and sometimes I or DH have to just say 'this is the way it is'. I do avoid doing that whenever possible, but there are times you just have to do something a certain way and negotiating with a child who doesn't comprehend reason and logic Just.Doesn't.Cut.It. YKWIM? I don't buy it that a kiddo has an underlying emotional need to climb counters. To me, validating their wants is an important part of basic parenting, and has nothing to do with CL. I validate my infant when she screams hysterically because she has to be in the car seat. Doesn't change much, but I do love on her and tell her I know she doesn't like it etc. We sing to her while driving, we make it as pleasant as possible, but she cries EVERY time. Some things just have to happen. :
post #104 of 1044
I understand the underlying needs thing - not sure why you think I don't.

(She doesn't want/need fake edible spices. This is about spices (or, occasionally, a square of dark chocolate - but usually spices). I don't know about you, but when I'm craving ice cream, someone determining that my underlying need is for calcium and offering me low-fat mozza isn't going to cut it, yk?)

What I don't get is how any of this is "consensual". I also don't get how everyone's needs can possibly be met, when those needs do, in fact, come into conflict. That's not just the kids not having their needs met, either - it goes both ways. When they need mama's attention, and mama needs to sleep/rest/grieve/journal/whatever, it's frequently mama's needs that don't get met.

I have never, irl, seen a family in which everyone's needs are being met. I hear about them here on occasion, and that's it. However, the other CL (possibly TCS - many seem to use them interchangably) families I've seen here do seem to be claiming to achieve actual consensus on things. So, I don't get how that works, but they do claim that it does. You're not talking about CL in that sense, but still calling it "consensual". So, yeah - the term confuses me. If everyone doesn't agree, then it's not consensus. If everyone's needs aren't being met, then it's not consensual. So...confused, yeah.

Oh - and you said in analyzing the underlying need when dd gets into the spices that "your child know". I'm not sure what you meant there. If you talk to dd about the climbing on the counter, you're not going to get anything beyond, "I wanted spices" (or maybe, "I wanted a cinnamon stick").
post #105 of 1044
There is nothing wrong with doing what works for your family phrogger. For my family, CL takes less time then "laying down the law" we are addressing underlying needs, not specifics. its not like we spend every second of every day making lists or negotiating or trying to reach a consensus. We are pretty new to CL but I find less need to discipline (even though my needs have not changed AND my needs are now being met!) I have more cooperation, my children move on from things faster, they are more considerate, and it takes less time overall. Yes, when necessary it sometimes takes more time then "laying down the law". This works for my family. It's right for us. It doesn't need to be right for anyone else. I am willing to be the change I want to see in the world, and I want that for my children too. If my children want to approach their teachers then that is okay with me! It's okay to be different. Its okay to speak up when others don't.

At my sons school there is a teacher, with whom we have become mentors to each other, but he has the children critique his teaching.
post #106 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
There is nothing wrong with doing what works for your family phrogger. For my family, CL takes less time then "laying down the law" we are addressing underlying needs, not specifics. its not like we spend every second of every day making lists or negotiating or trying to reach a consensus. We are pretty new to CL but I find less need to discipline (even though my needs have not changed AND my needs are now being met!) I have more cooperation, my children move on from things faster, they are more considerate, and it takes less time overall. Yes, when necessary it sometimes takes more time then "laying down the law". This works for my family. It's right for us. It doesn't need to be right for anyone else. I am willing to be the change I want to see in the world, and I want that for my children too. If my children want to approach their teachers then that is okay with me! It's okay to be different. Its okay to speak up when others don't.

At my sons school there is a teacher, with whom we have become mentors to each other, but he has the children critique his teaching.

That still doesn't answer the question as to WHY it isn't ok to just say no. I am trying to understand your way of thinking because it isn't making sense to me from the small snippets I am reading from you.

Let me rephrase, why is the CL parenting style your perferred method and what are the key differences you see in a CL parenting style and a more hierarchy/dictatorship type parenting style.
post #107 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Oh - and you said in analyzing the underlying need when dd gets into the spices that "your child know". I'm not sure what you meant there. If you talk to dd about the climbing on the counter, you're not going to get anything beyond, "I wanted spices" (or maybe, "I wanted a cinnamon stick").

Wouldn't the underlying need be that they have no impulse control and if they get something into their heads they will go to the ends of the earth to get what they want and sometimes you as the mom have to stop them and basically teach them how to control their impulses?

The underlying problem is the kid doesn't know how to stop themselves from getting what they want.
post #108 of 1044
No I don't know. This is what my midwives did for me lol. Yes, I still wanted the dang ice cream, but with time upping my calcium intake did meet my underlying need for calcium.

All needs can be met, even if not met at the same time. I can meet my need for rest and my child's need for attention even if I don't get all those needs met on the spot. I find my needs are getting met more frequently now that we are more consensual though. I also notice my children trying to help me meet my needs (oh did my son bless me the other morning in this regard! had I been sitting in a chair at the time I would have fallen out of it!)
TCS and CL are not the same. I guess thats why its upsetting to me when people use them interchangeable. you can be TCS and CL but you dont have to be TCS to be CL.

have you asked why she wanted a cinnamon stick? I am not in your family so I cannot decide the consensus for you.

consensus means agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group as a whole.

We can reach an opinion as whole even if we aren't all 100% happy with what that overall consensus comes to. We can be in agreement on what the judgment of the situation is, even when we aren't getting out way. I don't know if I am explaining this well... sorry!
post #109 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by phrogger View Post
That still doesn't answer the question as to WHY it isn't ok to just say no. I am trying to understand your way of thinking because it isn't making sense to me from the small snippets I am reading from you.

Let me rephrase, why is the CL parenting style your perferred method and what are the key differences you see in a CL parenting style and a more hierarchy/dictatorship type parenting style.
I thought I did. It IS okay for YOU to just say no. We don't need to do that to have our children cooperate. Our family dynamics is different then yours. neither way is wrong - we both have children who cooperate more often then not

why is the CL parenting style your perferred method and what are the key differences you see in a CL parenting style and a more hierarchy/dictatorship type parenting style.

I feel it ultimately is the most respectful method towards all members in the house, I feel it better prepares them to be successful and true to themselves at the same time in a world of in the box thinkers how they can be out of the box thinkers in a healthy way. And also the hierarchy parenting style just created lots of power struggles and not a lot of compliance. (Again, I am speaking of in MY family. I am not saying that method equals more power struggles and less cooperation, I'm saying that is just what happened when *we* used that approach in the past)

Leaning more towards CL I have noticed more compliance, and that I am even able to gain compliance in areas what had once been "battles I would not pick" Everyone is happier, everyone's needs get met, our connection is stronger, there is more cooperation, and more respect. That is why CL is preffered in our family, though I am still learning to fully embrace this!!! Which does not mean agreeing with TCS it just means embracing the approach more and having more faith in the areas I didn't before. Bit by bit. I let more of my controlling ways, and I gain more compliance. My children's attitudes have changed so much overall that less issues arise because they are in just a more "agreeable mood" then they used to be (and again, this can surely be achieved for other people using a different approach! For us there is also an underlying thought process that reflects more on how we are achieving compliance and less on outward results, though I wont like, the outward results are very encouraging... I was brought up with praise and punishment so I can't help but prefer CL when it works better! I admit, at this point in my journey I am not sure how I would feel without the outward motivators, and perhaps that is where I differ from other CL mamas who I admire)
post #110 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by phrogger View Post
Wouldn't the underlying need be that they have no impulse control and if they get something into their heads they will go to the ends of the earth to get what they want and sometimes you as the mom have to stop them and basically teach them how to control their impulses?

The underlying problem is the kid doesn't know how to stop themselves from getting what they want.
a need for impulses and tools to control their impulses! yes that is a need! though often if they are having a hard time receiving help in this area, there is yet another deeper need that needs to be met first
post #111 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
No I don't know. This is what my midwives did for me lol. Yes, I still wanted the dang ice cream, but with time upping my calcium intake did meet my underlying need for calcium.
Yeah, but...my desire for ice cream has little or nothing to do with my need for calcium. I can have the calcium and still want the ice cream. DD can have the ability to climb, explore, eat diverse foods (oh, I wish!), help cook, etc. and still want to eat fennel seeds, cardamom pods or cinnamon sticks.

Quote:
TCS and CL are not the same. I guess thats why its upsetting to me when people use them interchangeable. you can be TCS and CL but you dont have to be TCS to be CL.
Then, I guess I still don't understand what's consensual about it.

Quote:
have you asked why she wanted a cinnamon stick? I am not in your family so I cannot decide the consensus for you.
She wanted a cinnamon stick, because she likes cinnamon sticks.

Quote:
consensus means agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group as a whole.

We can reach an opinion as whole even if we aren't all 100% happy with what that overall consensus comes to. We can be in agreement on what the judgment of the situation is, even when we aren't getting out way. I don't know if I am explaining this well... sorry!
I'm still not seeing where the agreement comes into this. If she's not allowed on the counter, and that's where she wants to be, then there's no consensus. She's not allowed on the counter, and she's not allowed to waste the spices, and that's what she wants to do. The bottom line is that she likes to play in real spices, and sample real spices, and we can't afford the waste.

Anyway, if this works for your family, that's great. To be honest, the more people describe it, the less consensual, and the less workable, it sounds.
post #112 of 1044
exactly - your desire for ice cream is valid, your need for calcium can be met. desires valid, needs meetable.

CL: onsensual Living, CL, is a philosophy derived from the principles of consensus decision-making which advocates a consent-based approach to conflict resolution. The process of finding solutions in this model usually includes the communication of individual needs and the brainstorming of possible solution which will successfully address the needs of all parties, based on finding a common preference. It may also be confused with Taking Children Seriously, TCS, a parenting and educational philosophy which, like CL, rejects the use of parental coercion and views coercive acts as psychologically harmful to the child. Consensual Living differs from TCS primarily in its preference for moral relativism and its rejection of the error-correcting method of determining objective truth as put forward by Karl Popper.
moral relativism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

Yep cinnamon sticks are yummy. She desires a cinnamon stick. This could be a case where its not about a need, but just a desire. HEr desire could possibly be met : Cinnamon sticks are expenseive so you aren't willing to let her eat them whenever she wants. Does she have any ideas of something that might work for both of you. Would you be okay with her having one cinnamon stick a month. Can you pick out a special day on the calendar. Does she like other cinnamon things - flavors, scents, etc. And is there an underlying meed that is being missed (I miss they all the time myself, sometimes I catch them in retrospect - it is hard when they are at that age that they have a hard tim seperating needs from wants!)

you are still looking at the surface. It's very workable in our family, and very consensual. I just feel that you are looking at if from the wrong direction, and you are unwilling to look at it from any other direction so I am unsure how to help you understand. You dont want to understand, you want to convince me that its not consensual.

I keep hearing this:
"I know what italy looks like even though I've never been there, and am unwilling to look at pictures, but I know other people who have been there and I'm basing my opinion on what they said about it, and so what you say you have seen doesn't sound like italy to me... maybe you went to spain? that sounds like what people I know say spain looks like. and no I don't want to see the pictures you took while you were there because that will not help me see what it looks like" so I'll just agree to disagree with you are this point. You dont understand consensual living, never practiced it, and never read about it - but you are sure that what I am doing is not that, and is not workable. I really don't need flying lessons from a scuba instructer. Similarly, someone who doesn't want to learn to fly doesn't need a consultation with a flight instructer

I said "consensus means agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group as a whole.

We can reach an opinion as whole even if we aren't all 100% happy with what that overall consensus comes to. We can be in agreement on what the judgment of the situation is, even when we aren't getting out way. I don't know if I am explaining this well... sorry!"

perhaps I should have said We can reach an opinion as whole even if we aren't all 100% happy with what that overall consensus comes to. OR We can be in agreement on what the judgment of the situation is, even when we aren't getting out way.

Example:
DH and I agreed that we would not vaccinate. He wanted to, I didn't. We discussed it. He isn't 100% happy with the overall consensus but we did reach this opinion/choice as a whole considering everyone's feelings on the subject. I wanted to buy an SUV for a family car. DH wanted to buy a classic car. I dont think that is practical. But I am in agreement with the judgment made in the situation, because I agree/understand/know that he is the one who drives the car, I dont even have a license, we do already have a more "practical" car. so no, its not the car I picked, but yes, I am in agreement with his decision.
post #113 of 1044
Consensual living, as I've always heard it defined, and as it's defined here: http://www.consensual-living.com/ is based on always finding a mutually agreeable solution to any disagreement and making sure everyone's wants and needs are met. Your definition is way different than any I've seen.
post #114 of 1044
mamazee the definition I used was copy pasted from that site. It is totally in line with what I think, and also, the book I said earlier is suggested reading from that sight - the book that you said does not sound like CL based based on what you think CL is, is in fact, one of the CL recommended books!

Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone’s wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties.

(((needs considered, addressed, does not say they are always met - mutually agreeable solutions are found)))
((( wants and needs are equally valid and discussed. solution are created which meet the underlying needs
doesn't say everyone's wants are met.)))
post #115 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
mamazee the definition I used was copy pasted from that site. It is totally in line with what I think, and also, the book I said earlier is suggested reading from that sight - the book that you said does not sound like CL based based on what you think CL is, is in fact, one of the CL recommended books!
They might recommend it as a parenting book, but that doesn't mean it's CL. They don't look for mutually agreeable solutions, which is a cornerstone of CL.
post #116 of 1044
yes that book does look for mutually agreeable solutions and has at least 1 whole chapter on such!
post #117 of 1044
They also show the mom staring at her kid and saying something like, "Mark, your shoes!" and pointing at shoes. It's about ways to communicate with kids largely to get kids to do what you want.
post #118 of 1044
staring at her kid? really? I must have missed that part where they say "stare at your kid and say xyz in order to ensure that they do xyz" that is not the vibe I got at all. I heard them saying we need to give credit to our childs intelligence and realize that we can say one word to them and that they can figure out what we are asking. I hear them saying, lets respect that our children have busy minds and may only want to tune in for one or two words. [/I]I also hear them saying they will do it themselves if their child doesnt and let their child know how they feel about doing it themselves instead of the child fulfilling the request for cooperation.

You may not want to practice CL. that is fine. and I don't claim to be CL, just leaning more towards that direction. However, I think you could respect that consensual living looks different in every family. If not, that is okay too, but I am not going to debate with you about it. Why does it matter. I dont care what you call what I do it works for my family. I dont care what you call what you do - it works for your family. You want to call my parenting the poopy parenting approach I am okay with that! I am just merely basing what I say my parenting leans towards based on the definition provided at consensual-living.com. Perhaps you disagree. Perhaps you want to disagree. But either way, we can agree to disagree. Well, I can anyway
post #119 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
Yep cinnamon sticks are yummy. She desires a cinnamon stick. This could be a case where its not about a need, but just a desire. HEr desire could possibly be met : Cinnamon sticks are expenseive so you aren't willing to let her eat them whenever she wants. Does she have any ideas of something that might work for both of you. Would you be okay with her having one cinnamon stick a month. Can you pick out a special day on the calendar. Does she like other cinnamon things - flavors, scents, etc. And is there an underlying meed that is being missed (I miss they all the time myself, sometimes I catch them in retrospect - it is hard when they are at that age that they have a hard tim seperating needs from wants!)
DD can have a cinnamon stick whenever she wants. She cannot climb up on the counter, and go through the spice cupboard herself. Last time she did it, while I was in the bathroom, I came out to find her opening the packet of saffron. While I can certainly afford to restock cinnamon sticks, I can't afford to regularly restock saffron, yk? DD is a very independent-minded little girl (much like I was at that age), but she does not understand why we have the rules we have about climbing on the counter (safety, and waste). I've discussed/explained them multiple times, but we're not getting anywhere.

Quote:
"I know what italy looks like even though I've never been there, and am unwilling to look at pictures, but I know other people who have been there and I'm basing my opinion on what they said about it, and so what you say you have seen doesn't sound like italy to me... maybe you went to spain? that sounds like what people I know say spain looks like. and no I don't want to see the pictures you took while you were there because that will not help me see what it looks like" so I'll just agree to disagree with you are this point.
You're not talking about showing me pictures of Italy. You're expounding a definition of consensual living that's at odds with every other definition of it that I've heard here...and I used to spend a lot of time on the gentle discipline board, reading many, many, many posts on the subject. No - I haven't read the books. I have, however, read hundreds of posts from people who practice consensual living, and none of them described what you're describing.

Quote:
You dont understand consensual living, never practiced it, and never read about it - but you are sure that what I am doing is not that, and is not workable.
I've read about it. I just haven't read the books you're talking about. I can get information from places other than books.

I also missed where I said that what you're doing isn't workable. It doesn't sound like consensual living, as every other CL mama I've seen here has defined CL. It sounds totally workable. CL, the way I've seen it defined by everyone else, does not sound workable to me.

Quote:
I said "consensus means agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group as a whole.
I honestly have no idea what "agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group" even means. I've re-read it a dozen times, and it's not making any more sense to me than it did the first time.
post #120 of 1044
im sorry it doesn't make sense to you.

let me try to meet you on your level. here are what some moms from around the web have said about consensual living:

"from what I have understood so far, consensual living doesn’t mean that noone every has to do something that they don’t want to do, but it does mean that everyone’s needs are considered and everyone has a say in the decision making process. Ultimately, while not everyone will necessarily be happy with every decision, they should be able to agree on a compromise that is best for everyone."

and

"Maybe I’m wrong, then, in thinking that consensual living and the “taking children seriously” philosophy are the same thing? Your description of consensual living sounds more along the lines of Kohn’s “Unconditional Parenting” (which, to be fair, I haven’t finished yet, so maybe I should reserve judgement on it, but so far I more or less agree with him). The TCS philosophy is, from what I’ve read, a literal no-coercion approach - your child does nothing unless they want to do it."

maybe they explained it better. IDK. CL looks different in every family, and as I said, we lean that way but havent fully embraced it. What we are doing BY DEFINITION provided on the CL website is consensual living. Other CL mamas may have definitions of what CL looks like in *their* family though. So the way we practice it in my family sounds workable to you, so therefore it must not be CL since other CL approaches don't seem workable to you. I am sorry I am unable to understand that reasoning as it seems, well, unreasonable!

agreement in the judgment.... I gave an example, but basically to be in agreement of the judgement would be to say we got a car that wasn't the car I wanted. we didnt agree on the car we got, but we agreed that the judgment that my husband pick the car since he drives and I don't and the car was more for him was the right judgement for our family. Opinion reached by a group would mean that while some of us like red and some of us like blue, our opinion as a whole may be more purply. it maye be a blueish purple, or a redish purple. Or it may just be read or blue. But our opinion is colored (if you will) by the opinions of the GROUP. and our decisions are based on that. my definition may be at odds with how other have expressed their understanding of it - but my definition is just what I read from consensual living.com.

I am yet to meet a person who doesn't understand how mathmatically 40 weeks is equal to 9 1/2 months not 10 (please if anyone understands this speak up so I dont feel so alone!) and yet, it is still fact. While every person so far I have spoken to online feels that 40 weeks equals exactly 10 months that does not mean it is so. A month is a little over 4 weeks (except february) and therefore 40 weeks is a little under 10 months.

Now, in my experience, every CL mama who has ever defined CL to me has sounded very different from every other CL mama who has defined CL. I always accepted this because CL looks different for every family.
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