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Do you prefer a family Hierarchy or Consensuality? Updated! - Page 44

Poll Results: Family Dynamics: Hierarchy or Consensuality?

 
  • 2% (17)
    Definite hierarchy with rules, strict structure; decisions made on behalf of children.
  • 29% (176)
    Hierarchy with guidelines, routine, soft structure; most decisions made for children.
  • 9% (56)
    Consensual family; decisions round table, children are self determining; few or no rules.
  • 10% (61)
    Mostly Consensual; guidelines, choice where possible, highly structured
  • 45% (277)
    Combo; children know their place in hierarchy but have as much freedom as poss within that structure
  • 2% (18)
    I don't know what you are talking about.
605 Total Votes  
post #861 of 1044
"Had my mom asked me 5 years ago I would have agreed with her, and said it was sincere, so really believe that only self can understand with certainty how they feel or think about a certain thing, and also that with time those thoughts and feelings can change as they finally start to have confidence *in that area* that they didn't have growing up because of their limits."

You chose a different word, one you believe is positive but by labeling your child at all aren't you doing the same thing you feel your mom and sewchris should not do?

"Id get my child out of that role. but thats just *me*."

If the child is self determined and did not want that role they would not accept it thought right?

"She just gave me the drive to seek those tools out. I would hope my child would not stay with anyone who uses negative terms to describe their personality. Of course I want my children to think I did right by them (not just say it) but I also want to ACTUALLY do right by them. I don't want them to think it was right just because they trust I love them. I want them to be able to trust I love them, but if I went wrong somewhere along the way be able to admit that, instead of trying to accept it *must* have been right because they know I loved them."

It is my belief that most parents "ACTUALLY" want to do right by their children. I think is as likely for a child raised by parents practicing CL to question their parents beliefs and methods as it is of other parenting philosophies. What if your child, when they are older, does not agree when you tell them all their wants were met and they were responsible for every decision they ever made from the time they were infants? Some adults do believe in blame and responsibility and they may not agree that a young child is self determining.
I have a friend who was raised by very loving parents who were very hands off in their parenting style. They wanted their children to discover their truths on their own. My friend wishes there had been rules. She got into alot of trouble she feels she could have avoided. She does not think her parents were bad parents but she parents her children differently.
post #862 of 1044
A child would have to self determine not to be self determining so I guess that doesn't make sense to me.

I don't mind if my children see themselves in a positive light. I wouldnt want them to see themselves as defiant though. If they thought they were anyway, thats up to them, but I will not cast a shadow over my child.
post #863 of 1044
Thread Starter 
The interesting thing about labels is that what is positive to one person isn't necessarily positive to another. Labels are limiting, whether we say we are are "nice people" or "nasty people", we are still stuck. We have still been defined.

I have done nice.

I have done nasty.

If a child is called nice, ie, "you ARE nice", that can set them up for problems. The other issue with it is that it takes away choice, esp when we're talking about kids.

When I say "you are argumentative" to my daughter, I am saying she IS that. This takes away her choice to be other than that. I am defining her, not her behaviour and this includes what we consider positive ones.

When I say "you are doing argumentative" (as weird as that phrase sounds at first, you get used to it) she can do something else, because it isn't her, it isn't something she is "being", it is something she is doing.

"I see you are choosing anger, and I'm reacting to that." has come out of my mouth before, several times. This shows her that she has ultimate choice and power over herself. Even at 6 she has learned that she chooses how she feels and behaves, where other kids are still struggling with the idea that it is beyond their control, that thoughts and feelings just "take them away" and they have to "wait them out" or "have circumstances change" before they can feel another way. DD doesn't always harness this power, but she has done, and that's the beginning of the pinnacle of self determination as she will determine how she feels, if she wants to.

We're learning together. She reminds me, and DH (and even the baby ), "why are you choosing frustration?" and sometimes I have to be honest and say, "cos it feels good, and I'm not finished with it yet, OKAY!?"

It's no good to raise a child with the thought of freedom and self determination if I am going to decide what she is, if she is good, nice, selfless, helpful, happy... they are decisions I have made based on her behaviour which is changeable.

I think it is step one to remove negative labels, but ultimately, all labels should be removed for ultimate freedom of choice in a child. I wonder how much damage the phrase "you are..." during development of self has done to our people.

Many little girls through time have had that sticky sticky label of "nice" and it has brought nothing but grief. Whatever a "nice girl" doesn't do, they feel an incongruence when they want to do those things - making self determination difficult, as they are making decisions based on definitions of self.
post #864 of 1044
I like that calm. I usually don't use terms one way or another. When trying to stop a child from getting stuck in a role I don't usually use another term.

example: child is being "greedy" I wait until I catch them "sharing" (even if they are "greedy" more often then they are "generous") and I will say "You shared your cookie. Thats what I call generosity" (etc) and let my child determine if they think they are a generous person or not all I am doing is pointing out behavior that *i* think is generous. I don't run around going "thats what I call greedy" though. I focus on the positive.

I liek a lot of what you said though - I liek the "you are choosing ____ and I am reacting that" kind of thinking.
post #865 of 1044
subbing

This thread is making my brain hurt a little with all the new thoughts and how challenging it might be to change, but I imagine it will get easier with time. Thanks!!

I voted combo
post #866 of 1044
Thread Starter 
SGM, I keep meaning to say this, but you're sig really affected me when you changed it recently. I really like it. I've quoted it several times over the last couple of weeks.

Quote:
So it boils down to 1-2 things:
1) Understanding the definition of self determination
2) Faith that a child is capable fo being rational
Interesting, if it boils down to this. I do have faith that a child is capable of being rational. I don't think adults or children can be rational all the time. I also do not think children should be rational at tender ages much at all, which was my point early in the thread and I even mention it in the OP.

I read the CL mama's challenges in the yahoogroup. And they often say things like “a young child has no concept of “fair””. Some of them are following CL very closely and still come across “regular” child behaviour, and often irrational stuff. Unreasonable situations. Because they're dealing with children. Children do weird stuff , they don't follow a linear time line nor do they care much for logic. I do see rational behaviour from kids but I also see the opposite. I don't know where that leaves me on the 2 step breakdown.

My children choose reason and they choose irrational. They choose autonomy and they choose to curl in my lap and beg me to take away their decisions. I see the way you worded that was: capable of being (doing) rational. Being capable of it and actually doing rational in every scenario are not the same thing.

I think self determination can and should be fostered in all people, regardless of irrationality labels such as certain mental illnesses, ADHD and autism. And I think it is a slippery slope rabbit hole when we start saying, “if it is rational to the person, then it is rational, they have their reasons for kicking and freaking out, maybe they're frustrated at having their rights infringed.” because if we are going to endow full use of certain rights to children then we also need to accept that the full responsibility goes with them and there is nothing reasonable in potentially hurting yourself in frustration. Understandable, totally, but reasonable? That's rabbit hole territory. The definition of reasonable and rational both contain elements of intellect, logic and non-extreme. None of which are there in knee jerk emotional outbursts. Reason and emotion coexist best once there has been some life experience.
post #867 of 1044
I agree that neither adults or children are rational at all times. Both have things that will cause them to be irrational. At that time, there is an underlying unmet need that needs to be met before moving forward. So, in my mind, "rationability" does not cause a child to be less capable of safely self determining then an adult. I agree anyone can have their needs met so they can be rational. My son is autistic and capable of being rational.

I agree with what you are saying. Thats why I think some don't find CL practical at times. They aren't ready to wait for he rationality to kick back in. As in the apple example, with my child I could empathize how they really wish there were TWO apples. Once those "extreme" emotions of disappointment pass, then we can find a CL solution. A child who is still upset there is only 1 apple and 2 people want to eat it is not going to agree to splitting the apple. Now for me, an apple isnt so important to me - I would be fine just saying okay have it. I can't see myself wanting an apple THAT bad. Nor do I think it will be my only chance to let my child experience disappointment. Disappointment opportunities will still come. Lets say both children reach for and grab the apple at the same time though - thats the kind of case where I would say "bring them down" so to speak (from those "high emotions" as I call them) and then its easy to be consensual. This is how CL looks in my family.

Reason and emotion can both coexist will good function at any age - I think we evolve over the years to handle more and more. Basically, my newborn doesn't need emotion or reason over eating They just go with the flow. A toddler is another story. They do have some life experience at that point - enough to handle that situation. A teenager may take it even further, and they have even more life experience at that point. For each situation where they choose to "assert" themselves (I am not choosing the best words here I know) they have enough life experience to do so. They feel they are capable of choosing based on their life experience they have. They don't even think to choose other things - I do believe in development of children so I do believe that a child doesn't think "oh maybe mommy is lying" but a teen (if you have a history of tall tales) may think that. So if I said to my toddler "sometimes the sky is green" they may just trust that. If I said to a 7 year old the sky is sometimes green they may questions me "really? I've never seen it green before. I think the sky is always blue. once the sky was purple. but not green." so I feel development plays a roll in that sense, but not in the sense of ability to self determine (by my understanding of the term) I realize some here are interpreting that word differently then I understand it, and by their interpretation I can understand why they feel confused on the issue.

I am appreciating your posts most recently Calm
post #868 of 1044
Another lovely post Calm (i am REALLY enjoying this thread!).

It's funny i think my DD has a very strong sense of "fairness", it's just that because she is still far more aware of her own experiences than of those around her (presumably because a selfless baby/toddler would starve to death while it worried whether it's mother was getting enough sleep) she is more aware of fairness towards her than towards anyone else. She knows if i eat the whole apple it's not fair, she's just not so quick to identify that if she eats it all it's not fair, because she's at an age when worrying about fairness to others would still be a pretty dangerous tactic in terms of survival. As far as i can tell, as a person ages they seem to be able to tae into account fairness towards more and more other people - i.e. it's ok to share with a friend, but a group of 3 will often turn into a contention of 2 against 1, then 3 is ok. Some people go on to become brilliant at fairness and arbitrating it, but most do not. Most people have a spectral "them" to whom their sense of justice shouldn't or doesn't apply.

I find a lot of what she wants to do unreasonable, which is why i'm not excited to embrace CL. I don't think she's capable of (or should have to aspire to) behaving unselfishly or thinking of others or even necessarily thinking in terms of consequences to herself. I often talk before making decisions to see if compromise can be reached and sometimes it cannot. She wants to empty the vacuum cannister onto the hall carpet. No, she doesn't care about the dust. No she will not clean up after. No, she won't do it outside. No she wouldn't rather do x instead. She wants to do it right here, right now, no compromise. So i tell her, sorry, no, that is not happening. I don't think she should have to make those decisions for herself. It is her who will end up with the dirt in her teeth and hair and lungs, her who will end up in a huge mess. Her who will no doubt cry because she is 3 and doesn't have anything LIKE the foresight needed to make decisions like this on her own.

I make decisions for her every day. She would not choose the organic local apple, she would choose the big commercially grown pink apple which looks spectacular but tastes of nothing and is nutritionally void by comparison. I don't let her make that mistake. She would not wear tough shoes to play in the garden, given the choice (when i didn't realise she was making any such choice!) she wore no shoes, dropped a brick on her foot and mashed her toenail. 20 minutes later, tears still wet on her cheeks and her toe swollen and hot, she tried to go out barefoot again. I don't think she has a "right" to the pain of her mistakes at such a tender age. I never make decisions with the intention of hurting, restricting, thwarting or demeaning her. I never seek to restrict her freedom to (only her freedom from - injury, hunger, pain, distress etc. etc.). I make decisions because i love her, to me she seems incapable of making those decisions herself and even if she WOULD make such decisions, is too young and inexperienced to be expected to live with her mistakes. There are definitely decisions she IS able to cope with, and a few she is almost able to cope with. I let her handle the former routinely herself, and the latter under supervision, while she sharpens her skills.
post #869 of 1044
Quote:
A child who is still upset there is only 1 apple and 2 people want to eat it is not going to agree to splitting the apple. Now for me, an apple isnt so important to me - I would be fine just saying okay have it. I can't see myself wanting an apple THAT bad. Nor do I think it will be my only chance to let my child experience disappointment. Disappointment opportunities will still come. Lets say both children reach for and grab the apple at the same time though - thats the kind of case where I would say "bring them down" so to speak (from those "high emotions" as I call them) and then its easy to be consensual. This is how CL looks in my family.
Do you mean that if you and a child couldn't share you would let the child have the apple but if the 2 kids couldn't share you would wait until they calmed own and get them to share? ("get them to share" is so clumsy, i mean rather, provide them with the opportunity to decide to share - it's late here, nearly midnight!). What if they still couldn't come to an agreement, and both still wanted the apple. Do you then decide? Or how is it resolved?
post #870 of 1044
It depends... are we talking about an actual apple or is the apple supposed to represent something "more" I am just talking about an apple here and really, child or not, if someone REALLY wanted the apple I personally do not care THAT much about an apple, I'd just say "sure here ya go!"

I find giving information helps. Such as when my 2 year old wants one of my tampons. she doesn't end up "getting" the tampon, but she is able to get to that point on her own without my "putting my foot down" that she can't have it. And if she wants to pretend the tampon is a crayon, I might just feel comfortable with that, but we haven't gotten that far on the issue. I got my unused tampon back, and now keep them where they cant see them.

Another example is I do not eat in front of others what I cannot share. If I'm having an apple I tend to say "Hey lets split an apple!" off the bat. I don't have the starting point "this is my apple" and then decide "okay, you can have my apple" When I have a meal or snack in front of another child or adults its always something I can share or give them their own. If I really have a craving for an apple I dont want to share then I will probably eat it when the kids are napping, in bed, or eating something I know they think is WAY better then an apple. I can totally eat steak around my son because he doesn't like steak - but im willing to share or give him mine or make him his own or get something else he wants if I am eating it in front of him. My son can't eat certain foods (allergies) so I'm not going to eat a slice of pizza in front of him, unless he is happily already eating one of his own gfcf pizzas and if he wants a bite of mine then I let him have a bite, and then in the future I won't eat pizza in front of him either way. I am just being polite with my children, it may sound bizarre to some but to me it's very easy to do this if I just treat my children the same way I would treat a house guest.

As for other children, as I said first I bring them "down" then we problem solve. Problem solving isn't always meeting exactly in the middle "split the apple in half" Here is a long list of options:

Cut the apple in slices
one child has applesauce instead
we walk to the store and get another apple if they want
both children have someting else (this is almost always the case - if I say "how about one of you have a banana, they both end up wanting a banana lol - so I offer something appealing they can both have. if they dont both want it, usually it will appeal to at least one of them and they move from wanting an apple to wanting a banana)
Take turns biting the apple
play catch with the apple instead
Both kids get a paintbrush to paint the apple
Let's go paint instead
Let's go in the pool.
Let's feed the apple to someone else
Let's bury the apple in the backyard
I will slice the apple, we can take turns adding apple into the blender, and make apple sauce to share (my kids love "doing thing" so they choose "activity" over "apple")
Let's make apple soup (haha mom. thats funny.)
If we cut the apple in half a certain way, it will make a star, want to see? You can both get a WHOLE star.
Rolly Polly Apple
Apple paint "stamp" (cut apple in half, put in paint, stamp paper with different colors)
Who wants to see horses? Okay, what can we bring to feed the horse. Horses like apples... but we only have one... should we bring this apple to the horse instead of eating it ourselves?
Apple Soccer
Apple Basketball (possible being thrown into a bucket of water instead of a hoop, because my kids love water)
Hot/Cold apple (hide the apple, take turns with who hides and who finds)
Hot potato apple
Run in circles around the apple ( can you tell I have toddlers lol)

Solutions and ideas will be based on age. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but I dont feel the need to list more. I don't decide for them. I trust their are infinite possibilities, so I know it won't come down to that. Lots of paint examples, because thats what my kids love. I would also look to prevent in the future: always slice apples and put on 'x' number of plates. I can eat off all plates if child(ren) doesnt want apples. When there is only 1 apple left, turn it into applesauce ahead of time, ask "who wants apple sauce" and then split the apple sauce between everyone - do this in the kitchen while kids are in another room so to them they are getting a "whole" bowl of applesauce

CL goes beyond, IMO, the idea of "how can we both get the apple" to a point where its like "how can we all be happy" It's not about "who gets their way" or "what is fair" or "who decides". It's not always about how can we all agree; but sometimes about what we can all agree on. (okay, that kind of can be considered the same thing... but in other words its not about how we can all be happy with half an apple, its just about how we can all be happy including OR regardless of the apple.
post #871 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
Thats why I think some don't find CL practical at times. They aren't ready to wait for he rationality to kick back in.

Yep! That is about the size of it! I am willing to own that

2 examples from today:

Ds (2) has meltdown in the doorway of a bouncehouse, too scared to go in, but unwilling to come out. Kids are waiting and plowing by him. Motor is running VERY loudly, making conversation nearly impossible. I am not willing to wait for him to become rational in this situation--I pick him up and move him.

Later, ds refuses to get out of the car when we get home. He wants to stay in his seat. It is peaceful and quiet, and he is sitting happily and sweetly. I send dh and dd in, and spend some quiet time with ds (traumatized by the bounce house experience, lol). After a minute or two, I ask him if he wants to do something I know he likes to do...in the house. He says OK! and gets out on his own.
post #872 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm View Post
When I say "you are doing argumentative" (as weird as that phrase sounds at first, you get used to it) she can do something else, because it isn't her, it isn't something she is "being", it is something she is doing.

"I see you are choosing anger, and I'm reacting to that."

We're learning together. She reminds me, and DH (and even the baby ), "why are you choosing frustration?" and sometimes I have to be honest and say, "cos it feels good, and I'm not finished with it yet, OKAY!?"
This is the most fantastic thing I have read in a while...thank you for this insight.
post #873 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
I understand that. I dont think you understand what I am saying. Your relationship with Erica is obviously different then mine with my mom because you are two different people. I don't know Erica better then you do. But there is one person who knows Erica better then you do. Erica. And maybe at this time in her life she feels those terms describe her appropriately. Or maybe not. And maybe one day she wont appreciate those terms. Or maybe not. You sound like the kind of person who would be accepting if one day Erica let you know those terms are hurtful, which is good. At this time its possible (I know because I've been there, so while it may not be true for Erica it is still *possible*) that Erica is keeping connection and protecting herself by going along with you about those words( "defiant" "strong willed" etc.) Me personally, which is the only person *I* feel comfortably speaking for, I know that at one point in adulthood I thought the things my mom said about me was true because I trusted she loved me and I didn't see them negatively. That doesnt mean that those words prevented me from being my personal best. Once I realized this and was able to accept it I grew a lot more as a person. Would it have helped if my mom had freed me of those terms? Yes. You sound like you would be supportive of Erica freeing herself from those terms if one day she decides to do so. Some people never grow to that point though, because keeping the connection with their parent is too important, because admiting to *themselves* that their parents were wrong in some ways is too hard. Sounds like Erica has accepted that in some areas, but it doesnt mean she would be ready to accept them in all areas or ready to confront you in all areas because she confronted you in others. You speak for yourself and Erica. I am only speaking for myself. Sometimes I am very open and honest with my family on how I feel about certain things. In other areas I continue to just agree even if I dont, and perhaps there are even more areas where I am agreeing and believe I agree, but then as I grow more as a person I realize that believing what they say (agreeing) is a hindrance. Perhaps you feel calling a child defiant a good thing. Perhaps you see it as acceptable because your child as an adult verbally agrees with you and so does the person she chose as SO. Perhaps I have read too much on psychology and perhaps I play it too safe with my own children. Personally I would be concerned if my children used terms like that to define themselves. Perhaps my children will grow up to sing my praises to me but not really like what I have done for them. Perhaps the same is true for Erica. I just personally dont feel comfortable with taking your word for it when it comes to another person. I believe you know Erica better then me, but I don't believe you know Erica better then Erica. Sorry I do believe you know YOURSELF better then anyone else though, so I believe that all you have done is with best intents and all that you believe about your daughter is true to you.
I don't know how to put it any clearer--this isn't my description of Erica. This is how she views herself. And in her own words (spoken this morning as she dropped off her dd on her way to work): "He11 no. I take it as a compliment. Being strong willed and stubborn has been an asset as an adult. Those are traits that have me a strong, independent woman. I'm proud of them." What you don't understand or comprehend is that Erica wouldn't hesitate to tell me differently if she felt differently. Her feelings and emotions have always been heard and validated. Other than Erica becoming a member and telling you herself, I don't know what else I can say.
post #874 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
I understand that. I would cry if my child told me they though defiance was part of their personality. Im not speaking of you and Erica. I am speaking of me. You know yourself better then anyone else. You know Erica better then I do. But you do not know Erica better then Erica. You know Erica is outspoken and you know everything Erica has ever told you. My mom would tell you the same about me. I am not comparing us, as Ive said it sound like your relationship is very different. I am only saying that My mom is my mom, you are you, I am me, and Erica is Erica. As long as Erica continues to agree with you on this subject, or at least say she does, then you can feel justified. I personally just could not feel comfortable with that. If it were me, which its not, I would get my child out of that "role". children tend to accept roles and bring them with them to adulthood. So what you say does not surprise me and what Erica has told you may be very true to her. I wouldn't brag about it though, Id get my child out of that role. but thats just *me*. you feel comfortable with it and so you feel comfortable thinking and describing her as the defiant contrary strong willed child.
No, it not that I'm comfortable thinking and describing her as the defiant contrary strong willed child. That would be like being comfortable with saying that the sky is blue. It is what it is regardless of any level of comfort.
post #875 of 1044
and you are comfortable with it because you agree with those terms. To you its like someone saying the sky is blue. For me, I would cry if my children viewed themselves that way, because that is not what I am trying to nurture in my chilren. To each their own. To you, thats just the way it is. To me, calling my child defiant would not equate to calling the sky blue. To me, it would be like saying "The sky is a storm" instead of looking at it as the sky sometimes providing rain that we could not survive without.
post #876 of 1044
thanks for the time calm. I like the way CL works in my family. I don't think its the only family dynamic that is workable. I really liked your posts at the end
post #877 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by sewchris2642 View Post
Other than Erica becoming a member and telling you herself, I don't know what else I can say.
But I would have told you those same things myself 5 years ago! (heck, even 2 years ago) It didn't mean it was healthy for me to see myself that way!! You think it is healthy for Erica to use those words to describe herself. THAT IS FINE!! I RESPECT THAT!! All I am saying is that *I* would not think it was healthy if *MY* kids described themselves that way. It would break my heart. I won't tell them that, because I don't want to them to not feel like they could tell me that, but I will do what I can not to lock them into roles such as "the easy one" or "the defiant one" or "the princess" or "the smart one" etc. I will try to nourish ALL their traits in a POSITIVE way. You think defiant is a positive trait.

Defiance: Intentionally contemptuous behavior or attitude; readiness to contend or resist.

Defiant sounds to me like someone who looks to go against the grain for the sake of it, which is how you describe Erica, but it *may* be because she is playing out the role expected of her. I'm not saying it *is* but I'm saying with anyone who acts in defiance who is described by themselves and family and friends as defiant *may* be playing out a role and so I don't want to put my own children in a situation where that could be the case. Some definitions of defiant also use words like "hostile" its just not how I would choose to describe any child of mine. I would look at how they are very comfortable with standing up for what they believe in no matter who they are standing up against. I just wouldn't choose the word defiant. I wouldn't feel comfortable locking my child into a role. And I was just like Erica from what you have described so far (even if you weren't just like my mom) but the fact was that at one time I would have used those same negative terms to describe myself, but now I see how limiting that was in my life and how it wasn't enabling me to be my best. With my children I look at what gifts they are learning how to use. So really I'm not different then you in that sense. You worked backwards. You went from defiant - how can we make defiant work. I look at it a gift that is being expressed as defiance because the skill hasn't been learned yet. I don't think of my children in what I think are negative terms. You dont think defiant is negative, so we are the same in that we both wouldnt think of our children in negative terms. I would probably say that assertiveness is their strong point, and look for ways to encourage a healthy assertiveness, instead of oh they are just being them, my defiant child. Because yes, they are them, but they are not "the defiant one" they are not "the one no one understand" they are not "the contrary one".

Have you ever done "the work" by Byron Katie?
post #878 of 1044
Defiance: Intentionally contemptuous behavior or attitude; readiness to contend or resist. (Super Glue Mommy, post # 877)

No, Erica was not "the defiant one". She was and is Erica. Defiant described her personality and behavior. Once I realized that, I could help her learn to control it. A problem needs to be defined before it can be dealt with. Once I defined the problem/situation, I could change how I reacted to it and help her to deal with it. The solution was to have clear, defined rules of behavior and never, ever get into a debate/arguement with her. Just continue to state the rules. The rules gave her a safe wall to push against.

But I will end this now as it is clear that we are at an impasse with this.
post #879 of 1044
Can you be clearer about what you mean by The Work by Byron Katie? I read her website but don't understand the context.
post #880 of 1044
I think you did/are doing what you believe is best for Erica. And I am doing what I believe is best for my children. I am glad to hear that never getting into "debate" with Erica was useful for you and her and that everyone else in her life also avoided debate with her. Maybe thats where her and I we different. If my mom put up what she thought was a safe wall for me to push against, I was looking for a way to knock the wall down with a crane lol. Demolition time! She thought my behavior defiant, and so I acted out accordingly.

I didn't understand the work at first either. I think I wasnt ready to accept it when I first started looking into it. It's been very helpful to me though.
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