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Do you prefer a family Hierarchy or Consensuality? Updated! - Page 45

Poll Results: Family Dynamics: Hierarchy or Consensuality?

 
  • 2% (17)
    Definite hierarchy with rules, strict structure; decisions made on behalf of children.
  • 29% (176)
    Hierarchy with guidelines, routine, soft structure; most decisions made for children.
  • 9% (56)
    Consensual family; decisions round table, children are self determining; few or no rules.
  • 10% (61)
    Mostly Consensual; guidelines, choice where possible, highly structured
  • 45% (277)
    Combo; children know their place in hierarchy but have as much freedom as poss within that structure
  • 2% (18)
    I don't know what you are talking about.
605 Total Votes  
post #881 of 1044
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Can you be clearer about what you mean by The Work by Byron Katie? I read her website but don't understand the context.
Loving What Is is her book that explains The Work. It is about awakening, in a nutshell. I don't think it is that we don't accept it, it really can be a bit confusing at first.

Imagine waking up one day with absolutely no memory. Another way of putting it is, imagine if you were a newborn baby. It isn't easy to remove absolutely everything you know but it is a process of discovery you imagine. You look at a cockroach running by and you have no word for it, no concept, no frame of reference. You just see a small brown thing scuttering along the floor. It means nothing. You have no distaste, no fear, because you have no experience or memory of "cockroach".

You look around the room and see stuff. A hair brush catches your eye. You pick it up. You feel the shape, the different parts, you have no idea what it does, what it is. It means as much to you as the cockroach does. A purple one eyed monster with green spots may as well walk in and make you toast, it all means the same to you, for without memory, there is nothing to refer to. We build our experience from that point. We start to build memories and memory triggers based on what happens from this moment forward.

This is called, in certain circles, enlightenment. Of course, enlightenment is much more, it is having no "opinion" but still with memory intact. It is feeling joy where another feels pain, as one is above concepts and duality. Enlightenment is so much more, but it must contain this element. This element of innocence, for want of a better word. What The Work does is strip away all you believe. For our beliefs hold us back. You take a situation and you ask certain questions of it, stripping it down to its bare bones and oftentimes when I work this with people, they can have such a shock of an AHA! moment, it changes their life forever. Other times, it just helps. But it rarely does nothing.

I can help you with one to get you started if you like. Online is not very easy, as it is a process that ordinarily happens in the moment, not in the days I've taken with some on forums to go through each question, come back to the computer, answer, come back, etc. Chat windows are better than forums. But I can write an example of one that I've done. First, the questions you ask are:

Is this true?
Can you absolutely know that this is true?
How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
Who would you be without the thought?
- The Turnaround
- Embracing Reality

You fill in a form, judging the situation and saying how you think and feel about it. There are specific ones and there are several but I'll just do one of them.

I am angry at Steve because he doesn't listen to me, he should pay more attention. I never want to experience him doing this to me again.
He doesn't listen to you; it that true?
Yes.
Can you absolutely know that is true? Can you be in his head, can you bet your life and the life of your kids on that being true?
Well, no.
He doesn't listen to you, is that true?
No.
How do you react when you think the thought "He doesn't listen to me"?
I feel disappointed; so unloved. Like I'm nothing, like I'm all alone. I feel as though what I have to say is worthless, I feel angry and frustrated.
Who would you be without the thought, he doesn't listen to me?
I would be free. I would love Steve more. I would feel loved.
Steve should pay more attention to you. Is this true?
It feels true.
Can you absolutely know this is true, that the world would be a better place if he paid more attention to you? Can you know for sure what he SHOULD do?
No.
How do you react when you think that thought?
I get angry. I feel the same way I do about him not listening.
That is a lot of negative feeling when you believe something that isn't even true.
Yes (swallows back tears)
Our pain is based in believing something that argues with reality. Reality, what IS, is always kinder than our thoughts about it. Our story starts to play in our heads and we manipulate reality, we create, and all too often we create hell, when we can create heaven. What is real? What is true? What do we ever know for sure? Right now, what is real?
This chair is brown. I hear birds outside. I hear a plane flying over head. I see two people arguing over there.
That is the power of now. That is all that is real. The rest is an illusion. Made up. fabricated in your head. When you feel pain, ask yourself what is real, and how much of that pain we are creating with our thoughts. Victims of rape, war, torture, they have all done the work, and found a place where they realised what happened to them lasted a short few moments, but they hurt themselves with the thought of it over and over for years.
The turnaround:
Steve doesn't listen to me. Turn it around, find one that fits better than this.
I don't listen to Steve.
How does that feel? Could you be so busy in your own head, you are tuning him out?
Yes.
Another one?
I don't listen to me.
*smiles*
*wipes tear*
Steve should pay more attention to me. Turn it around.
Steve shouldn't pay more attention to me.
Let's embrace our reality; let's move past fear. You said you never want to experience Steve doing these things. What are you willing to do now?
I am willing to experience Steve not listening to me. I am willing to experience Steve not paying enough attention to me.
Can we embrace it?
I look forward to experiencing Steve not listening to me. I look forward to experiencing Steve not paying enough attention to me.
*********************************
That's a really simple one. And only doing the process yourself can you find the layers lift. Freeing yourself from the bonds of belief and limited thoughts is something many religions dedicate years of meditation to. Byron Katie has managed to make it accessible in a very simple way. You can take this as deep as you choose, peeling layers off your preconceived ideas, learning just how much you have created your reality, and how much pain has actually been all made up. We're still playing pretend, just like children, which some people say is the reason we are here, in life. But the game can become painful, and we can get trapped in our stories. Getting back to what is real, that's when you can change the story again, and make it more fun.
post #882 of 1044
For me I was really not able to accept it. Like things with my husband, I didnt want to figure out what I could do to make things better. It was easier to just call him a jerk... thats what I meant by that. I didn't want to ask if I was opposing him - I was adamant that HE was oppositional. I had a revelation when my kids got into something one day though - and I realized that the person I should have been mad at was myself (where I left something, the amount of time I wasn't closely interacting with them, all the while knowing they could get into this) etc
post #883 of 1044
I get that. What I don't understand is is why SGM would post that website to me when the website is saying the same thing (basicly that I can't change Erica but I can change the way I react/interact/etc with her) that I was posting to her. I understand that I am the only one I can change or control. I can change my attitude, I can change the way I react, I can change the way I think. When I did that, I could teach Erica the tools she needed to deal/cope/interact with the world successfully and to control herself.
post #884 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
I think you did/are doing what you believe is best for Erica. And I am doing what I believe is best for my children. I am glad to hear that never getting into "debate" with Erica was useful for you and her and that everyone else in her life also avoided debate with her. Maybe thats where her and I we different. If my mom put up what she thought was a safe wall for me to push against, I was looking for a way to knock the wall down with a crane lol. Demolition time! She thought my behavior defiant, and so I acted out accordingly.

I didn't understand the work at first either. I think I wasnt ready to accept it when I first started looking into it. It's been very helpful to me though.
It seems I do need to clear something up. When I post that I didn't get into a debate with Erica, I mean that I stated my position calmly and mater-of-factly and didn't move from that position in the face of her temper tantrum. She pushed against my position and I didn't budge. Example:

Erica wanted the dining room chair that her sister was sitting in so she pushed her out of the chair. That is not allowed. I state the rule, point out the other 5 chairs that she could sit in. She throws a fit because she doesn't want the other 5 chairs; she wants the one she can't have. I restate the rule. She still wants Joy's chair. She still continued to push Joy out of the chair. In consequence, she was sent to her room until she could control herself, however long that took. There was no set time. She determined how long that was. When she came out, she would insist again that she wanted Joy's chair. I stated the rule. She threw a fit and went back to her room. In the beginning this could go on all afternoon. She was/is a very persistent person. Eventually, she learned to control her temper when she didn't get her way. Once she learned that we could teach her how to negotiate to get what she wanted (she could ask Joy calmly with out losing her temper if she would switch chairs so Erica could have that chair which Joy usually would do. Joy didn't care which chair she sat on. But she wasn't going to be bullied out of it either) or learn to accept 2nd choice (another chair). If this happened late in the afternoon, Erica would usually fall asleep on her bed the first time she went there. The whole episode was because she needed a nap and instead of taking one, picked a fight with her sister so that she would get sent to her room. All because she didn't want to admit that she needed a nap. When she woke up, she would come out and sit in another chair on her own.
post #885 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm View Post
SGM, I keep meaning to say this, but you're sig really affected me when you changed it recently. I really like it. I've quoted it several times over the last couple of weeks.


Interesting, if it boils down to this. I do have faith that a child is capable of being rational. I don't think adults or children can be rational all the time. I also do not think children should be rational at tender ages much at all, which was my point early in the thread and I even mention it in the OP.

I read the CL mama's challenges in the yahoogroup. And they often say things like “a young child has no concept of “fair””. Some of them are following CL very closely and still come across “regular” child behaviour, and often irrational stuff. Unreasonable situations. Because they're dealing with children. Children do weird stuff , they don't follow a linear time line nor do they care much for logic. I do see rational behaviour from kids but I also see the opposite. I don't know where that leaves me on the 2 step breakdown.

My children choose reason and they choose irrational. They choose autonomy and they choose to curl in my lap and beg me to take away their decisions. I see the way you worded that was: capable of being (doing) rational. Being capable of it and actually doing rational in every scenario are not the same thing.
I've used this example before in discussions of rationality in children.

I think adults discussing CL seem to have definitions of "rational" that are, well, "rational" to an adult. But I also believe that children are capable of rationality only within their developmental frame, and that by claiming that "all people, including children are rational" something is being missed.

My child can make a decision that is perfectly rational *within his world construct.* But it is based on what *to him* is the perfectly rational belief that Thomas the Tank engine is a real being and Sodor is a real place. He can make a decision that is internally rational based on his understanding of gravity, or of conservation of volume. Within his mind, it makes sense. And it is perfectly developmentally appropriate.

Yet in the wider world, I, as a grownup, know that his "rational" desire (*internally* rational to his world) is *not* rational in the context of the greater world, and what he wants is impossible or even unsafe.

I also had the experience of seeing how different the schedules of different children can be at being able to make certain logical leaps. My son had great difficulties in holding two potential actions in his head at once, comparing, and seeing if they were or were not compatible. Like someone else above, he'd demand two things that literally *could not* be done. "I don't want to leave the park! I want to eat ice cream!" He was not developmentally able, under stress, to be rational and to reason out that if he wanted ice cream, we had to leave the park to get it. This was not due to previous coercion, it was due to him not yet being able to grasp an "if-then" situation.

So the argument of rationality always concerns me, when it does not seem to take normal psychological/intellectual/emotional developmental stages into consideration...
post #886 of 1044
You've been very clear Chris. No need to clear anything up.
post #887 of 1044
Oh, good. I was afraid that I gave the impression that by not arguing with Erica it meant that she always got her way. Which is not the case.
post #888 of 1044
Definitely did not sound that way at all
post #889 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm View Post
Is this true?
Can you absolutely know that this is true?
How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
Who would you be without the thought?
- The Turnaround
- Embracing Reality

You fill in a form, judging the situation and saying how you think and feel about it. There are specific ones and there are several but I'll just do one of them.

I am angry at Steve because he doesn't listen to me, he should pay more attention. I never want to experience him doing this to me again.
He doesn't listen to you; it that true?
Yes.
Can you absolutely know that is true? Can you be in his head, can you bet your life and the life of your kids on that being true?
Well, no.
He doesn't listen to you, is that true?
No.
How do you react when you think the thought "He doesn't listen to me"?
I feel disappointed; so unloved. Like I'm nothing, like I'm all alone. I feel as though what I have to say is worthless, I feel angry and frustrated.
Who would you be without the thought, he doesn't listen to me?
I would be free. I would love Steve more. I would feel loved.
Steve should pay more attention to you. Is this true?
It feels true.
Can you absolutely know this is true, that the world would be a better place if he paid more attention to you? Can you know for sure what he SHOULD do?
No.
How do you react when you think that thought?
I get angry. I feel the same way I do about him not listening.
That is a lot of negative feeling when you believe something that isn't even true.
Yes (swallows back tears)
Our pain is based in believing something that argues with reality. Reality, what IS, is always kinder than our thoughts about it. Our story starts to play in our heads and we manipulate reality, we create, and all too often we create hell, when we can create heaven. What is real? What is true? What do we ever know for sure? Right now, what is real?
This chair is brown. I hear birds outside. I hear a plane flying over head. I see two people arguing over there.
That is the power of now. That is all that is real. The rest is an illusion. Made up. fabricated in your head. When you feel pain, ask yourself what is real, and how much of that pain we are creating with our thoughts. Victims of rape, war, torture, they have all done the work, and found a place where they realised what happened to them lasted a short few moments, but they hurt themselves with the thought of it over and over for years.
The turnaround:
Steve doesn't listen to me. Turn it around, find one that fits better than this.
I don't listen to Steve.
How does that feel? Could you be so busy in your own head, you are tuning him out?
Yes.
Another one?
I don't listen to me.
*smiles*
*wipes tear*
Steve should pay more attention to me. Turn it around.
Steve shouldn't pay more attention to me.
Let's embrace our reality; let's move past fear. You said you never want to experience Steve doing these things. What are you willing to do now?
I am willing to experience Steve not listening to me. I am willing to experience Steve not paying enough attention to me.
Can we embrace it?
I look forward to experiencing Steve not listening to me. I look forward to experiencing Steve not paying enough attention to me.
*********************************
That's a really simple one. And only doing the process yourself can you find the layers lift. Freeing yourself from the bonds of belief and limited thoughts is something many religions dedicate years of meditation to. Byron Katie has managed to make it accessible in a very simple way. You can take this as deep as you choose, peeling layers off your preconceived ideas, learning just how much you have created your reality, and how much pain has actually been all made up. We're still playing pretend, just like children, which some people say is the reason we are here, in life. But the game can become painful, and we can get trapped in our stories. Getting back to what is real, that's when you can change the story again, and make it more fun.
I have issue with this. What if you begin with "Steve is violent and hits me" - the whole thing is entirely sinister. I do think we should take personal responsibility for what is happening in our lives, and be rational about what is actually happening and not just get embroiled in our own perceptions and responses, but the implication that one should be enlightened into feeling negative things positively seems dangerous to me. I have processed the bad things i cannot change into positives. I have to come to a place where i acknowledge enough good has come from my being abused as a child that i would not go back and change it if i had that power. However, i absolutely do NOT allow my abuser to abuse me still.

To me change is often a necessary part of the accepting of reality. Just as you can say "Steve does not listen to me" when it is not true, saying "I look forward to Steve not listening to me" won't make it true either.
post #890 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
I have issue with this. What if you begin with "Steve is violent and hits me" - the whole thing is entirely sinister. I do think we should take personal responsibility for what is happening in our lives, and be rational about what is actually happening and not just get embroiled in our own perceptions and responses, but the implication that one should be enlightened into feeling negative things positively seems dangerous to me. I have processed the bad things i cannot change into positives. I have to come to a place where i acknowledge enough good has come from my being abused as a child that i would not go back and change it if i had that power. However, i absolutely do NOT allow my abuser to abuse me still.

To me change is often a necessary part of the accepting of reality. Just as you can say "Steve does not listen to me" when it is not true, saying "I look forward to Steve not listening to me" won't make it true either.
I had the same thoughts when reading that.

Also, this "I look forward to Steve not listening to me" makes no sense to me at all. I can embrace and accept my dp not meeting every one of my needs (and work on meeting those needs on my own--I've been with my partner since I was 17, and navigated my own way through that sort of relationship "work" in my early 20s, well before having my first child)--but why do would I look forward to not being heard?
post #891 of 1044
it doesn mean you look forward to steve not listening to you, its asking IF that could be true. (for some it can be, for some its not and another turn around might be true) On a deeper level, some people may not realize that they look forwrd to steve not listening to them, but yet they do get some kind fo satisfaction in him not listening (gives them an opportunity to vent... an emotional outlet... something safe to vent about... could be bigger issues. This was why I had a hard time "accepting" this idea at first too.

for "steve if violent and hits me" you could ask if you allow steve to be violent and hit you. is it possible that you really COULD end the relationship. not that it is your fault that steve hits, but that you can find happiness in realizing that YES you CAN leave him.
post #892 of 1044
Thread Starter 
Quote:
So the argument of rationality always concerns me, when it does not seem to take normal psychological/intellectual/emotional developmental stages into consideration...
In my opinion, a lot of CL does not take into account the developmental stages of a child. I have asked and asked, to be sure I'm not just assuming so I certainly cannot be accused of that. But it is true, they actually believe this stuff. They not only believe it, it is written on the guidelines and I take much issue with that for the sake of the children but that just angers people and they ignore me, apparently. Isn't that great? I can't get anything done with this, they see kids in a certain way and that's that.
post #893 of 1044
As a CL parent, I do believe in the developmental process. I think nothing is set in stone, personalities take a toll, some children are slower in some areas of development and faster in other areas. A lot of things to take into consideration. I don't overwhelm my children with questions. I let them follow my lead for as long as they choose to, then when they choose to start their own path, I work with them. I agree that we see children in a different way though.
post #894 of 1044
Thread Starter 
It's taking me some time to respond at the moment as life is rather full. So I've put a lot of info in this post due to that. sorry for the length, I hope someone somewhere reads it.

Quote:
I have issue with this. What if you begin with "Steve is violent and hits me" - the whole thing is entirely sinister. I do think we should take personal responsibility for what is happening in our lives, and be rational about what is actually happening and not just get embroiled in our own perceptions and responses, but the implication that one should be enlightened into feeling negative things positively seems dangerous to me. I have processed the bad things i cannot change into positives. I have to come to a place where i acknowledge enough good has come from my being abused as a child that i would not go back and change it if i had that power. However, i absolutely do NOT allow my abuser to abuse me still.
This is a FAQ of The Work. I had the same question, amongst many others. I ask lots of questions before I embrace something. Maybe that's been noticed .

Sometimes, the answer is "Yes, that is true." But we really need to look at it and see that most of the time we believe something because it suits the situation, and we base our whole stories around it. And we suffer. Things such as “Steve hit me”, well, that's going to be yes, that is true. However, I wouldn't want to do the work on the fact that he hit me first, but instead on why I am still with him, or why I keep hurting myself with the thought.

It is a choice. Stay with him and stop hitting myself over and over (in my thoughts), or leave. If those things are too hard to do, I would do the Work on them. To do the Work on staying with a man that hits me, then I'd start with “Steve hits me”, as this will lead me to not abusing myself, and only being abused by Steve (lousy choice, I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just being real). His abuse may be ten minutes of my day but I may repeat that abuse mentally for 10 hours a day, or live in fear of it 24 hours a day.

If I wanted to leave but felt I couldn't, I'd do the work on “I can't leave Steve because....(insert reasons)” and deal with the reality of that. Perhaps I am telling myself a bunch of stories that keep me with him, and removing those stories reveals the bare naked truth that allows me to leave, or to realise that I have chosen to stay for my own reasons.

One thing is certain, trying to change him is not the answer. That is pointless, and it is also none of my business (trying to change him is not my place or business; yes it is my business that I've been hit, just don't confused the two).

Scale that back to “Steve doesn't listen” and it is the same thing. I can't go around thinking I can change other people. That's arrogance of the highest order. “I wish you would just...” or “If only Peggie would XYZ then my life would be ABC”. The only person I can change is me. Just because we aren't dealing with violence doesn't mean suddenly we can change Steve now. We are faced with the same choices – how we feel about it, why we feel we must get more from Steve when another might be content with what he gives, why we are staying with him... etc.

To analyse the situation effectively, we must remove the story, the parts that are not real so we can get to reality, for reality is always kinder than our thoughts about it. From that place, we make choices.

We don't suddenly go mentally blank and do nothing with our lives. This is a very common misconception about The Work and enlightenment too. We still make decisions, choices, live life, laugh and cry, remove things from our lives that hold us back, and discuss in our relationships things that can help us both grow. Acceptance has a very negative connotation for some people because they are so used to bashing against everything else trying to organise the planet to suit them just so, instead of working from within themselves.

It is true we can take personal responsibility for our lives. But totally untrue that we can take responsibility for the lives of others. For the example of Steve not listening, it is, to be blunt, none of your business what he does. You have to figure out who's business you are in: your business, someone else's business, or "Gods" business (however you define that).

It isn't viewing negative things positively. It is seeing them as they are. I ask if it is true, and it either is or isn't. I ask how I feel about it, and who I would be without the thoughts I create around the reality. This is to show how much suffering my thoughts are bringing me. Invariably, I am more at peace if I stop insisting reality is something other than what it is.

This is always a harsh example and you either click and get it, or it irritates or confuses even further... Tibetan Buddhists were ousted from Tibet when the Chinese came and took over. Many Buddhists were imprisoned and tortured. Buddhist philosophy had taught them how to live in the now, the truth of how life is an illusion. They have told their stories, and they did not suffer between torturings. Living “now”, most of the time they were happy and free of the pain of suffering, for suffering is mostly in our heads.

There were a very select few, maybe only one or two, that actually did not suffer DURING the tortures. Some kind of transcendence that is irrelevant to The Work no doubt. But the way some only suffered when they were actually being hurt – that is The Work at its functioning pinnacle. If they can do that, we can certainly rise above that which we endure mentally over and over in our heads. How much are you hurting yourself?

The turnaround usually freaks people out at first. I know what you're saying. Accepting that which is horrendous seems to make no sense. "I look forward to being raped again" or "I look forward to losing everything and all those I love to war again" are two pretty big ones that others have done. But unless you have BTDT, you can only judge from where you stand. Try it. A few times. It isn't about saying "that's ok", it is about removing fear.

In way, it is like forgiveness. Forgiveness is also confused by most as assuming it is saying what happened is ok. It is not condoning. It is letting go. It is releasing. Releasing is not condoning. To truly forgive is to go beyond fear and suffering over an event. If you simply cannot, will not, are terrified of it, that very thing is going to control you. Removing the fear of something doesn't mean it is going to happen to you, nor is it condoning it.

I feared snakes. I easily said, "I never want to be anywhere near a snake ever in my life no way no how no thanks seeya." I didn't do the work on snakes, I did EFT, but it resulted in the same thing: I knew I had lost my fear when I could say "I am willing to be near a snake. I look forward to being near a snake." I didn't go out and buy one, it's not like it was ever going to happen to me. It was the symbol that the fear was gone. It is mentally getting to a place where I am no longer controlled by fear. Being willing to go through anything would certainly make the slim chance I'd go through most of those fears actually more bearable if they happened. If I just say the words but still shake at the thought (of being raped, holding a snake, being in war, or all of them at once) then I'm not free of it.

I can give an example of one I have done myself about my husband, and how it effected me.
**********
J is always critical of me. (and a bunch of other things I had listed but I won't put them here, cos we'll just go through one) I never want to be on the receiving end of his criticism again.
J is always critical, is this true?
No.
How does it make you feel when you think that thought?
Not good enough. Stressed. Misunderstood.
Who would you be without that thought that J is always critical?
Free. Free to be who I am, to do things the way I wish to do them. Free to love him more deeply. I would love me more. I wouldn't fear when I don't do something the right way.
Turnaround: J is always critical of me.
I am always critical of me. I am always critical of J. Both are very very true. Not to mention, most of the time I was probably projecting that he was criticising me when he wasn't, because I was criticising me.
Removing fear: I never want to experience J's criticism again.
I am willing to experience J's criticism again. Only by ceasing my argument with what “should” be, ie, he should not criticise me, can I stop suffering. I look forward to it, so I can let it flow through me, and know I have let it go.
*****
I do not know if J still criticises me. I don't even know anymore if he ever did. It certainly must have felt like it because I did the Work on it. Maybe he stopped, maybe my behaviour after The Work was such that something somewhere was triggered and it stopped. Maybe he does still criticise and I accept him warts and all and it just doesn't affect me. I don't know. The important thing is, I do not suffer with this problem anymore. And it was my problem, not his. He didn't suffer with it, no problem for him.

I had tried talking to him about it, I had tried arguing with him about it. I tried changing, being tidier, more “responsible”, I tried rebelling completely... I tried everything, nothing worked. I still suffered this problem. Until I did The Work on it. And this has been true of most of the things I have done The Work on, when I really have let it get deep and dirty into my psyche.

Life is really very simple, Buddhism showed me that when I studied it for several years some time ago. The bird is singing; the tap is dripping; the house has clean and dirty clothes all over the place; this cup is cracked; the computer is humming; my feet feel cold.... that's real.

I should put the clothes away; I'm so sick of losing cups and plates to the baby's play; my computer is great; the bird is going to wake the baby; that stupid tap is still broken; I hate winter and the heater needs fixing... that's the part that's not real. That's arguing with reality, that's judgment, opinion, suffering, that's all my story.

Just get up and put the clothes away (choice, decision), fix the darn tap and heater, stop giving the cups to the kids to play with... whatever, or do nothing. Doesn't matter, it's my thoughts that lead to suffering, and my actions will not stop the suffering, only in so far that I will allow my actions to affect my thoughts.

It doesn't take away my power, it just releases me. I make lists, engage in likes and dislikes for as long as I'm enjoying it, whine for as long as I feel like... but I do all this knowing that I am in control. I do anger or sadness until I don't want to do it anymore. And oddly, I still choose to do them, regularly. Crying feels good. But now I am not bound by them as though hypnotised.

Sometimes, my story has nothing to do with reality, it is off with the pixies, daydreaming about how life should be, where I should be... suffering along merrily. Sometimes I'm peacefully thinking un-real things, that's ok too... all of it is my choice; as long as I realise that, I'm free to make a different choice.

Put simply, years of Buddhism and a lifetime of religious study didn't get me to where The Work got me almost overnight. The speed of the self realisation is incomparable.

Here is the FAQ page of The Work, although I found her book FAQs had more detail about things I had problems with.
post #895 of 1044
A lot of that makes total sense to me, and sounds like the process I have gone through in my own head to work through relationship issues I had early in our marriage (although I had different words for my process, it is very similar....and I can definitely relate to not being bothered by something dh does/doesn't do anymore, while he likely has not changed a bit!).

But you lost me right.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm View Post
"I look forward to being raped again"
.....here.
post #896 of 1044
Thank you Calm. Makes me wanna go do some more of the work. Your work about your partner being critical so resonates with me.

Thanks for taking so much time to write on here, it is appreciated.
post #897 of 1044
Thread Starter 
Sunnmama, it's amazing some people get there, isn't it. Try to remember it isn't inviting it into your life. I don't want to be abused any more than you do. It is about moving past fear. You don't have to look forward to it, but for me I think it is important to at least be "willing to experience...".

The things we fear are the things that hold us back. If we say, "I am willing to experience whatever happens in my life... except xyz" then it's the xyz that we are going to use as our measuring stick in life. So we get specific, and say "I am willing to experience xyz" once we are in a place where we can put xyz into the rest of "life" as potential, where nothing has more priority over any other. It isn't going to change what happens to us, it just frees us so that we come out from behind the shadows. When in the middle of a negative situation, we still have a brain, that hasn't left, so we use it and deal with the good and the bad.



Everyone has their triggers, and usually those things we have already experienced are our biggest triggers. Some, like me, can say I am willing to be abused again (some childhood incidents I won't go into), some simply can't move past it. They get stuck, and even angry at the suggestion that we CAN get to that place; or angry at me for suggesting it, like I don't understand or something. “my pain is so much more dear than anyone else's”. I don't know. I've just seen people move past some things that we'd ordinarily assume would cripple a person for life. If one person can do it, anyone can. It isn't easy, but it is worth it.

I've seen the same stumbling blocks with forgiveness. Saying “I forgive so and so for raping and torturing me” is just not something some are willing to do. They see it as condoning, just like they see “I am willing to experience rape and torture again” as inviting it, or as though they liked it. I can't explain how forgiveness is freeing, and how moving past fear by being willing to experience life as it really is (not inviting pain of course!), but I can guarantee that it is freeing. How could it not be? People become very possessive of their suffering, of their maltreatment and pain, and actually like to hold on to it and don't realise that's what they're doing – that is true for some people. They think it has the hold on them when they have the hold on it.

I don't think I am doing this justice. But I do understand what you're saying, I think. I still struggle with it sometimes. I've done some large issues in The Work and they were very confronting and I argued with the whole premise. Only at the time I had no one to argue with because it was before I was going online so it was all in my own head which made it very easy for me to throw my hands up and walk away. And I did. For a long time.

Sacredmama, thank you.
post #898 of 1044
I can wrap my head around "I am willing to" and "I forgive so and so for". What I don't understand is the jump from "I am willing to" to "I look forward to". I can see the value of truly being willing to experience a bad outcome (because I've struggled with anxiety, and this sort of thought process helps me live and do things like work, get pregnant, take road trips, etc.....all sorts of things that anxiety might stop me from doing if I didn't really examine and confront my mind talk).

But, even though I am willing to be in a car accident.....I do not look forward to a car accident. I just don't understand the value and relevance of that particular jump.

When it comes to less tragic outcomes, like small relationship issues, I can understand looking forward to dh, say, never cleaning up after himself (not an issue we have, but for example). I can view it as an opportunity to care for him, or be reminded of him, or laugh, or...or...or......but to look forward to a car accident that could harm my family? It seems to smack up against my humanity itself.
post #899 of 1044
Calm, thanks for your further explanation. I actually don't know why i'm having a problem since in many ways i'm the other side of the aim for The Work for lots of things in life. Maybe i'll type some of it out and see if i become enlightened as to my own reasons for resistance. It is definitely "look forward to" that i take issue/have most troubles with.

For example, i was sexually abused as a child. I forgive my abuser. He is my brother. He too was sexually abused by an adult and he began abusing me as a result. Pain trickles down, i have seen this in many other places, and i accept that it's an aspect of humanity that is normal. Bullied children grow up and bully their families, those kids bully smaller kids at school, those kids bully littler siblings at home - it's not 100% the case, but it's common enough for me to be able to see the whole cycle of abuse and my place in it is merely circumstantial, not personal. He did not abuse me specifically, he abused the closest person to him who was accessible - i'm his younger sibling, i'm confident if i'd been the older sibling it wouldn't have been me. I feel very like a struck-by-lightening person might - the "blame", if there needs to be any, lies so far back along a chain of now-mostly-dead abusers through generations of people it's not worth assigning. This pain is only "mine" if i choose to pick it up and run with it, and i don't. I'm not interested. It is their pain if they want it, but i don't want it, and it's nothing to do with me. I often have a hard time trying to explain to people that however awful it might SOUND, i only had one childhood and since i never experienced THEIR idea of a "good" or "perfect" childhood i have no self-pity about having missed out. I had a fine childhood, it was far later i found out the elements that at the time were uncomfortable or confusing or very very occasionally unpleasant were considered the height of revolting to most of the rest of society. And in fact, a bit of an epiphany for me was realising how much impact that had - far more than being abused, realising how the rest of society feels about child abuse and incest can really leave one feeling revolting and very "poor me" about the whole thing. So it is that i have completely accepted that it happened, how much relevance it happening to me has to my Self (none) and what i can do about it now (nothing, and nothing needs to be done). I don't fear i happening again because it cannot, because i'm not a child anymore, but if it did i suppose i would cope with it, since i have and do already.

But i cannot convince myself that i could ever embrace it happening again. I don't go through life anticipating that i will be victimised, but equally i DO keep my eyes wide open and watch out for signs that it could happen. Though it is perfectly possible, i know, to overcome the hangover of sexual abuse (i was also raped when i was 14 by a boyfriend) it is not no work, effortless. In the scenarios i hae been in where i was raped i would NOT be raped again, i would defend myself more effectively. That's not to say i blame myself or my behaviour for the rapes or abuse in m past, i don't at all, but having been through it once i can see how many things i could have done to prevent it - a victim is almost always complicit in their victimisation and i was no exception. At this point in time i would happily be raped to avoid my DD being raped or either of us being killed. Ideologically i would accept rape as a bargain against the death of me or someone i loved, but i do no REALLY think this is a bargain that is made. I can see that if the choice was watch DD be raped or be raped myself i WOULD look forward to being raped, but that is just not reality. Someone who threatens to kill me either plans to or not and accepting rape will not make any difference to that. Likewise a rapist's word is hardly his bond - he might easily rape me and THEN DD - i would rather not accept that risk.

So, what has all this typing done for me...? I'm not sure. I definitely understand the concept that overcoming fear is freeing, and having been raped by a boyfriend i did have to accept that *might* happen again with every boyfriend thereafter. Obviously it isn't likely, but it's possible. And i embrace that in the sense that i still had boyfriends, and have a very happy relationship right now with my Dear Dear DP. But i do not "look forward" to him raping me. I don't believe that doing so would make it more likely, it doesn't increase my fear factor considering it. I think the only context i can put it where it's kind of true (in a twisted way) is the same as when i feel threatened by the way someone is acting when i have DD with me. I look at whoever it is and i think "just try something, just try it and find out how dangerous it is to attack a lioness when her cub is with her" because i feel powerful and strong in response to fear nowadays. I suppose i could "look foward" to being raped in the context of flexing the defensive muscles i only found during recovery. But in the simple sense of eager anticipation? I don't look forward to suffering, however brief.
post #900 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
I have issue with this. What if you begin with "Steve is violent and hits me" - the whole thing is entirely sinister. I do think we should take personal responsibility for what is happening in our lives, and be rational about what is actually happening and not just get embroiled in our own perceptions and responses, but the implication that one should be enlightened into feeling negative things positively seems dangerous to me. I have processed the bad things i cannot change into positives. I have to come to a place where i acknowledge enough good has come from my being abused as a child that i would not go back and change it if i had that power. However, i absolutely do NOT allow my abuser to abuse me still.

To me change is often a necessary part of the accepting of reality. Just as you can say "Steve does not listen to me" when it is not true, saying "I look forward to Steve not listening to me" won't make it true either.
and what if steve really doesn't listen, and you both know it? even if you have to live and accept it, you can still not like it.
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