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Do you prefer a family Hierarchy or Consensuality? Updated! - Page 49

Poll Results: Family Dynamics: Hierarchy or Consensuality?

 
  • 2% (17)
    Definite hierarchy with rules, strict structure; decisions made on behalf of children.
  • 29% (176)
    Hierarchy with guidelines, routine, soft structure; most decisions made for children.
  • 9% (56)
    Consensual family; decisions round table, children are self determining; few or no rules.
  • 10% (61)
    Mostly Consensual; guidelines, choice where possible, highly structured
  • 45% (277)
    Combo; children know their place in hierarchy but have as much freedom as poss within that structure
  • 2% (18)
    I don't know what you are talking about.
605 Total Votes  
post #961 of 1044
I'm sorry, you clarified while i was writing my post and i didn't see untl after. All sorted now hopefully.
post #962 of 1044
you quoted:
"Consensual is real to me, I don't get over technical with things until they disappear. I have a full life, not an empty one where everything can be made invalid and non existent."
and said
"implies those of us who have a view of consensuality which makes it non-concurrent with parenting have something lacking in our lives, which is a bit harsh!"

the sentence right after the sentence you quoted said
"I just realized I probably need to specify that saying my life is full is not saying someone else's is not. I am only speaking for myself here. I understand the disclaimer is necessary."

I was asking if you cared to quote that sentence as well, before telling me what I am implying after I had in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE clarified that thought.
post #963 of 1044
I honestly don't understand why it's so heated in here. I'll give up and bow out as well.
post #964 of 1044
I had edited my post at 12:32 and you posted at 12:41 so I see how we could have missed eachother between my clarification and your posting. It is a bit frustrating though that EVERY time I say anything postive about my life people choose to take it as an insult against their own lives. I am well aware that I can go left, then right, then right to get to pearls from my house. I can also go right,, then left then left to get there. Just because I say I went this way and got here, does NOT mean I am saying you cant get there because you didnt go this way. I thinkwith everything I have said it obvious that it the way I think (such as, there may be a brick wall there, but we can still go around it to get where we are going. Or over it. Or knock through it with a bulldozer. You hear me say I think there are infinite possibilites to come to a "happy ending" but every time I share which path I chose to get to my happy ending I am accused of insinuating no one else will have a happy ending. I want to believe these arent attempts for people to victimize themselves... it's hard because of my own personal experience with my toxic mother who would victimize herself for the purpose of making her look "right" and the other person look "wrong"... Which is probably why its heated on my end. Waif once I leave it won't be heated anymore because you all agree with each other lol

GoBecc - you are fine. I have my own nuerological issues which I will leave out of it, but I know my thinking has and always will be very "odd" to everyone else. Your thinking is obviously in the majority in this case. In this case, I am the one who sees he world very differently - as is apparent by the fact I think there are only 2 other people in all this thread who even somewhat share my thinking on the validity of consensuality and the term consensual living and its ability to be practical in practice.
post #965 of 1044
SGM i'm really sorry, i have edited. As you can see the thread expanded to a new page and i didn't see your edit of the quoted post until AFTER i'd posted that i didn't get what you meant, because until i put THAT post up the page didn't refresh to show your edit (even MORE confusing!). Apologies for the original misunderstanding, as well as for being slow on the uptake of the clarification. Technology doesn't make these things easier at all!
post #966 of 1044
Quote:
It is a bit frustrating though that EVERY time I say anything postive about my life people choose to take it as an insult against their own lives
I can assure you that I (at least) really really don't. I don't even know where you get that from.

In fact, to me it seems a bit like the opposite---if someone says "well what about this" (meaning perhaps a wrinkle in the CL philosophy), you seem to (sometimes) take that as saying that your parenting style is wrong or bad. It doesn't. It probably means that the poster likes the topic and wants to examine it from all angles.
post #967 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
SGM i'm really sorry, i have edited. As you can see the thread expanded to a new page and i didn't see your edit of the quoted post until AFTER i'd posted that i didn't get what you meant, because until i put THAT post up the page didn't refresh to show your edit (even MORE confusing!). Apologies for the original misunderstanding, as well as for being slow on the uptake of the clarification. Technology doesn't make these things easier at all!
its okay though no apology was necessary. I see what happened there
post #968 of 1044
to my comment of a full life you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by waiflywaif View Post
What does this mean? That anyone who is respectfully debating these points has an "empty" life? I don't quite understand.
to my comment of positive about me people taking to mean negative about people not like me you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by waiflywaif View Post
I can assure you that I (at least) really really don't. I don't even know where you get that from.
to which I say, I got that from the first quote - and you aren't the first to do that in this thread. Not really sure the purpose people have in twisting things that way. As I said I am assuming its not for the same reasons my mother does.



*To your comment of 'just the opposite' when someone says something I /believe is wrong/impossible that is saying something I do/believe is wrong/impossible in their eyes. When I say something I do/believe is right that is not saying something someone else does is wrong. I am only taking it the way its said. That is not the same as people reversing what I say. This is just the way my mind words though - which is why I used to not realize people would take things that way and then when it kept happening in this thread I learned people would take it that way and thats why I added the clarification. Perhaps some people when they say something good about themselves intend to imply something bad about others, and perhaps thats why they felt that is what I was doing. At first, I didn't even think to clarify because I know I don't do that - but when I reflected on the history of this thread I realize people might choose to take it that way, and so I clarified.
post #969 of 1044
Well, the fact that you edited it probably means that you knew it could be taken that way. All I can do is react to what you actually write. It seemed like a bit of a huge jump from a respectful debate about what "consensual" means in the context of a parent-child relationship to talk about full and empty lives. That is what I was reacting to. One minute it was a debate and the next minute it was personal.

And to your edit: I don't see where it was said that something you do is wrong.
post #970 of 1044
yes I know it can be taken that way because no matter how many times I clarify people CHOOSE to take it that way. It was never personal against anyone else. I am speaking of my own *personal* accounts because thats all I can speak of with absolute knowingness
post #971 of 1044
Quote:
Your thinking is obviously in the majority in this case. In this case, I am the one who sees he world very differently - as is apparent by the fact I think there are only 2 other people in all this thread who even somewhat share my thinking on the validity of consensuality and the term consensual living and its ability to be practical in practice.
The strangest thing is that it's only in the last page or two that i've been clear on what everyone else actually thought! I know i am very purist about things, but i don't really let that interfere with my life (basically that makes me a hypocrite of sorts, though i am ok with that too!).

I wonder if part of the matter of the disagreement about whether CL is practicable or not is because some of us feel CL is a workable state which takes thought, time and some effort to achieve but is very achieveable, and others of us feel it is an unattainable state which one can only move towards but not ever reach. Because some of the CL solutions you have found do not feel CL to me. That is not to say they aren't CL, just that my idea of it and yours differ. It's a bit like a discussion on religion isn't it? With everyone having their own idea of what "christian" or "muslim" should look like.

You are right about the perspective/emptiness point too, for me at least. But because it is just how i think it doesn't make me feel anything to be able to reduce my life and the merits or lack thereof of what i do in it to a morally void singularity. It is so often said "i need to get some perspective" and i just happen to be the sort of person who can look at the world from the coldness of space or the agony of minutiae. In one sense i can certainly see that zooming (which as discussed has its limitations here but we've all adopted it to discuss around this so i'll go on with it) is FAR more towards consensual than a smack round the head and command to stand still. In terms of practical action in the moment i also think it is not only among the best but also the one i would be most likely to adopt. I just don't think it is consensual in the true (for me) sense.

So that is where i am at with this - we all agree that the implement in question is the best for digging, it's just some of us call it "a spade" and the others "a shovel", yes?

ETA - i thought of a better way to put it - for some CL is TRYING to find consensual solutions and for others CL is FINDING the solutions all the time - one being very achieveable and the other not. One is a journey, the other a destination.
post #972 of 1044
So funny you said that about religion because I was just thinking its very much like religion. Which not only do I respect that other people find truth in different religions, but that people also find different truths in the same religion!

For me it is about the journey certaintly, but I do enjoy the destination as well. I find both the journey and the destination acheivable.

You are one step ahead of me, this thread still isnt very clear to me lol, but my life is clear and what consensual living means to me is clear, so thats really enough for me!

I appreciate your respect on the issue. That is how I feel. CL looks/feels/is diferent to each of us. I respect some people see CL as 'impossible' but yet the reality is that to me its not impossible. That is their truth and that is mine. I am not saying they are wrong, but I am speaking of what *I* know is right - and only I can know what I know ya know? hehehe
post #973 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
I just mean that our limits are different then boundaries. Limits we can work around instead of boundaries we have to stay in. There is no need for my children to test the limits because the limits aren't preventing them from experience, they are just part of the experience. There is no need to "take a mile" when I give an inch because I don't give inches or miles. They are already there, endlessly.
I'm still stuck here....so, no personal boundaries for yourself, then?

Is this age dependent? I have personal boundaries for my 2 yo ds, but I help him to meet his need while maintaining my boundary (twirling my hair while nursing, for example...twirling ok; pulling, yanking, ratting not ok).

I expect my 8 yo to deal with simple personal boundary requests without help (giving me privacy to dress, for example). She responds with testing limits, and eventually accepting the limit and coping just fine. I'm curious how giving miles and maintaining personal boundaries mesh as children grow.
post #974 of 1044
Don't all children look for boundaries to test? DD relentlessly tests my boundaries and "rules" (like "don't pour your water into the back of the tv").
post #975 of 1044
I think if things are phrased "dont..." or "you cant.." thats whats tested. Because they are seeing if they *can*. they are merely trying to show you that yes mama I can do these things - how come you thought I couldnt. Phrasing things in the positive, or finding something that meets the underlying desire of them wanting to pour water into the back of the TV tends to go over easier (at least in my house). That being said, we dont have a lot of rules...yes pouring water into the tv, if that were an issue, would be something we'd avoid - but there are many rules which many families have that are arbitrary and I dont really understand, so I dont see how I child would.
post #976 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
Phrasing things in the positive, or finding something that meets the underlying desire.
Is there not a point in development where it becomes the child's responsibility to cope without the parent exploring for underlying desires? My dd can cope with my dressing alone boundary, but she would prefer to be with me.

Positive phrasing is important and powerful, but by no means 100% effective.
post #977 of 1044
preferences are different than underlying needs though. I think at some point children are capable of exploring their own underlying desires - but I still need help sometimes, because we just get so focussed on what we *want* to do that we arent able to see alternatives. My child gives me alternatives to what I want to do all the time, and these are mutually agreed upon (by my wanting to do it). So I dont think its necessarily an age thing.

No positive phrasing isnt the be all end all, I was just using it as one example.
post #978 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
because we just get so focussed on what we *want* to do that we arent able to see alternatives. .
Agreed. What *I* often find, though, is that my dc can see the alternatives on their own once they accept the limit. That is why "must" and "can't" are so useful to me--not as a first line of communication, but as clarification of the limit if they are pressing to do something unacceptable.

My 2 yo often replies with an "Oh...we can't!" as if a lightbulb went off, and he then is able to choose an alternative. My 8 yo often needs to know *exactly* where the line is, but can deal well once she knows the line. Not knowing the line makes her anxious, and leads to more neediness and undesirable behavior.
post #979 of 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post
I'm still stuck here....so, no personal boundaries for yourself, then?

Is this age dependent? I have personal boundaries for my 2 yo ds, but I help him to meet his need while maintaining my boundary (twirling my hair while nursing, for example...twirling ok; pulling, yanking, ratting not ok).

I expect my 8 yo to deal with simple personal boundary requests without help (giving me privacy to dress, for example). She responds with testing limits, and eventually accepting the limit and coping just fine. I'm curious how giving miles and maintaining personal boundaries mesh as children grow.


I don't need personal boundaries if I am trying to do something, because its already something *I* am choosing to do. Of course I have boundaries but not as they relate to my goals, only as they relate to what my goals are.

In those cases what is my childs goal of walking in when I'm in the bathroom. How can we meet that goal and still respect my goal. It has nothing to do with boundaries.
post #980 of 1044
poiyt you worded that well. I am in agreement.

My children don't need to test what their "limits" are. They know their goals can be meet. They don't need to "test" me or "prove" they CAN do something. I know they can, they know we can, so they don't need to test.
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