pbs documentary on 'people's temple', im traumatized

[contactmaya]

did anyone see that doco on the 'people's temple/jonestown' on pbs a couple of days ago? i always thought it was mass suicide but one third of the 'suicides' were children, including babies. im still traumatized and cant get that that sound of howling newborns out of my mind (the murders were recorded)

I couldnt sleep, and kept crying over and over. How could these parents have killed their own children? Kill yourself if you want, but you have no right to kill your child, not for religious reasons, not for any reason.

Did anyone else see this documentary?
Help me make sense of this, just tell me you saw this documentary, or you know something about it....
Maya
(starting to cry again at the thought of it)

[WonderWild]

Originally Posted by contactmaya

did anyone see that doco on the 'people's temple/jonestown' on pbs a couple of days ago? i always thought it was mass suicide but one third of the 'suicides' were children, including babies. im still traumatized and cant get that that sound of howling newborns out of my mind (the murders were recorded)

I couldnt sleep, and kept crying over and over. How could these parents have killed their own children? Kill yourself if you want, but you have no right to kill your child, not for religious reasons, not for any reason.

Did anyone else see this documentary?
Help me make sense of this, just tell me you saw this documentary, or you know something about it....
Maya
(starting to cry again at the thought of it)

I saw a bit of it on after my recording of the Antiques Road Show so I only saw a few minutes of it advertised. It's so sad. I didn't know that the murders were recorded and played though. How tragic.

[Amys1st]

I saw the beginning and the end but not the whole thing yet, its tivo'd but its also spring break and not a good time to watch with both girls home. Also, not wanting to watch before bed . But it was also brought up yesterday IRL at a playdate and the friend said basically what you did too.

One weird point DH brought up= some people said the day before it was peaceful friendly place but then the whole thing went down. I have a big issue w that since they had stock piled poison so he knew it was coming.

[contactmaya]

When i heard the crying babies, i had to turn it off, and i was livid, livid that these people killed their own children. Ok, so they wanted to kill themselves for their own spiritual reasons, but how does that justify murdering a child? A baby? But the thing is, i dont think it was suicide, even for the adults. Iheard there were armed guards as this was happening, and people wanted out, but it was too late. Some were found with gunshot wounds. They started killing the babies first. People couldnt escape. Only a couple got away. In other words, i dont think it was even suicide for the adults.

I keep trying to imagine myself in this situation, and how i would try to escape. The babies were actuallyt taken from the arms of the mothers, and injected with poison.

There is evidence pointing to a cia conspiracy, and that they wanted everyone dead.

Yes, i saw in the documentary that people were happy. But some wanted to leave, and couldnt.

I turned off the program, and didnt get the info on how the survivor they interviewed escaped. He saw his infant son and wife die there, but somehow managed not to be injected, or take the poison himself.

[whateverdidiwants]

Contactmaya - I saw the documentary on dvd, and one of the extras was more in-depth interviews with the survivors telling how they escaped. The man you're thinking of (the blonde one?) was picked by one of Jones' nurses and given a suitcase of money and told to leave and take the money to Russia, and that if he got caught, to kill himself.

The large black man snuck past people and ran into the jungle and hid.

The people who were with Senator Ryan's group hid behind the plane as best they could, and then hid in the jungle.

One of the thing that the survivors talked about quite a bit was a)they had had multiple fake suicide drills before, in order to test their allegiance to Jones, and a lot of people thought this one was also fake and b)the reason they killed the children first is that they figured (rightly) that the mothers wouldn't want to live any longer once their children were gone -it spiraled from there.

Absolutely heart-wrenching documentary, but something that should never be forgotten.

[contactmaya]

Why was it necessary for them all to die in the first place? I mean that disgusting man wanted to test their loyalty, ok, he was a crazy. But who organised the poison? Who took the babies out of their mothers arms? Who were those guards? If there was a spiritual reason for the suicide, why didnt they just let the people who didnt want to die, leave???
Im so disgusted. Im so angry that this could happen. Its bad enough in times of war, but these people were well meaning. They wanted uptopia. Good for them. But i dont buy the 'brainwashing' thing. You can never brainwash a woman to kill her own child.

Its sounds like the only person who got out of there when they started to distribute the poison was the black guy, and the guy that was sent with the money. The others got out the day before.
Anyway, thanks for listening to me, and for responding.

[Irishmommy]

I remember this when it actually happened.

[JTA Mom]

I read a book by a person who lived in that cult and escaped, barely in time. Her mother didn't. Her brother was my professor.

There's a lot of stuff that sick man did to those people, including sleep deprivation & starvation. He made sure they all toed the line by using forceful methods. Being starved for months, worked to death and not allowed to get much rest wears down a person. Also, there was significant force involved. The woman who wrote the book talked about how dangerous it was to escape. If it was that dangerous to leave, I'm sure there was force involved in drinking the poison. Also, I don't think the parents poisoned their own children. I have a feeling it was someone unrelated who gave them the poison. Then, like a pp mentioned, why live if your babies are dead.

Honestly, I doubt people were happy there, especially not from the book I read. Seductive Poison is the name of her book. Very insightful reading.


Cults are scary, and yes, they use subversive techniques to keep their followers in line. A lot of people who escape cults talk about how difficult it was and how they lost contact with their friends/family who stayed behind. It's a huge area of study for the social sciences, because EVERYONE can, with the right circumstances, become involved in a cult. It's super scary.

Ami

[cappuccinosmom]

I saw an older documentary, and read some books.

Learned a lot.

I'd been told that he was a fundy Christian nutcase who brainwashed people into killing themselves. Amazing how far from the truth that was. After watching the documentary and the books I read, I do believe that many of the deaths were murders. And of course there were the shootings at the airstrip too. Just horrendous.

ETA: I don't need a conspiracy theory to explain it. My family was part of a cult and it is *amazing* how educated, intelligent, loving, normal people can be manipulated and caused to do things that you'd never imagine. All a good manipulater has to do is find a little chink in their armor, some past hurt, some unfulfilled need, and if they're not wary, he can suck 'em right in.

[EVC]

Yes, I have been thinking about it since I watched. I feel haunted by the recording of him saying "Don't be like, Mother, Don't be like that. Lay down and die with your child, but don't be like that" (may not be the exact words, but it was something like that)--this was when he was lining them up for the poison, trying to convince a mother to allow her child to be poisoned. I could only imagine a scene where a mother is trying to desperately protect her baby, only to be forced to die together. I can't get over it. I really can't.

[EVC]

One weird point DH brought up= some people said the day before it was peaceful friendly place but then the whole thing went down. I have a big issue w that since they had stock piled poison so he knew it was coming.

They had stockpiled both poison AND weapons--when the poisoning happened, the exits where guarded with men holding guns, so you couldn't just refuse the poison and walk away.

And there had been a sort of "test" long before. I forget exactly, but when they where in California (?) he had them all drink Kool-aid and then told them it had poison it in (that time it didn't--but I guess it was sort of a trial run).

[EVC]

didnt get the info on how the survivor they interviewed escaped. He saw his infant son and wife die there, but somehow managed not to be injected, or take the poison himself.

Somehow he and two or three others were able to sneak out of the building and hide and in the jungle.

[EVC]

he others got out the day before.

There were others who had TRIED to get away the day before, but as they were about to board the plane with the Congressman they were all shot (including the Congressman himself--I forget his name). I think a cameraman and one of his aides were able to play dead and escape. The rest were killed.

[EVC]

ETA: I don't need a conspiracy theory to explain it. My family was part of a cult and it is *amazing* how educated, intelligent, loving, normal people can be manipulated and caused to do things that you'd never imagine. All a good manipulater has to do is find a little chink in their armor, some past hurt, some unfulfilled need, and if they're not wary, he can suck 'em right in.

Yeah, and what is also scary is that everything he had preached in the BEGINNING were all things that I would have SUPPORTED had I been around them: the primary message was social equality and racial integration. I would have TOTALLY supported it (and do support it). What if I had been adult, living in California at the time. Could I have gotten sucked in? And by the time the message had changed and the tactics had become abusive, would it have been to late? I can totally see how it could have happened. And it is terrifying.

[cappuccinosmom]

Yeah, and what is also scary is that everything he had preached in the BEGINNING were all things that I would have SUPPORTED had I been around them: the primary message was social equality and racial integration. I would have TOTALLY supported it (and do support it). What if I had been adult, living in California at the time. Could I have gotten sucked in? And by the time the message had changed and the tactics had become abusive, would it have been to late? I can totally see how it could have happened. And it is terrifying.

Yeah.

I think he really knew his audience, capitalized on what was going on in the country at the time, and sucked in a lot of otherwise reasonable people. He used the "old-time" religion front to draw religious people, and the "social gospel" front to draw the youth and those who were disenchanted with society at the time.

And I'll tell you what else is scary. Even a good, decent, loving human being can find themselves willing to hurt others in order to be in the "inner circle" and have power within the group. Or the fear of being kicked out or abandoned by the group. My parents struggled with this (and that is what ultimately began their journey out of the cult) and also experienced it from people who they never, never would have expected to behave that way.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by EVC

And there had been a sort of "test" long before. I forget exactly, but when they where in California (?) he had them all drink Kool-aid and then told them it had poison it in (that time it didn't--but I guess it was sort of a trial run).

The documentary i saw was on CNN, i think it was called "Inside Jonestown" or something similar.

The "test" was just of JJ's "inner circle" (including the one guy who survived after being given money to take to the Russian embassy, though he wanted to die afte watching his wife and infant son poisoned)...i dont think it was a test of the general population of his followers.


Katherine

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by EVC

There were others who had TRIED to get away the day before, but as they were about to board the plane with the Congressman they were all shot (including the Congressman himself--I forget his name). I think a cameraman and one of his aides were able to play dead and escape. The rest were killed.

From what i recall in the doc. i saw, his aide survived (i think she is now a CA congresswomen?),she was shot several times, and one man who was a longtime follower of Jones, along with his children and a couple of other people. This man, his wife, his children passed a note to get out, and were some of the very few people that were going to leave with the Congressman. They knew the whole time that they likely would not get out of there, but the Congressman and his people didnt seem to understand the gravity of the situation.

The children ran into the jungle and were too scared to come out, and were so seperated from the other adults for many many hours (maybe until the next day?), but eventually they found each other.

On the doc. i saw, there was a compelling story of a woman who walked many many miles with a few other people, with her three yr old strapped to her back, i dont know when they left, either the day before or the morning of....she said she knew they would die if they did not leave.

What was surprising to me (as others have said in this thread), was that most people believe it was mass suicide, but is it really "suicide" if someone is pointing a gun at you and says "Drink the painless poison or we will shoot your children and then shoot you"...is it really a choice? And i think people forget that they were in the middle of the jungle, plus they were told that the govt was on their way, coming to take their children and would do horrible things to the children. These people had been starved, beaten, broken down spiritually, physically, emotionally. But on the tapes you can hear people rebelling, i remember one woman arguing with Jones something like "Not the children! They're just babies, dont kill the babies!" How horrifying. And Jones, who claimed that the "koolaid" was painless, didnt drink it himself, but had a trusted follower shoot him in the head.

Another thing that i thought was so sad, was that even those who survived, didnt really get their lives back. They had so many lasting scars. One person was a fetus inside of his mother when she escaped, and later committed murder and is in prison for life.


Katherine

[LavenderMae]

I've seen it before. It was really hard to watch, just gut wrenching. If I remember correctly he/they poisoned the children first. I just can't imagine.

[princesstutu]

My great-grandmother died in this. My mother has never gotten over it. I wouldn't want to hear audio, I don't think.

[HarperRose]

Originally Posted by princesstutu

My great-grandmother died in this. My mother has never gotten over it. I wouldn't want to hear audio, I don't think.

whoa.