Christian/ bible reading members...I need some help.

[nummies]

I have been on a path to trying to figure things out. I am of a very science-oriented mind and am really struggling with my Christian roots. I was raised in a house where "God is real, that is all you need to know." Anytime I tried to ask specific questions it was shut down by saying "Don't question things like that."

My husband was forced into Catholic religion (his words) and does not believe at all anymore so he can't really answer these questions either.

So here it goes:

So God made the Earth right? Then what? Did he create dinosaurs too? Did he create those before man? I mean, the Earth is billions of years old. When did he create Adam and Eve? I have found info that says around 4000BC. But, we have human artifacts dating much earlier than that. How is that possible??

How did we get different races if Adam and Eve were of one race? I have heard some say that the races in different areas evolved over time (i.e. the sun made Africans dark-skinned). But doesn't that actually counter the argument of creation by God and add to the argument of evolution?

So we all came from Adam and Eve. So Adam and Eve's sons and daughters mated together? And they lived to be 800 years? I don't get how that is possible. Birth defects from similar chromosomes and all that.

Noah's Arc. I just can't get my head around that. They lived on this boat for a year and none of the animals had to eat? The lion didn't try to eat the lamb? Millions of species of animals were all on one boat?

So Mary's egg just started to grow into a human? There was no sperm needed? So technically it was like cloning? If someone claimed this today wouldn't we all be skeptical?

Ok, I have many more, but I will stop there. I am really trying to understand all of this. Hopefully to find my way back to God.

[fruitfulmomma]

Have you visited this site? www.answersingenesis.org

If you are interested in the Christian perspective on these issues, that would be the best place to start.

I'll try to give some basic answers, but if you are really wanting an in-depth study, I suggest the above. They have tons of resources available, including free videos online that would answer your questions.

So God made the Earth right? Then what? Did he create dinosaurs too? Did he create those before man? I mean, the Earth is billions of years old. When did he create Adam and Eve? I have found info that says around 4000BC. But, we have human artifacts dating much earlier than that. How is that possible??

Not all scientists believe the earth is billions of years old. Dating is not an exact nor infallible method of science. See http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-...ometric-dating

The bible teaches that dinosaurs were created on day six, the same day as humans. (Gen. 1:24-26) It also teaches that there was no death before sin (Rom. 5:12), so that neither the dinosaurs nor the humans had reason to be afraid of one another.

How did we get different races if Adam and Eve were of one race? I have heard some say that the races in different areas evolved over time (i.e. the sun made Africans dark-skinned). But doesn't that actually counter the argument of creation by God and add to the argument of evolution?

Gen 11 teaches that when men attempted to build a tower (The Tower of Babel) to heaven that God confused their languages, that is they all began to speak in new languages and divided into people groups with those whom they shared a common language and they scattered across the earth.

Creationists do not deny micro-evolution, or better called adaptation. Those who adapted to living in Africa by the darkening of their skin did not gain new information in their dna, but rather it was already there. For example my daughter currently has blond hair. Her father and my father (her grandfather) both had blond hair as children and now they both have brown. I expect her to have brown hair as an adult. Will she gain new DNA to cause it to turn brown? No, the information is already there.

So we all came from Adam and Eve. So Adam and Eve's sons and daughters mated together? And they lived to be 800 years? I don't get how that is possible. Birth defects from similar chromosomes and all that.

Yes, we believe that Adam and Eve's children engaged in what we term "incest". You assume the world has always been like it is today. But if Adam and Eve were created with perfect chromosomes then you would not expect to see the same problems we experience today in our offspring after 6000 years of death and decay.

We also believe that Noah's flood drastically changed the atmosphere of the earth, reducing man's ability to live as long as they did prior to it. Edited to Add: The Flood was not merely a flood but a total catastrophic event with volcanic eruptions, movement of the earth's surface, cosmic activity, etc... And we do believe in an ice age which was caused by this event. You can read in the book of Job about both great dinosaurs and snows that appear to resemble what we think of as an ice age.

Noah's Arc. I just can't get my head around that. They lived on this boat for a year and none of the animals had to eat? The lion didn't try to eat the lamb? Millions of species of animals were all on one boat?

The bible teaches that Noah did have food on the Ark for his family and all the animals. Also, the Ark was large enough to hold 500 train cars. We are not talking a little boat here.

There were not millions of species to take on board. He needed pairs of each kind (and 7 pairs of a few animals which were considered 'clean' for sacrifice and food.) So there was not a siamese cat and a burmese cat and so on. Only one pair of cats with the DNA available to adapt into these types later. (My children have the DNA available to have brown eyes, so even though they have blue eyes it is possible for their children to have brown.)

They also did not need full grown animals. "Teenage" animals which would just be entering sexual maturity but not fully grown would have worked fine.

You can read more about the logistics of the Ark here http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-...s#/topic/flood

So Mary's egg just started to grow into a human? There was no sperm needed? So technically it was like cloning? If someone claimed this today wouldn't we all be skeptical?

No, there was no sperm needed because God has the power to create ex nihilo, that is 'out of nothing'. Just as He spoke the world into being, He has the power to speak man into being if He so chooses.

Yes, it is human nature to be skeptical about all of this. I believe God changes hearts and it was only by His changing mine that I could truly understand all this but I find it sad that your questions were brushed aside.

[70toes]

:

Good, good stuff!

I also want to add that, although fruitfulmomma is right in that dating is not exact, I've also heard theologians say that even if it was, Why couldn't God have created the earth to already appear a couple billion years old? He didn't create Adam and Eve as infants, He created them as adults. Who's to day God wouldn't do the same with Earth?

I have been right where you are. Questioning your faith is a scary thing. And even though mine has been restored, I still love to search for answers because that's just how I am. It has been so helpful to me to remind myself that, though things don't always make sense to me, God reminds us in scripture that His ways are not our ways, and sometimes we have to say to ourselves, "I may not understand, but I CHOOSE to believe." That doesn't mean we have to go through life blindly excepting anything that next big, up and coming pastor says. I believe we should search for and absorb the knowledge that God has provided to us, while also accepting the unexplainable.

[cappuccinosmom]

Why couldn't God have created the earth to already appear a couple billion years old? He didn't create Adam and Eve as infants, He created them as adults. Who's to day God wouldn't do the same with Earth?

Oh my goodness, that is *such* a fascinating thought. Gotta ponder that one.

I think answers in genesis is a good place to start. You might also find Lee Stroble and his books to help you out with these questions. He started as an atheist, with the intent of proving Christianity false. So, he's been where you are.

One thing to remember about genetics and Noah's ark--that was at the very beginning of the universe, according to the Bible. Even with micro-evolution, the animal population wouldn't have had a whole lot to proliferate into the variety we have today. IOW, Noah wouldn't have had to take a bazillion different types of dog--just one set. And he didn't have to take mules at all, if he took donkeys and horses. And again, at the begining of all this, Adam and Eve's children and grandchildren were only once removed from their parents perfect creation, so intermarriage wouldn't have had the same kind of consequence as they do now.

There is also the school of thought that Christianity does not negate the idea of evolution. That God created the universe and left things to evolve, etc. That most of the Bible is mythical/allegorical.

But ultimately, there has to be some amount of faith involved. The Virgin Birth was a miracle--that's kind of the point. It was outside of the natural norm. It's not explainable by science. So, either you believe God did it, or you don't. There's no scientific explanation for it.

[lilmom]

You have gotten some good replies from pp's but I wanted to add that there is an excellent book called Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It examines Christianity from a more skeptical viewpoint. I would highly recommend it!

Another thing..if one never questions what they are taught, then they really don't know much about it...God encourages us to question and learn. The Bible talks about Jesus in the Garden before the crucifixion..questioning. Questioning is not only good, it's imperitive to deep faith, IMO. So keep studying and learning, and be open to it. Certainly there is faith, the belief in things unseen, that is needed to believe in God. But if you look around and are open to it, you also can see that there just had to be a designer of the world and everything in it.

Good luck on your quest.

[lolar2]

There are also many Christian groups who believe that the "days" in Genesis refer to "time periods," which makes the story (and timeline) more compatible with the mainstream scientific consensus. Just FYI, I don't know if it applies to your flavor of Christianity or not.

[TzippityDoulah]

My answers in BOLD

Originally Posted by nummies

I have been on a path to trying to figure things out. I am of a very science-oriented mind and am really struggling with my Christian roots. I was raised in a house where "God is real, that is all you need to know." Anytime I tried to ask specific questions it was shut down by saying "Don't question things like that."

that is unfortunate. you should always be able to question!

My husband was forced into Catholic religion (his words) and does not believe at all anymore so he can't really answer these questions either.

So here it goes:

So God made the Earth right? Then what? Did he create dinosaurs too? Did he create those before man? I mean, the Earth is billions of years old. When did he create Adam and Eve? I have found info that says around 4000BC. But, we have human artifacts dating much earlier than that. How is that possible??

"dating" artifact is very subjective... that has been proven. Also much speculation that the flood would have very quickly "dated" things. I don't use this point to "prove" anything... but it a logical fact - if the entire world flooded for a long time, many things would age much quicker than in their natural environment. so I can't say much else about that one... there is no one answer.

How did we get different races if Adam and Eve were of one race? I have heard some say that the races in different areas evolved over time (i.e. the sun made Africans dark-skinned). But doesn't that actually counter the argument of creation by God and add to the argument of evolution?

Christianity isn't against evolution. read up about the difference in macro and mirco evolution.. there is a gigantic difference between say a human race developing different skin pigments over 6000 yrs, and an animal turning from fish or money to human - and ENTIRELY different animal.

it's a common misunderstanding that Christianity is against all forms of evolution. everything evolves!

So we all came from Adam and Eve. So Adam and Eve's sons and daughters mated together? And they lived to be 800 years? I don't get how that is possible. Birth defects from similar chromosomes and all that.

first start of a clean race. God addresses the age changes around the time of the flood. after the flood people lived much shorter lives. why? b/c god decided it I guess. I can't give you an exact why on that one anymore than I can on why He created humans to begin with.

Noah's Arc. I just can't get my head around that. They lived on this boat for a year and none of the animals had to eat? The lion didn't try to eat the lamb? Millions of species of animals were all on one boat?

why do we think the animals didn't eat? and if God was mighty enough to create the animals from nothing, why not believe He is mighty enough to have them on a boat for a yr? I mean really... the first is much harder the fathom in my mind!

So Mary's egg just started to grow into a human? There was no sperm needed? .... If someone claimed this today wouldn't we all be skeptical?

of course! people ARE skeptical about it. if they weren't practually everyone would believe Jesus is the Messiah.

again, God created life form nothing - why not from only an egg with no sperm? the first is harder to believe... so you might want to start there first.

Ok, I have many more, but I will stop there. I am really trying to understand all of this. Hopefully to find my way back to God.

it's perfectly ok to question! but keep in mind... the desire to "prove" religion can only goso far. it's lke trying to "prove" history. if you're hoping to find a scientific answer for all things you wont. Science is a man made process of trying to find truth. God is above all man made things...

[Bluegoat]

Those are some great questions.

I'm going to start by saying that what most Christian groups have in common is that they all think the Bible is God's revelation of himself to us, and that everything in it that it tells us about God is true and infalliable.

However, not all of it is meant to be understood the same way. Some of it includes parables, for example, other parts are obviously poetic. As well, especially in the Old Testament, you can see that over the course of the book that the Israelites are coming to know more and more about God. The Bible needs to be understood as a whole document - it is not complete if you read only parts of it.

Now, as far as the questions you are asking go, the Genisis story does not mean that you have to believe the Earth is 4000 years old, or that you have to reject evolutionary theory, or anything like that. You will end up driving yourself crazy. An insistence on Biblical literalism is a very new idea, a reaction to the excesses of the Enlightenment. It was certainly not how the early church or even the Jews of Jesus' time understood it.

For the record, both the Raman Catholic and Orthodox churches are ok with the idea of evolution, in the sense that they say it does not contradict the Bible. (As a scientific theory they don't comment on it at all.) They don't allow for the idea of the evolution of the soul - God made the soul directly.

For what it is worth, nowhere does the Bible say that the Earth is 4000 years old. That is a theory, an extrapolation, a man-made idea. People regularly try to work out the end of the world by similar methods, and it tends not to be terrible successful in those instances. My personal opinion is that from a spiritual/religious point of view, the exact age of the world isn't very important.

Noah's ark - who knows. I suppose the animal's not eating each other could have been a miracle. But as HennyPenny pointed out, we can never know history in a scientific way. The story we have tells us an important religious truth about the relationship between God and humans. As far as the details go, I guess we will know one day - it can be interesting to think about but I would not let it be an obstacle to faith.

The Virgin Birth - or Was Jesus a Clone? Again, who knows what kind of process God initiated here. I suppose as Creator of the Universe he could have found some genetic material to supply. But again, we have no way of finding out. But this is one of the central mysteries of Christianity, Jesus who was fully God and fully man, yet one person, undivided. That is the Truth we need to cling to, and we sure don't know how it works. How the biology worked is I suppose part of that, but not the most mysterious part.

All of which is to say, remember that the Bible is trying tell you about the nature of God and mankind, and creation. It is not a scientific document. But you are allowed to use the reason God gave you to understand the world and his message. God is Truth, and ultimately reason and revelation lead to one truth, not two. Sometimes we can't see clearly how they fit together, but they do.

Originally Posted by nummies

I have been on a path to trying to figure things out. I am of a very science-oriented mind and am really struggling with my Christian roots. I was raised in a house where "God is real, that is all you need to know." Anytime I tried to ask specific questions it was shut down by saying "Don't question things like that."

My husband was forced into Catholic religion (his words) and does not believe at all anymore so he can't really answer these questions either.

So here it goes:

So God made the Earth right? Then what? Did he create dinosaurs too? Did he create those before man? I mean, the Earth is billions of years old. When did he create Adam and Eve? I have found info that says around 4000BC. But, we have human artifacts dating much earlier than that. How is that possible??

How did we get different races if Adam and Eve were of one race? I have heard some say that the races in different areas evolved over time (i.e. the sun made Africans dark-skinned). But doesn't that actually counter the argument of creation by God and add to the argument of evolution?

So we all came from Adam and Eve. So Adam and Eve's sons and daughters mated together? And they lived to be 800 years? I don't get how that is possible. Birth defects from similar chromosomes and all that.

Noah's Arc. I just can't get my head around that. They lived on this boat for a year and none of the animals had to eat? The lion didn't try to eat the lamb? Millions of species of animals were all on one boat?

So Mary's egg just started to grow into a human? There was no sperm needed? So technically it was like cloning? If someone claimed this today wouldn't we all be skeptical?

Ok, I have many more, but I will stop there. I am really trying to understand all of this. Hopefully to find my way back to God.

[fruitfulmomma]

For what it is worth, nowhere does the Bible say that the Earth is 4000 years old. That is a theory, an extrapolation, a man-made idea.

No, it doesn't but we believe is that it is close to 7,000 years old based on Old Testament genealogies. We can not know an exact figure, no, but it is recorded in the bible how long Adam, Seth, etc... lived and that is where this figure comes from.

Also, several people have brought up God using evolution, (That is, Macro, or species acquiring new information and changing into new species.) and the idea that the story of creation is not literal. The problem with that idea is that the bible specifically places death *after* sin. See Romans 5:12. According to the evolutionary timeline, there were billions of years of death and decay *before* sin, before man evolved. How do you recollect the two? And if you do not believe in a literal fall, what need have you of a literal Christ to save you from your literal sins?

[fruitfulmomma]

Regarding the animals on the ark, I was going to add that there is no reason to believe that the animals weren't caged just like animals in a zoo today. In the early chapters of Genesis we see people working with metal and it is plausible to assume they had technological advances that would allow them to make all sorts of constructs to hold animals in.

And HennyPenny is right that a worldwide flood would account for the earths fossil layers. It has been observed in local floods that this can happen very quickly and does not need millions of years to take place.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma

No, it doesn't but we believe is that it is close to 7,000 years old based on Old Testament genealogies. We can not know an exact figure, no, but it is recorded in the bible how long Adam, Seth, etc... lived and that is where this figure comes from.

Also, several people have brought up God using evolution, (That is, Macro, or species acquiring new information and changing into new species.) and the idea that the story of creation is not literal. The problem with that idea is that the bible specifically places death *after* sin. See Romans 5:12. According to the evolutionary timeline, there were billions of years of death and decay *before* sin, before man evolved. How do you recollect the two? And if you do not believe in a literal fall, what need have you of a literal Christ to save you from your literal sins?

My point with the actual dating is that using geneologies to extrapolate the age of the Earth is a human idea about how we can use scripture. It has to be defended on the grounds that it is an appropriate way to use that information, it can't be assumed. It is not at all the same thing as if it actually said "God made the Earth X number of years ago."

I think, with regard to your second point, that there is a lot more ground to cover than what you have suggested. What is death in in this context is a good one. Are we talking about death of the body or soul? As Christians we believe that our souls are eternal, even after the fall, so is the passage really talking about death of the soul? What kind of place was the garden, anyway, and what is it's relationship to the world we see around us now? Some people think that the Garden only existed for a moment of time - that in some sense we fell as soon as we were created, beginning the history of the Earth that we know. Others would say that the fall happened when the first human beings became aware of good and evil and made the fateful choice, but that it affected all of history, including what came before. But these details are probably not terrible important and are impossible to know anyway.

I'm not sure why you think I don't believe in a literal fall? I think that the Fall is in fact the whole point of the account of the fall. Honestly, I am really pissed off that you are implying that I don't believe in a literal Christ, and I am not a naturally emotional person . I think everything in the Bible is true, but I don't think this sort of 20th century idea of literalism - not even an 18th century idea - has much to do with the Bible - it isn't how the people who wrote it worked, and it isn't how it was understood, even in the Protestant churches, until very recently. I am somehow skeptical that the true understanding of the Bible was lost until 150 years ago.

For the record, evolutionary theory is a scientific theory. It looks like it is a fairly strong one, as such things go. On the other hand, science is only capable of certain limited claims, it makes deductions based on a revelation that is incomplete. But it's truth or lack thereof isn't really important to how I understand the nature of God or my relationship to him.

[TzippityDoulah]

"literalism" is a really subjective word...

I think I've said this before on another thread, but to say the bible is "literal" or not literal is not really a black and white issue. it was literally written by people who wrote it. it is a literary work. it has literal relevence... but it is clear, like any other book that there are parts which are poems, stores, parables, commmands and history. the Bible is best read with understanding of that context. It's no a made up book of parables and fables anymore than it's a science textbook. one must think about the writer's intent for each book and each word. The books of law have a different intent and purpose than the books of poetry... etc

While I do believe that the geneologies give us good insight on roughly how old the earth is, I don't think that was the main point. why? well frankly b/c it really isn't important. would one believe in god more if the Bible said "the world is exactly 6,035 yrs old"? really we woud just then be able ot pick apart why we think it isn't that age. But as it's been said here... you can't prove history by science- you can only speculate given the info provided.

Adama and Eve could have been here for a million years before the fall... or it could have been a week. the only thing that leads most people to believe it's less time instead of more is the human's tendency to be greedy. It's hard to understand how it could have taken them all that long to feel greed.

[nummies]

Thank you all for the replies. I am going to go over each and every one. I just wanted to say thanks up front!

[AndVeeGeeMakes3]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

All of which is to say, remember that the Bible is trying tell you about the nature of God and mankind, and creation. It is not a scientific document. But you are allowed to use the reason God gave you to understand the world and his message. God is Truth, and ultimately reason and revelation lead to one truth, not two. Sometimes we can't see clearly how they fit together, but they do.

:
I'd have quoted the whole post, but this pretty much sums up what I think.

[fruitfulmomma]

I'm not sure why you think I don't believe in a literal fall? I think that the Fall is in fact the whole point of the account of the fall. Honestly, I am really pissed off that you are implying that I don't believe in a literal Christ, and I am not a naturally emotional person .

I am sorry for the confusion, but my second paragraph was not directed personally at *you*. I was not implying that you did or did not believe anything.

But it's truth or lack thereof isn't really important to how I understand the nature of God or my relationship to him.

Well, it is important to me and obviously it is important to the OP or else she wouldn't be asking these questions. I believe Rom 5:12 is referencing to both physical and spiritual death. (The bible specifically states that when God looked at His creation it was "good". Are death and suffering "good"?) As such I can not reconcile billions of years of death prior to the fall.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma

I am sorry for the confusion, but my second paragraph was not directed personally at *you*. I was not implying that you did or did not believe anything.

Well, I am sorry to have misunderstood you. However, I think that if you assume that anyone who does not think the Genesis story needs to be taken as historical narrative doesn't believe in a literal Christ, you are mistaken. Which might suggest that the two are not obviously incompatible.

Well, it is important to me and obviously it is important to the OP or else she wouldn't be asking these questions. I believe Rom 5:12 is referencing to both physical and spiritual death. (The bible specifically states that when God looked at His creation it was "good". Are death and suffering "good"?) As such I can not reconcile billions of years of death prior to the fall.

Yes, it seemed she thought that if she wanted to believe what it told her, she had to reject the theory of evolution as a viable scientific model. It would be nice if she realized that that isn't required. She might decide eventually that she thinks it is, but many people have rejected Christianity before they even get into the nitty-gritty because they are told that it is the only option. No one tells them that Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Episcopal, and many other groups do not require it.

But do you mean to say that if you became convinced evolution was true you would stop being a Christian?

Personally, I tend to think of the whole Garden episode and the Fall happening outside of time. So your issues with "before" and "after" aren't a problem. It has the added advantage of being a theory that predates the whole evolution question and is helpful with other problems like God condemning them to death. But it, again, is a theological theory. We don't know for sure.

[fruitfulmomma]

But do you mean to say that if you became convinced evolution was true you would stop being a Christian?

I mean to say I do not think the two are reconcilable for the reasons I've already given. (Death and suffering occurring in a "good" creation before sin.)

I do not think that a belief in a literal six day creation is necessary for the Christian faith, because I believe that faith is a gift to us from God and not of ourselves and because we are all still sinners until the day of our glorification, not one of us will think a rightly about all things. But that is a whole 'nother discussion.

[mykdsmomy]

Just wanted to throw my 2cents in on the whole literal interpretation of Genesis.

Our pastor has said that Genesis was not meant to be a "blueprint" of God's creation. He's not giving us the blueprints of how he made everything and in what timeframe.

I personally believe wholeheartedly in Christ and his teachings. I just don't think that we'll ever get the bible to fit in our science. We are like hamsters living in a cage basing our theories on the tiny bit of info we have in our cage (earth). We can't possibly know everything. it's late...hope that made some sense...lol

[Mommal]

You shouldn't try to learn science from the Bible any more than you should try to understand religious truth from a science textbook.

[lovebeingamomma]

You're questions are very valid and very wonderful to ponder.

Be careful not to look at the Bible as something up for anyone's interpretation. Or believe something because someone on here said it or because a Pastor said it. The Bible was never meant to be a code that needed a wise person to understand. It's meant for the those who have faith in Jesus Christ or whom the Holy Spirit is revealing it to to bring to Christ. He gives us the wisdom to understand His Words.

Again your questions are all very valid and in my opinion very "fun" to discuss. But without Christ it is all foolishness.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.