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Christian/ bible reading members...I need some help. - Page 2

post #21 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post
And if you do not believe in a literal fall, what need have you of a literal Christ to save you from your literal sins?
I'm a Christian and I'll take this one. I think of Christ as a way-shower. A perfectly realized human. They say we only use small percentage of our brains. What if Christ was a human who used all of his brain power? Who showed us the human potential we have locked inside all of us? In my church sin means simply to err, to miss your mark. You can pick yourself back up again and start anew each time. We do not believe in the concept of original sin. Anyway, I just wanted to add some voices here (I have an undergraduate degree in biology) that the Christianity and Science and Faith are not mutually exclusive.

As far as Mary goes, I think there is some evidence that the word translated as virgin actually meant something more like maiden, or the generic term for a young unmarried girl. In my faith it's simply not important whether Mary was a literal virgin or if that particular Bible story was simply borrowed from an earlier myth and used for Jesus. She is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is a son of god/child of the universe - just like we all are. Jesus and other prophets appear throughout history as examples of fully realized humans. I do believe that we all have that potential inside us - just like Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, etc.
post #22 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
I'm a Christian and I'll take this one. I think of Christ as a way-shower. A perfectly realized human. They say we only use small percentage of our brains. What if Christ was a human who used all of his brain power? Who showed us the human potential we have locked inside all of us? In my church sin means simply to err, to miss your mark. You can pick yourself back up again and start anew each time. We do not believe in the concept of original sin. Anyway, I just wanted to add some voices here (I have an undergraduate degree in biology) that the Christianity and Science and Faith are not mutually exclusive.

As far as Mary goes, I think there is some evidence that the word translated as virgin actually meant something more like maiden, or the generic term for a young unmarried girl. In my faith it's simply not important whether Mary was a literal virgin or if that particular Bible story was simply borrowed from an earlier myth and used for Jesus. She is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is a son of god/child of the universe - just like we all are. Jesus and other prophets appear throughout history as examples of fully realized humans. I do believe that we all have that potential inside us - just like Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, etc.
I have to say, I have always found that explanation of the virginity of Mary strange. While it may be reasonable from a translation point of view, it doesn't make any sense from a narrative point of view, unless you assume the story is made up. She would hardly have been surprised to find herself pregnant if she had been having sex with someone.
post #23 of 34
Quote:
You're questions are very valid and very wonderful to ponder.

Be careful not to look at the Bible as something up for anyone's interpretation. Or believe something because someone on here said it or because a Pastor said it. The Bible was never meant to be a code that needed a wise person to understand. It's meant for the those who have faith in Jesus Christ or whom the Holy Spirit is revealing it to to bring to Christ. He gives us the wisdom to understand His Words.

Again your questions are all very valid and in my opinion very "fun" to discuss. But without Christ it is all foolishness.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This is my favourite statement so far in this discussion.

Quote:
But without Christ it is all foolishness.
And that there is my favourite part of that statement. Now, Ive gone thru questioning these things too and for some time it did throw me, as far as my faith is concerned. The thing is tho, I knew Christ, and I couldnt deny Him. It came to a point in my faith, my walk, where I had to admit that I knew nothing except Him. Every point you came up with, that you say you sort of question, I still question. But what I question is the mainstream 'interpretatioin' of those biblical doctrines. Now, Ive been thru a lot, and I know that God is real bc of what Ive been thru, so I cannot deny Him, I cannot deny Christ, but I can question the way, lets say, certain 'groups' of christians 'believe' how the bible should be interpreted. Ill be bold here and say that if you can question these things and keep Christ as the center and focus... you will be 'safe'. I say 'safe' bc it is true that we need Him for our salvation. Whether the rest of the world wants to deny it or not, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt He is truth. And I also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that without Him we are not on solid ground, we are not safe. Take that or leave it. I know that on forums all this can come across as ... harsh but I dont mean it like that. Honestly. Ive run out of time here for now so I hope Ive been clear enough. I know I havent answered your questions, and I personally dont like AnswersInGenesis. I personally dont look to others in any way shape of form for validation. I ask for opinions but life is too short for me to sift thru all that christendom has to offer. It is far better to go to the Source of All information and wisdom... and that is God himself and the bible. I can take what is in Genesis and gleen from it so much. I do believe in a virgin birth, I do believe in Jesus' death and ressurrection. I do believe in Jesus' atoning sacrifice for our sins. That it isnt a universal salvation, but that one does have to believe in Jesus Christ, that He is God's son. I believe it is difficult to accept. I believe that we dont have to understand everything BEfore accepting Christ, but that once we do accept Him, we do gain understanding that ... is out of this world.
sending with tons of respect and love even.
God Bless!
gen
post #24 of 34
Just have a minute and I really want to come back and read this whole thread, but I wanted to add a link that I really love . . . http://growingchristians.org/cfgc/index.html

Written by a Bible college professor with a doctorate in chemical engineering. It has strong Biblical answers but also support in science. Hope it's helpful.

Check out the two courses on Christian evidences.

Great thread. I'm looking forward to spending some time studying it later!
post #25 of 34
Not sure if this will be at all helpful, but this is what the OP brought to mind.

As PPs have said, Scripture was intended to explain the most significant things about God and His relationship with humankind. Yes, the universe was brought into existence by God. Exactly how and when He did this is not explained, except sometimes metaphorically; we would not be able to understand a description of how God created time, space, and matter even if one could be written. More to the point, how would that information help us?

The creation of the universe was a miracle, in the sense that we cannot understand how it was done, and it was accomplished outside the set of natural laws we observe every day. It makes very little sense to say, "How could God bring the whole universe out of nothing? Nobody can do that!" It is certainly true: logically the universe should not exist, wherever it came from. But it does exist. The same applies to life on earth, which was either created out of nothing, or rose spontaneously out of non-living matter. Both are unlikely in the extreme. Accept that our being here is impossibly weird, and move on.

The same applies to other miracles. They are "miracles" because they occur outside the "rules" of nature. In the ordinary course of things, people do not come back to life after decomposing in the tomb several days, or conceive a baby without having sex, or ignore gravity. This can only be done by someone who is operating outside the rules, who invented the rules in the first place, and who is outside, and beyond, the game entirely. No matter what philosophy you apply to the natural universe, religious or scientific, you have to eventually arrive at something/someone which is outside/beyond that universe. When you get to that, any discussion about natural law becomes absurd.

We often hear that Christians bend and twist the Bible (or other information) to conform to predetermined ideas, and frankly, it is very often true. What I think is equally true is that science often does the same. Science is sometimes presented as the opposite of religious faith, something totally rational, something that has no agenda, but just looks objectively at the evidence. In reality, I think science has its own preconceived notions. It has limitations. In the end, when we all find out the true origins of the universe and everything living in it, I assume we will all be surprised, believers and scientists alike. I take the view that the vast majority of what we "know" about the material world is wrong, but fortunately our lives and souls do not depend on accurate data. If that were true, mathematicians would be the holiest people on earth, and shepherds would have no chance of being saved.
post #26 of 34
Mamabadger, you rock. another great pov. Cheers for saying all that.
post #27 of 34
Interesting book about science and religion...Galileo Goes To Jail. Not written by Christians. Some of the authors of the various chapters are areligious. But it points out a number of myths about Christianity supposedly being in opposition to science.
post #28 of 34
Very well said, Mamabadger! Most well known scientists will agree that they don't have all the answers. Many will also agree that there must be a higher power in the creation of the universe because much of their questions are not answered or cannot be explained by our science.
post #29 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
?

The creation of the universe was a miracle, in the sense that we cannot understand how it was done, and it was accomplished outside the set of natural laws we observe every day. It makes very little sense to say, "How could God bring the whole universe out of nothing? Nobody can do that!" It is certainly true: logically the universe should not exist, wherever it came from. But it does exist. The same applies to life on earth, which was either created out of nothing, or rose spontaneously out of non-living matter. Both are unlikely in the extreme. Accept that our being here is impossibly weird, and move on.


We often hear that Christians bend and twist the Bible (or other information) to conform to predetermined ideas, and frankly, it is very often true. What I think is equally true is that science often does the same. Science is sometimes presented as the opposite of religious faith, something totally rational, something that has no agenda, but just looks objectively at the evidence. In reality, I think science has its own preconceived notions. It has limitations. In the end, when we all find out the true origins of the universe and everything living in it, I assume we will all be surprised, believers and scientists alike. I take the view that the vast majority of what we "know" about the material world is wrong, but fortunately our lives and souls do not depend on accurate data. If that were true, mathematicians would be the holiest people on earth, and shepherds would have no chance of being saved.
This is very interesting because both of these statements very clearly fall within what scientists say, but are not what they usually tell kids learning science in school, or even in undergraduate degrees.

Physicists are quite clear that science can not tell us how the universe came into being, or why there is a universe, or what happens outside of the universe.

As well, there is a lot of scholarly work going on now in universities about the very real cultural dimension of science. One aspect that is being looked at is how our assumptions, cultural and otherwise, about how things work/are get transmitted to the kinds of theories scientists look for, the information they record or think unimportant, the structures they create. That does not even include people with a clear agenda trying to manipulate truth (oil companies, say), that is with people trying there best to understand scientific truths.


There was a really good series on this on the CBC radio show Ideas. It was called How to Think About Science and people can find it here.
post #30 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
As far as Mary goes, I think there is some evidence that the word translated as virgin actually meant something more like maiden, or the generic term for a young unmarried girl. In my faith it's simply not important whether Mary was a literal virgin or if that particular Bible story was simply borrowed from an earlier myth and used for Jesus. She is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is a son of god/child of the universe - just like we all are. Jesus and other prophets appear throughout history as examples of fully realized humans. I do believe that we all have that potential inside us - just like Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, etc.
Well, it matters a lot because the entire premise of the christian church is that Jesus is the son of God. If Jesus was actually the son of a Roman soldier then that makes it an entirely different ball o'wax for a few million people.

OP you might want to take a look at these links also, since AiG is being quoted extensively.

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au...yths_henke.htm

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au...moth_henke.htm

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/aig_and_algae.htm

http://ncseweb.org/rncse/18/6/over-h...amel-challenge

http://aigbusted.com/Common_Questions.php

http://aigbusted.com/The_Lies.php

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au...ext_quotes.htm

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au...n_genesis2.htm

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008...i-and-aig.html

OP I was where you are at a few years ago. The bottom line for me is that if the biblical/liturgical God created the earth, then science would corroberate (or at the very least reconcile itself) with the bible/various holy books claiming their God created the earth. The more you read, the more you will see that isn't the case. AiG is one of many groups that doesn't use actual science to get to their end result, invalidating the large majority of their arguments.
post #31 of 34
Another good resource for Christianity and logic/science might be Dinesh D'souza. I don't know that his politics would be palatable to many hear, but I heard a neat interview with him yesterday specifically about the need to be able to defend Christianity logically and that the idea that religion and science are always at odds is a false one. Many of the greatest scientific thinkers of times past, from whom we got important theories and discoveries, were not just believers but devoutly so. : While there may be some ignorant, silly people who are Christians, that doesn't meant that Christianity prompted their ignorance.
post #32 of 34
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post #33 of 34
And how could I forget...Lee Stroble! :
post #34 of 34
One point that comes to my mind is that the bible didn't fall from the sky already written. It was written by the hand of man, 'inspired' by god. What does that mean exactly? Well, I take it to mean that people wrote it within the context that they lived, limited by their understanding of the world, in spite of being inspired.

If scientific discoveries made in the meantime are true, would the bible have said anything different than what it says? I don't think so. If it were scientifically accurate thousands of years ago, it would have been a complete jumble of nonsense to people and thrown into the proverbial landfill. Genesis is a simple, easy-to-understand account of the beginning of the world, which is written in the context of an extremely limited understanding of the workings of the world. To take it literally in this day and age is mind-boggling to me. Same with Noah's ark. Even with today's technology it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to house and successfully care for so many animals on a ship, let alone repopulate the earth. There is a real point to the story, but imo the literal story is not the point.

Taking it literally obviously works for a lot of people- the problem is that the AiG folks have their answers and will not waiver in spite of any evidence to the contrary. They pick and choose and dishonestly misrepresent science to their benefit, to an audience who largely wants the same answers. They also use the same tired arguments that have been refuted repeatedly.

To the op- there is truth to be found in the bible, but I have rejected trying to find literal truth in supernatural stories.
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