Re: pregnant and trying to make the decision(LONG)
|Originally posted by sunfairy
[B]Hi..I haven't posted here before..I'm pregnant and the early ultrasound looks like a boy. My first boy.
Congratulations on your pregnancy Stacey!
|One of the first things I thought about was circumcision.
I think it's really sad that so many people have to entertain frightening, confusing and distressed feelings because they percieve a societal expectation to cut a part of their child off.
I think you might benefit from reading the book "The Secret Life of the Unborn Child" by Thomas Verney
I think this expectation (circumcision), in and of itself, is a form of agression against motherhood... it's a way of taking our sons from us... A power play of the status quo over your own moral standard. I feel it's like a test... like a lecher pushing further and further up your skirt... only it's your maternal virtue that is being tested... "can I touch him here? " "how about here?" "with a knife" "Yes?" "oh comon... everybody does it..." "I know you are nervous... you can trust me... it will only hurt for a second..."
At what point are you allowed to say "no" if you have already allowed the status quo to get that far with your child?
Once they have their scar on your child, they have proof that your boundries are crossable. I think that is what this is all about- what this whole cultural genital marking thing is... it's about prepping you, as a parent, to lay down.
|I don't know where I stand on the issue. On one hand I like the idea of not choppping off parts of the body and putting a baby through undue pain and suffering. I'm a cloth diapering, homeschooling, organic foods, extended bf type of mama...so the idea of staying all natural sounds good to me.
On the other side, all the men and boys in my family are circ, my husband (though not an entirely religious man) says in the bible God says to Abraham to circ his boys, there's this issue..I hear that un circ penises produce a natural substance to keep it clean and keep good bacteria around...It may be shallow but that kinda grosses me out...(as I think a prospective wife may be) My husband also says there was a boy in his high school who was so embarassed, he had the procedure done at 16, which in my opinion would be more traumatic.
actually, the way you broke this down does not sound like the two ways YOU feel about the issue... it sounds like the way you feel about it... and they way everyone ELSE is prepping you to lay down... all the subtle little quiet coercion... "shhh... comon ba-by, it's in the Bi-ble ...how bad could it be?"
As for the ponts they have put up against your innate human maternal instinct- here we go one by one...
Unless you are Jewish, the presence of circumcision in the bible is of no relevance to your family. In fact, circumcision of Christians would be a step away from the purpose of Jesus being born, his teachings, and ultimatly, his death. In fact, today, this is the day Jesus was cicumcised... eight days after the day he was born. His circumcision was the circumcision to end all circumcisions... with the coming of the Messiah, the purpose of the blood ritual of circumcision has been finished. If you need more help researching the christian aspects of circumcision- please say so, we are nt supposed to discuss religion here, but I think we can help to point you to some resources.
You say all the men and boys in your family ARE circ.
Do you KNOW this for a fact? How far back? And for what PURPOSE were they circumcised? My husband thought this was the case for his family too- turns out he was the very first male to be circumcised in his family on either side and his circumcision was done without any parental consent (permission) He was just in the nursery and the Dr. did it to him without even asking anyone... THAT is hardly a reason to start a family tradition "we are circumcisers!" And yet- everyone was all clammed up about it and no one told my husband the truth about his circumcision when I was pregnant.
What if your grandad had been circumcised so he would not masturbate... and then your dad was circumcised because his dad was... and so on... would the fact that it HAD happened be reason enough to do it... or do you think the original motivation should be reassesed each and every generation? Would you circumcise your child to make it harder for him to masturbate? Is that purpose appealing to you? That was the motivating purpose that got circumcision rolling in this country... what if each generation had a different "line" that was fed to them by their seducer? ... a different foot stuck in the door they are willing to open only because they had an idea that this visitor had been entertained by the family in the past?... what if one generation they want to stop masturbation (they sell this excuse to intact people who get
it ... but by the next generation (a circumcised generation) the Dr.s don't want to continue to dwell on this idea of sexual damage... after all- the circumcised dad is listening now, and he want to think he is undamaged... so they say "it's cleaner"...(that makes circumcised dad feel good) then maybe the next generation they say "to look like dad" but that excuse would not work for the first generation they sold it to... they keep switching lines. Then we have to fit in with our peers... then we have to make it nice to get a blow job... on and on.
How many excuses do Americans have to circumcise their children?
How many excuses do Europeans have?
If these "excuses" were "reasons" don't you think loving health minded regular christian Europeans who have heterosexual relationships would be wrestling with this decision just like you? But they don't. It doesn't even enter their mind.
You say you heard about some substance that has you grossed out... have you heard that you also happen to have that substance on your genitals? Who would be grossed out by you? Who would cut you because of it? Is it fair that men should have externalised and dried out internal aspects of their genitals to please the learned prefrence of women who have been offered this option on "our men" do you think that men should have this option for "their women" if they like it that way?
|To make matters kinda worse, the birth center has a usual 4 hour afterbirth stay and circs aren't performed until the baby is at least a day or two old...so I would actually have to make an appt..where? the pediatrician? the hospital I was trying to avoid?
and bring my baby to its pain.
Well, that sure makes it tough for you. But the responsibility is the same. Hospital circumcisions are sure easy where all you have to do is sign the paper and then roll over and put the pillow over your head and cry... it would be a lot harder on YOU if you had to really do a lot of work, reseach, scheduling and driving to get a piece of your son's penis cut off... straping him back in the car seat with the strap right across his penis, a bloody munched up wound in a bunchy diaper- that's got to hurt... and it's probably hard to drive after you have been sobbing in the waiting room listening to him scream...but ultimatly- he is the one who is losing the sexual anatomy, it's not about you.
You can find an GP, a PED, a Urologist or a Jewish Mohel (ritual circumciser) to do a circumcision. Different circumcisers have different methods, philosophies, pain relief methods (or lack) prices... this is all stuff you will have to research locally. The regional chances of finding a circumciser who also uses anesthesia is touch and go... you have to be your child's advocate... you must speak up on his behalf... :http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/101/6/e5
This is something that many parents will live to regret. Maybe if you read some of their stories you can discover if your sympathies are similar enough to these people's... I can't say that you WILL regret this if you do it... from what you say about yourself I get the feeling that you would be one of those people- but I don't know... see if their warnings might ring true to you,or if you think your situation is not similar enough to apply:http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/mothers.html
|well thanks for listening..I know this is a dilema each mother must take a side on with her boy, I appreciate your thoughts.
I guess we all have to take sides, but this was not a dilemma for me. Because I have had intimate relationships with intact european men, I would never dream of cutting a part of my child's sex organ off. Just because my husband is a fantastic lover and is circumcised... does not mean that what was done to him was without harm... it was HIS penis and no one had a right to take any part of him. The foreskin is not something that is "not necissary to cut off" it is a functional part of errogenous anatomy... it is more than "not necissary" or "painful" to cut off my clitoris... it's WRONG.