103 fever in 6.5 month old WWYD? UPDATE post #52 - Page 8

[WuWei]

Here is more information regarding avoiding drug-resistant bacteria: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...5&postcount=12

Basically, UNNECESSARY antibiotics are the cause, not avoiding antibiotics when NOT needed.

Drug resistance results when a bacterial infection is not being treated adequately (broad spectrum antibiotics vs. bacterial specific antibiotics), or when antibiotics are given for viral illnesses inappropriately. The bacteria develop resistance due to *exposure* to the "wrong" (ie. ineffective) antibiotics. If the antibiotic is the appropriate one, the infectious bacteria are killed. Antibiotics are NOT indicated for a viral illness.

Continuing exposure to the antibiotics unnecessarily, just strengthens the potential for resistance TO develop. http://www.cdc.gov/NARMS/faq_pages/3.htm

Here is info from the FDA regarding "The Rice of Antibiotic Resistant Infections": http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/795_antibio.html

"Superbugs" develop due to inappropriate use of *multiple different* antibiotics. "Several studies have demonstrated that patterns of antibiotic usage greatly affect the number of resistant organisms which develop. Overuse of broad-spectrum antibiotics, such as second- and third-generation cephalosporins, greatly hastens the development of methicillin resistance. Other factors contributing towards resistance include incorrect diagnosis, unnecessary prescriptions, improper use of antibiotics by patients, the impregnation of household items and children's toys with low levels of antibiotics, and the administration of antibiotics by mouth in livestock for growth promotion."

"Improper use of antibiotics by patients" is when the antibiotic given is indicated, but the patient doesn't continue it for the duration to effectively kill the bacteria. There is no indication for antibiotics in simple ear infections, based upon the research, noted above.

"Multiple resistance, multiple causes
Any time bacteria are exposed to an antibiotic, they are under "selective pressure" that allows only resistant forms to survive and reproduce. So the basic rule in slowing the evolution of resistance is reducing the unnecessary use of antibiotics."
http://whyfiles.org/038badbugs/scope.html

"Every time antibiotics are used unnecessarily, they add to the selective pressure we are putting on microbes to evolve resistance. Then, when we really need antibiotics, they are less effective." http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/li.../l_104_03.html


http://www.thebulletin.org/web-editi...stant-bacteria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_resistance
http://www.cdcfoundation.org/healtht...esistance.aspx

superbugs, infections that are drug-resistant because of the over-prescription of antibiotics. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614935.shtml


Pat

[WuWei]

Actually, yes, one round of antibiotics can damage the gut integrity and immune system: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...078&highlight=

The mama's baby developed C.Diff with just a short round of unnecessary antibiotics.


Pat

[Amylcd]

Originally Posted by monkeybum

I'm really glad you posted this and thank you to everyone for the info. I have found myself in this exact situation so many times, (twice with my older son when he was an infant - he's now 5yo, and 3 times my now 2-year old, the first time he was only 8 months old). They had the cough and wheezing, sometimes a fever, I take them to the doc only to get a note for work and they were diagnosed with pneumonia each time, (never via x-ray though). They were prescribed abx each time. I gave it for a day or two, they got better so I never finished the abx. I had no idea it was a bad idea. (The chest infection - whatever it was - never came back).

My 2 year old was diagnosed with pneumonia two more times this past winter (again, no chest xray) and I didn't even bother with the abx - just chiro visits, chest clapping, steamy baths, cold air, nursing, humidifier, etc.).

My chiropractor says that MDs are not generally used to breast-fed babies who are not vaccinated and who generally have strong immune systems, so they tend to over-prescribe abx. However, if I do use them in the future, I'll be sure to finish the dose. Thank you for this info!

OP, I hope your wee one is doing better. It is so scary and exhausting when they are that sick at such a young age.

Are you saying your children are generally healthy? Because this makes me think that their immune systems are not working as they should be.

My 2 year old was diagnosed with pneumonia two more times this past winter

Two more times this past winter? As in, they have had pneumonia multiple times in their life and two times in one winter?

My chiropractor says that MDs are not generally used to breast-fed babies who are not vaccinated and who generally have strong immune systems, so they tend to over-prescribe abx.

I can not see a child with a strong immune system getting pneumonia this often.

[Mama Dragon]

Originally Posted by WuWei

...

You do realize before antibiotics were developed that LOTS of people died from infections, and you do also realized that bacteria mutated all on it's lonesome before then?

Antibiotics are over prescribed. Yes. They have caused super bugs to develop. Yes. We.still.need.them.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

You do realize before antibiotics were developed that LOTS of people died from infections, and you do also realized that bacteria mutated all on it's lonesome before then?

Antibiotics are over prescribed. Yes. They have caused super bugs to develop. Yes. We.still.need.them.

I agree wholeheartedly that antibiotics are a WONDERFUL thing in so many situations.

However I have read in numerous places that the usefulness of antibiotics is SEVERELY limited time-wise and we are reaching the end of their run. It is likely that within our lifetime, and nearly certain that within our children or grandchildren's lifetime that antibiotics will no longer be useful.

Interesting (and admittedly scary!) idea to ponder.

-Angela

[WuWei]

Mama, I believe that the "symptoms" have resolved due to the prednisone. I agree that bacterial pneumonia may NOT have a fever. However, your baby DID have a fever. Prednisone could *mask* the fever. The prednisone also resolves the fluid and wheezing, the lack of symptoms AFTER taking prednisone does not indicate that baby is "better", IMO.

When we suppress the reactions with antihistamines or steroids, the toxins are not eliminated. We just halt the body's ability to respond to the toxin and to remove it. Thus the toxins affect other body organs: lungs (asthma), gut (more and more allergies develop), stomach (poor digestion, reflux, ulcers), mouth (thrush, dental cavities, gingivitis), liver overloaded, etc. (but those aren't the acute issues, yet)

Also, the skin is an excretory mechanism for us to eliminate toxins. Does baby have any eczema, green mucusy stools, red ring around anus, rash, reflux, restless sleep "normally"?

However, I do NOT AGREE that "once one starts antibiotics, that one must finish antibiotic" IN THE EVENT of them being *unnecessary in the first place*, like with an ear infection in a child over age 2, or after antibiotic-induced diarrhea has started.

0800AM tomorrow morning, *I* would call the MD's office and notify them of the extensive and continuing diarrhea, which I believe is a much more dangerous problem than a fever in an infant. I would have a medical assessment of baby's lungs and hydration, for a professional opinion about the current "wellness". If MD feels that further antibiotic treatment is indicated, they will prescribe a DIFFERENT antibiotic. I'd also INSIST they send a stool for C. Diff, since the diarrhea has been ongoing. I would Not give the same antibiotic further. Nor would I wait until Monday to have my child medically assessed. I'd call FOR AN APPOINTMENT first thing in the morning, whoever is covering for the MD.

I would not have treated the fever, wheeze, cough with antibiotics without first consulting our professional homeopath. However, when one is wheezing, it means that their oxygen intake is impaired. Wheezing IS dangerous. There isn't "ok" wheezing.

The issue is that wheezing is a symptom that your baby's immune system is impaired. Why? Unfortunately, steroids and antibiotics further suppress the immune system. *I* would see a professional homeopath immediately, personally. There are many alternatives to improve the immune function. I imagine there is some underlying allergy issue, either environemental or dietary.

Basically, the medical treatments just masked the symptoms. Doesn't mean your baby is "better", imo.

Here is more information about eliminating environmental allergens: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...l#post13380214

I'd recommend consulting a professional homeopath for prescribing a classical homeopathic remedy specifically for his individual constitution. The homeopath would take into consideration other issues and address them concurrently, as they are part of the picture: dietary issues, sleep, eczema, the runny eyes, throat clearing, behaviors, fears, aversions, cravings, etc. All come into play, birth issues, chronic illness, etc.

I always prefer whole food probiotics. Not sure which probiotics you all are using. But, none of the bottled probiotics have the same ability to withstand the stomach acid and remain viable into the large intestine as non-dairy kefir, fermented vegetables. Those are quite easy, if you need more info.

I would eliminate dairy from your diet. Dairy is the most common source of dietary allergen and mucus production. Here is a list of hidden diary: http://www.kellymom.com/store/handou...dden-dairy.pdf

I recommend vitamins and minerals come from whole foods. But, have you been following the digestion, absorption, detox pathways discussions to gut healing and allergy resolution? Basically, if we digest the proteins, they don't leak and thus we have fewer toxins to detox. Proper stomach acid (HCl) and specific nutrients are required for detox. You can read more about all of this here: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...e#post13406780

Corn seems to be an issue for many folks, especially GMO-corn, which is about 70% of the food supply now, unfortunately. I'd consider eliminating that. But, it is hard as it is everywhere also. http://www.cornallergens.com/list/co...ergen-list.php

I'm no expert about gluten removal, but I believe I heard 6-12 weeks to see significant improvements. Dairy is quicker to see improvements (1-3 weeks). Gluten is hard to avoid completely also. And apparently, it is more important to be 100% gluten-free, or reactions are worse with any slight exposure, I believe.

Corn and wheat allergies are more commonly associated with wheezing, I believe.



HTH, Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

You do realize before antibiotics were developed that LOTS of people died from infections, and you do also realized that bacteria mutated all on it's lonesome before then?

Antibiotics are over prescribed. Yes. They have caused super bugs to develop. Yes. We.still.need.them.

I'm not "against" antibiotics. I am a advocate of optimizing our immune system, preferably with natural microbial balance in the gut, nutrient dense whole foods (especially cultured and fermented probiotics), and natural exposure to common diseases, and avoidance of unnecessary chemicals including pharmaceuticals for those common illnesses. I believe we can avoid and treat most diseases with nutrition and holistic health practices. Unfortunately, most people are not informed and healthy enough to choose a non-mainstream alternative. There is a cascade of side-effects and consequences of our mainstream health choices, ime.

Pat

[Maeve]

That's all well and good for prevention, but this isn't the time. Also, this child is obviously not healthy and needs treatment.
Please take your lo to be looked at again just to make sure that everything is ok. I'm not one to take meds or run to the dr. for every little thing, but breathing issues (esp. in a baby) is not something to mess with. I'm glad he seems to be doing better, but when it comes to my kids, I like to be sure. Kwim?

[Scullery]

You're basically outlining a medical treatment plan for her to follow, and I don't know if that is a good idea. She already sounds confused and overwhelmed, suggesting a C-diff culture and an allergy elimination diet protocol is not very effective. This is a little baby, too. Poor bug.

[purplepaisleymama]

I am not a medical professional but I do have a child who has had reactions to every abx that he has been prescribed. I will say that I have never been told by any of his doctors to have him continue a rx that he was reacting to. He has had diarrhea and vomiting and hives from taking an rx and they have always told me to discontinue the rx and they have said that if he were sick enough to have to have continued that they would use another rx. He is now considered allergic to more than 4 abx and if he were to need to take penicillin he would have to be hospitalized and desensitized to it. We have discussed this thoroughly with more than one of his docs as he is immune compromised and he has been very ill lately.
Last week he did have a very severe illness and his fever reached 106.5, I thought that our thermometer was broken and I found two more and used them, they were both the same. I had not had a child ever have a fever over 105 and I called his doctor. He was comfortable with us monitoring him at home and though he did have fever seizures, he has had them before and we were watching him. After the fever began to interfere with his sleep I gave him motrin. He threw it up and continued to do so the next two times that I have it to him. His fever broke at around 4:30 that morning. It was exactly as a pp described, he visibly relaxed and drifted into a restful sleep. Our children all ended up with the plague and they all reacted differently to the fever, a few were up and about with higher than 104 playing and a few went to bed and slept from just over a hundred. They all revovered at the same rate, regardless of the med given. Though I do not medicate often I did give tylenol if it was requested for headache, they never asked for it to relieve the fever.
In the past 4 years we have used less than one box of childrens tylenol for my older children, my youngest is another story. He has been different and has health issues that have made me have to reassess my parenting decisions and how we view medicine.

I do think that you have done a great job as a mother, your child is very important to you and it is very hard to not be stressed while in the midst of a health crisis with your child. You made decisions based on what you knew best at the time and you are learning more to educate yourself to help him for the future .......that is what parenting is. Please do not think yourself a failure, you are doing everything you can for your child. I would call your doctor and speak directly with him, if he is not available I would talk with his backup as soon as possible and discuss all of the choices you have made, be clear that you did not finish the abx and see what they suggest. I would guess that they will change the rx to another drug that may not have the same reaction and might test for c diff as that is a danger with any abx, especially with the severe diarrhea. They will be concerned about that as small children can dehydrate very quickly and it sounds as if he had some issues with this already in this illness. I hope that he and you feel better soon and that you can begin to feel more confident in your decisions as a parent.
Hugs mama

Laura

[graceomalley]

Originally Posted by alegna

I agree wholeheartedly that antibiotics are a WONDERFUL thing in so many situations.

However I have read in numerous places that the usefulness of antibiotics is SEVERELY limited time-wise and we are reaching the end of their run. It is likely that within our lifetime, and nearly certain that within our children or grandchildren's lifetime that antibiotics will no longer be useful.

Interesting (and admittedly scary!) idea to ponder.

-Angela

Can you please link to some sources for this? Thanks.

[graceomalley]

Originally Posted by Scullery

You're basically outlining a medical treatment plan for her to follow, and I don't know if that is a good idea. She already sounds confused and overwhelmed, suggesting a C-diff culture and an allergy elimination diet protocol is not very effective. This is a little baby, too. Poor bug.

I agree. Isn't offering that type of medical advice against the new UA? Can a mod please weigh in here?

[cat2116]

You do realize before antibiotics were developed that LOTS of people died from infections, and you do also realized that bacteria mutated all on it's lonesome before then?

Antibiotics are over prescribed. Yes. They have caused super bugs to develop. Yes. We.still.need.them.

:

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Honestly I am a lttle concerned that there seems to be such negative attitude to antibiotics being portrayed in this thread. Antibiotics are in some cases absolutely essential.

Diarrhea is not an allergic reaction to antibiotics, it is a side-affect and no it's not pleasant but preferable to the alternative in many cases. C.diff is not common after one course of antibiotics.

I believe we can avoid and treat most diseases with nutrition and holistic health practices. Unfortunately, most people are not informed and healthy enough to choose a non-mainstream alternative.

I believe this is not true and dangerous advice. Bacterial pneumonia NEEDS treatment with antibiotics. People die without them, and no this is not scare-mongering it is the truth.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Scullery

You're basically outlining a medical treatment plan for her to follow, and I don't know if that is a good idea. She already sounds confused and overwhelmed, suggesting a C-diff culture and an allergy elimination diet protocol is not very effective. This is a little baby, too. Poor bug.

I trust that parents can choose to *initiate* requests to a physician for testing. AND that they can choose to *initiate* elimination diets, if they are concerned about allergies. I don't believe that thinking for oneself is reserved to "medical treatment plans". Also, I advised calling the physician first thing this morning.

Please note if I wrote "you should" in any way.


Respectfully,
Pat

[WuWei]

I reported my post, due to stated concerns, for further evaluation by administration. OP contacted me by PM specifically requesting that I respond to her thread.


Pat

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by cat2116

Bacterial pneumonia NEEDS treatment with antibiotics. People die without them, and no this is not scare-mongering it is the truth.

Absolutely! Not giving the full course of antibiotics to an infant with bacterial pneumonia is almost guarranteeing that the illness will return much worse than before.


PLEASE finish the course of antibiotics for your child's sake.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by WuWei

I reported my post, due to stated concerns, for further evaluation by administration. OP contacted me by PM specifically requesting that I respond to her thread.


Pat

If you felt it important enough to report your own post wouldn't the best thing be for you to delete it as well so that others do not rely on that information before a decision is made by the mods as to if it is appropriate.

[Ceinwen]

Everything else aside - I'm an ICU nurse, and besides trauma patients, our biggest group of vents are pneumonia patients.

I've seen several otherwise healthy young to middle age adults die from pneumonia. The scary part is that it's a quick downhill slide, one minute they're fine, satting at 95% - next you have someone who we literally can not ventilate properly.

Please do finish the antibiotics, and contact a physician if you have questions.

My daughters and I also see a chiropractor and have a naturopath; however, working where I do and seeing what I see - I have an MD when I need access to stronger meds and testing.

[Maeve]

Originally Posted by alegna

I agree wholeheartedly that antibiotics are a WONDERFUL thing in so many situations.

However I have read in numerous places that the usefulness of antibiotics is SEVERELY limited time-wise and we are reaching the end of their run. It is likely that within our lifetime, and nearly certain that within our children or grandchildren's lifetime that antibiotics will no longer be useful.

Interesting (and admittedly scary!) idea to ponder.

-Angela

I would love to see some links please?

[grisandole]

I haven't examined every single post in this threads but from what I can see of the recent ones they are within the new posting guidelines

I do want to remind everyone to please keep the thread OT, debating the pros and cons of abx may be better for a different thread, but offering opinions on what the OP should do is fine!

Kristi