103 fever in 6.5 month old WWYD? UPDATE post #52 - Page 9

[Maeve]

Are we still required to show links to back up info?

[grisandole]

There is no requirement to show links to back up info

[Mama Dragon]

Am I missing something?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1069028

Originally Posted by georgia

Thanks! Yes, I definitely agree about the links, which is why I added "provide information or link" at the end of the example

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ement.php?f=45

Responses to Health Questions
In an effort to avoid giving the appearance of offering medical advice, we ask that members attempt to respond to health-related questions with general information regarding conditions, alternative approaches and/or evidence-based research rather than offering specific personal instruction. Members are welcome to share their personal experiences and opinions, but please avoid telling others what they “should” do in their unique situation. Trust members to make their own personal healthcare decisions, in conjunction with a trained care provider as necessary.

Phrases like in my experience, you might consider, many find, research shows, studies find, some find xyz successful/helpful, you could try, etc. are all helpful ways to provide information and express personal opinion rather than personalized instruction.

Quote:
Providing information: You might consider applying ______ or offering______, many parents find that _____works well for _____ and here is how I personally determine if one needs medical attention (provide information or link).

vs.

Providing medical advice: You should immediately administer _____ or you have xyz condition and should start taking _______.

[graceomalley]

Originally Posted by grisandole

There is no requirement to show links to back up info

I really don't want to contradict a mod (please don't give me the smack down) but I'm really confused because of the recent thread where abimommy said you must show links to back up any medical information - you can't just say "I read that ..." or "research shows that ..." and you can't offer treatment plans?

Here's the announcement in UC, I thought the admin clarified that it was a board wide announcement?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ment.php?f=306

[graceomalley]

Oops, we cross posted. I'm glad I'm not imagining things and that others have the same concerns.

[pixiekisses]

Originally Posted by WuWei

However, when one is wheezing, it means that their oxygen intake is impaired. Wheezing IS dangerous. There isn't "ok" wheezing.

Well, yeah there is. We have a kid that can wheeze and that being ok.
So, that's not really true. (And yeah, we have a pulseox, so we check.)
Wheezing just means that some part of the respiratory system is more narrow than usual/obstructed. It does not have to be dangerous.
But, it can be, so if you don't have a pulseox at home I'd take the kid to a doc to check it out.

[grisandole]

Sorry, I was short on time before. The new guidelines state to post link or information...so that does not mean you need to necessarily link...posting the information is okay as well. At least that is how I take it, I will double check!

[grisandole]

Checked with admin....links are NOT required when posting what one might do in a certain situation or regarding one's overall opinion on a topic.

If there are further questions about the new rules, please pm and admin or post to Q&S!

Kristi

[graceomalley]

Originally Posted by grisandole

Checked with admin....links are NOT required when posting what one might do in a certain situation or regarding one's overall opinion on a topic.

Thanks for that.

Just to clarify - you must post a link when you say something like 'research shows that ...' or 'I've read that ...' as abimommy stated in the Q&S thread, right?

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by graceomalley

Thanks for that.

Just to clarify - you must post a link when you say something like 'research shows that ...' or 'I've read that ...' as abimommy stated in the Q&S thread, right?

Could you post a link to "research shows that..." "as abimommy stated in the Q&S thread", please? I believe you mean this thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1059954 When I search that thread for "research" with user "abimommy", I didn't find any hits.


ETA: perhaps you are referring to this thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=link Where Georgia indicates "Links can be a very helpful way to provide further information so the OP can make a personal determination based on her/his unique circumstances."

And it would be scary for most folks if I link MORE.


Pat

[Maeve]

I was actually asking because of o post further up where a poster mentioned that antibiotics will no longer work within the next generation or so.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by cat2116

A short course of antibiotics is not going to be harmful in any way.

This is simply not true, and when people and medical professionals say things like this, I don't believe you are giving someone all the information they need to decide what is the best choice for their own particular situation.

Of course, we all know that there are times when abx save lives. We get that, yes, it's true, not many people would deny that (though there are probably a few who would). HOWEVER, I get frustrated when I hear people say things like, "Oh just one short course of abx is not going to hurt/cause damage/whatever." It is simply NOT true. You can have an allergic reaction. It can cause major gut damage that takes years to overcome, if ever, and can lead to food allergies, malabsorption, and antibiotic-resistant bacteria in that person.

Now, you might say the benefit of the abx in certain situations are worth taking those risks. Well, that's fine, but you canNOT make a choice if you are only being given half of the story.

Gosh, mamas, I think this is what the heart of MDC is all about, that we will all make different choices based on listening to our mama instinct and to what we feel our child needs in a particular situation. There really is no way to make blanket statements, like "all bacterial infections require abx". Because it's just not true. Yes, there were people years ago who died from pneumonia who would have lived had they had access to abx. But guess what, there are people who have died from allergic reactions to abx too. And there are people who have died from pneumonia even with getting abx.

We talk about seeing healthy strong people int he hospital dying from pneumonia, and yes that does happen, but no one can say what might have happened if that person had received a different treatment, such as classical homeopathy, for example. Or if that person in the hospital with pneumonia hadn't been fed hospital jello with high fructose corn syrup and red dye.

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

Zithromax is awesome. I remember when it first came out. Before then it was a really long course of amoxicillin for ear and other infections and kids just didn't do so well on it! Viral pneumonia wouldn't have responded to the abx. He would likely be still very sick if it was viral. Maybe better, but not much better like you report. You can safely assume it's bacterial just based on that. Going on that, now think about the low amount of abx he's gotten and how it's only killed the weakest bacteria, allowing him to seem better, but there's still bacteria in there. It's more important for him to get them JUST IN CASE. It will not harm him to get abx even if it were viral. The side effects will clear up, his system will be fine.

Zithromax was awesome for *you*. It is not awesome for everyone. My children reacted very badly to it and are now still trying to heal their guts over a year later from the damage it did. It is a very strong and powerful antibiotic.

And, yes, actually it CAN harm someone to take abx when the illness is viral. The abx can weaken the immune system and leave them vulnerable to abx-resistant bacteria.

Originally Posted by WuWei

Actually, yes, one round of antibiotics can damage the gut integrity and immune system: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...078&highlight=

The mama's baby developed C.Diff with just a short round of unnecessary antibiotics.


Pat

Yes, this, above.

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

You do realize before antibiotics were developed that LOTS of people died from infections, and you do also realized that bacteria mutated all on it's lonesome before then?

Antibiotics are over prescribed. Yes. They have caused super bugs to develop. Yes. We.still.need.them.

Of course we still need them, but we should have support to choose what is best for us. If you want to give abx, great, I am really glad they are available to you. I am not saying that sarcastically, I really, really mean that. But, if someone else doesn't want to give abx and wants to use homeopathy and supplements instead, then great, I am glad that choice is also available to them.

I just really wish we could do more sharing of information here, so people can feel supported in what choice they ultimately make.

Originally Posted by cat2116

:

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Honestly I am a lttle concerned that there seems to be such negative attitude to antibiotics being portrayed in this thread. Antibiotics are in some cases absolutely essential.

Diarrhea is not an allergic reaction to antibiotics, it is a side-affect and no it's not pleasant but preferable to the alternative in many cases. C.diff is not common after one course of antibiotics.



I believe this is not true and dangerous advice. Bacterial pneumonia NEEDS treatment with antibiotics. People die without them, and no this is not scare-mongering it is the truth.

Are you kidding me? There have been only a handful of people in this thread even supporting the fact that maybe you don't always want to use abx, and the majority have said, do it, don't worry, they are not so bad. Diarrhea is not just a side effect, and no it does not always just "go away when you cease the abx" or even soon after. I can attest to that.

Originally Posted by Ceinwen

Everything else aside - I'm an ICU nurse, and besides trauma patients, our biggest group of vents are pneumonia patients.

I've seen several otherwise healthy young to middle age adults die from pneumonia. The scary part is that it's a quick downhill slide, one minute they're fine, satting at 95% - next you have someone who we literally can not ventilate properly.

Please do finish the antibiotics, and contact a physician if you have questions.

My daughters and I also see a chiropractor and have a naturopath; however, working where I do and seeing what I see - I have an MD when I need access to stronger meds and testing.

Again, I just don't think it's either "abx" or "do nothing and sit and watch". There are a hundred other choices on the spectrum, many of which are valid. Who are we to know what is right and what is wrong? None of us do. We will know things 100 years from now that we can't even dream of now, just as we know things today that they never would have considered 100 years ago. So, I think we have to be humbler in our assurance of knowing what has to be done or not done. There are many different choices, and that's just what they are. Different. Not right or wrong. All the mamas here love their children with every fiber of their being. We wouldn't be here if we didn't. And we are all making the very best choices we can in each hour, each day.

[alegna]

Been out today- am now looking for specific links. Everything about antibiotic resistance alludes to it, but I'm looking for something cut and dried

Any scholarly article on antibiotic resistance will tell you that every antibiotic individually has a limited lifetime. And there are only so many new directions they've been able to go in antibiotic discovery/creation. Nearly all bacteria are becoming resistant as noted in numerous places:

"The number of bacteria resistant to antibiotics has increased in the last decade. Nearly all significant bacterial infections in the world are becoming resistant to the most commonly prescribed antibiotic treatments."

From:
http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002356.html

A quote within a quote:
"However, if the world fails to mount a more serious effort to fight infectious diseases, antimicrobial resistance will increasingly threaten to send the world back to a pre-antibiotic age...""

from:
http://www.tufts.edu/med/apua/News/A..._WHO_June2.htm

This may reference the same quote:
"...insufficient overall coordination of US (and international) efforts could mean a literal return to the preantibiotic era for many types of infections."

from:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...d_Discovery_RA

-Angela

[Mama Dragon]

momofmine, honest question here - would you have a 6 month old baby diagnosed with pnuemonia, and not give them antibiotics? Do you understand how deadly pneumonia is?

I'm guessing the answer is yes, and I'm guessing you'll say you'd do other natural healing methods in addition to the abx, and that's fine. But a baby with pnuemonia needs abx. Everything the OP has said has indicated her baby has a bacterial infection - mostly because he started getting better while on the abx. Do you think it's not indicated here? No vague answers, please. I'm talking about OP, 6 month old baby, pnuemonia that is most likely bacterial.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

No vague answers, please. I'm talking about OP, 6 month old baby, pnuemonia that is most likely bacterial.

It's not about being vague. Absolutely every single situation would be different. It would be very scary to have a 6-month old baby to be that sick, that is about all we can say and concur on.

We are seeing a mere snapshot of things in an online forum. There was no bloodwork done, no cultures grown. I am not saying the OP's baby did or did not need antibiotics.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by momofmine

We are seeing a mere snapshot of things in an online forum. There was no bloodwork done, no cultures grown. I am not saying the OP's baby did or did not need antibiotics.

Please see post #52:

We did a chest x-ray and the right lung showed pneumonia....i kept asking about viral vs bacterial...and he mentioned we could do a blood test to figure out which one....he also mentioned that in a baby this young ...he feels that we should treat right away...rather than wait and see...we've waited 4 days and it's gotten worse...i was almost in tears....as i had originally never wanted to take my baby to any doctors...i didnt want to give my baby medicine....i'm asking my self....what did i do wrong...did i not take care of my baby the way i should have...i feel so guilty right now....But i feel that he has to have the antibiotics and steriod....i am giving him a probiotic...plus i took him to our chiro who did did accupuncture today too.

The Dr did offer a blood test, no indication what the OP decided.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

momofmine, honest question here - would you have a 6 month old baby diagnosed with pnuemonia, and not give them antibiotics? Do you understand how deadly pneumonia is?

I have had a child diagnosed with pneumonia, and I did give them antibiotics. I have no idea if I would do the same thing again, in that same or in a different but similar situation, because that was years ago. What I am trying to say is that there are many alternatives. There are just too many variables, like how early/late in the illness alternative treatments are employed.

But it's not just a matter of "alternative treatments work for mild illnesses and not for serious ones". I am not passing judgment on either side, I am simply keeping an open mind that there are many possible choices.

[cat2116]

momofmine, honest question here - would you have a 6 month old baby diagnosed with pnuemonia, and not give them antibiotics? Do you understand how deadly pneumonia is?

I'm guessing the answer is yes, and I'm guessing you'll say you'd do other natural healing methods in addition to the abx, and that's fine. But a baby with pnuemonia needs abx. Everything the OP has said has indicated her baby has a bacterial infection - mostly because he started getting better while on the abx. Do you think it's not indicated here? No vague answers, please. I'm talking about OP, 6 month old baby, pnuemonia that is most likely bacterial.

Once again, I agree completley. Bacterial pneumonia is deadly, I nearly lost my DD at 17 months. In the case of pneumonia I would always give antibiotics just in case, unless you are 100% sure the pnuemonia is viral doing anything else is effectively gambling with your childs life.

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by alegna

Been out today- am now looking for specific links. Everything about antibiotic resistance alludes to it, but I'm looking for something cut and dried

Any scholarly article on antibiotic resistance will tell you that every antibiotic individually has a limited lifetime. And there are only so many new directions they've been able to go in antibiotic discovery/creation. Nearly all bacteria are becoming resistant as noted in numerous places:

"The number of bacteria resistant to antibiotics has increased in the last decade. Nearly all significant bacterial infections in the world are becoming resistant to the most commonly prescribed antibiotic treatments."

From:
http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002356.html

A quote within a quote:
"However, if the world fails to mount a more serious effort to fight infectious diseases, antimicrobial resistance will increasingly threaten to send the world back to a pre-antibiotic age...""

from:
http://www.tufts.edu/med/apua/News/A..._WHO_June2.htm

This may reference the same quote:
"...insufficient overall coordination of US (and international) efforts could mean a literal return to the preantibiotic era for many types of infections."

from:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...d_Discovery_RA

-Angela

I'd like to say that while I think Angela and I are on opposing sides to this argument (one can never really know on MDC! lol) I do agree with the general position that antibiotics are much, much overused - and to dangerous results.

Leaning again on my intensive care experience, I can say that we are now seeing strains of pneumonia (type A for example) that are extremely resilient, very difficult to treat, and scary for any age group. Antibiotics that we used a short time ago as our 'go to for anything' are becoming useless against pretty basic things now.

Antibiotics like Ceftriaxone and Flagyl - those were/are the big guns. Now though, we have to hang some of these three and four times a day (IV) to see results; that's a scary issue to me... one that needs re-examining.

The one issue I hope we all agree on though, is that once you start taking an antibiotic, for the love of G!d - please finish the course. You're setting your system up for a losing battle. Take the rest, then marshal your resources and do research for what seems to suit your health/medical stance best.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by Ceinwen

The one issue I hope we all agree on though, is that once you start taking an antibiotic, for the love of G!d - please finish the course.

I agree- however, if you or your child is having a reaction you find unacceptable- IMMEDIATELY go back to your care provider and explain. See what they say. In some cases/situations it may be okay to end early, in others there may be an alternate antibiotic to finish off with. But don't just stop on your own.

We all need to be more cognizant and judicious in our antibiotic use if we want them to be any use to our grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

-Angela