103 fever in 6.5 month old WWYD? UPDATE post #52 - Page 5

[Mama Dragon]

You are correct - I lumped tylenol in with life saving when I should have added a second category of "making life more comfortable". Cramps, headaches, high fevers, all made better by the (occasional) use of tylenol, and of course other drugs. Asprin as I see it is more of a heart medicine then for pain, though I do have excedrin.

And please, "beginning to wonder where you are"? MDC is not the be all end all of uber-crunch. The exchange of information both natural and less then natural is vital for people to make a choice. When hyland's teething tablets don't work, you bet I would reach for the other stuff to keep my baby out of complete misery (this never actually happened, I didn't even need the tablets). Anyone's use of western medicine doesn't exclude them from being natural minded.

FTR? I've brought out motrin one time for my kids in the last 2 years. I think I medicated a fever 3 or 4 years ago, I don't know how long before that. I don't vax. There are no OTC drugs in the house except pain relievers and they're all for me and my stupid migraines. Oh, I do have antibiotic cream, we got that when my 4 year old decided to throw a weeding tool into his foot. I didn't take him to the ER and get a tetnus vaccine, but I did use a lot of betadine, clean water, ointment and bandaids. None of my kids have seen a doctor in years (except the dentist). We use SA almost religiously for illness, teas for colds and sore throats, etc. I don't use fluoride. I have plenty of MDC worthy things that I am against, but this whole "never medicate for fever" - or whatever....not good to pass around.

[veganone]

Originally Posted by babygrace

it would be more accurate to quote the poster who made those comments regarding fever, not me. i, too, agree that it is misleading and unclear.

OP, to you.

Oh right - it was a quote that you quoted...

Alegna - I realize that on questioning you will clarify that the fever itself is not the issue, but the underlying infection may be. But, you usually post "fever is not dangerous" in threads like this, without the qualifier. I just think that's misleading.

ETA - I feel I should state that I am a huge fan of altenative medicine. I have used it and will continue to use it for myself and my DD when I feel it is helpful and appropriate. I have a lot of concerns with some of what is done in Western Medicine. I have been helped by things like acupuncture after a series of MDs were useless. On the flip side, though, I have had MDs provide healing where my DCM utterly failed to. So, I personally use a combination of the two. I think it's silly to only adhere to one or the other when they both have their place.

[PassionateWriter]

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

And please, "beginning to wonder where you are"? MDC is not the be all end all of uber-crunch. The exchange of information both natural and less then natural is vital for people to make a choice. When hyland's teething tablets don't work, you bet I would reach for the other stuff to keep my baby out of complete misery (this never actually happened, I didn't even need the tablets). Anyone's use of western medicine doesn't exclude them from being natural minded.

the comment was in response to your statement that this is all mumbo jumbo. thats not a comment i would expect to see here on MDC.

it is nice to come to MDC and be able to get support from like minded ppl. and whether or not you use tylenol to dose a fever, i simply dont see the need to beat a dead horse..some of us simply don't use it for a fever. comfort, perhaps....but fever no. i have no reason to care whether someone does use it for a 101, or 103 fever...just seems that ppl get upset if someone posts that they don't (which i dont). the implications that those of us who do not are risking our children's lifes is just wrong. no, i dont care what implications are being made...but it woudl be nice to be given the same respect as those who dont use tylenol for fevers give those who do...and statements like "all this mumbo jumbo" certainly dont favor good will to all....just my observations.

there are a lot of ppl who believe homeopathics are mumbo jumbo. im not one. there are a lot of ppl who think chiropractice care and acupuncture are mumbo jumbo. i dont believe either are mumbo jumbo; however, chiro care has worked well for my family; acupuncture never has. doesnt mean i believe it is mumbo jumbo..i just dont believe it works for us.


ftr, ive never used tylenol as a fever reducer..and ive never had a baby or child "in complete misery". ive had kids with high fevers though.

[babygrace]

Originally Posted by mamakay

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/23/he...-bugaboos.html

http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/89/1/89-a

http://blogs.webmd.com/healthy-child...er-phobic.html

none of the links you provided state studies/research to back up their statements. but, the webmd link has the following caveat (in quotes) which is interesting, because it provides a clue that fever itself, depending on the child, can be worrisome and treatment worthy: http://blogs.webmd.com/healthy-child...er-phobic.html

A few caveats

* This discussion does not apply to children who have seizures with fever ("febrile seizures"). They need their fever to be managed more aggressively to try to prevent recurrences.
* Any fever in the first months could indicate a possible significant infection requiring immediate attention.
* Don't get too caught up in the exact temperature. While it is true that higher fevers may signify a more worrisome infection, more important are your child's symptoms, such as respiratory distress, irritability, listlessness, lethargy, poor feeding, fewer interactions with then environment, rash, vomiting, diarrhea, etc. I'm much more worried about a listless child with a temperature of 101, than a smiling playful one with a temp of 103.
* If your baby/child looks sick in any of the ways mentioned above, call your pediatric provider, even if the temperature is not high enough to be called a fever.

[babygrace]

OP, i apologize for the ongoing parallel discussion in a thread you started for a situation which you are undergoing IRL. i hope baby is doing better today.

[Mama Dragon]

I didn't say "this is all mumbo jumbo" though. I said I was "really tired of people leaving their health care in the hands and ideals of mumbo jumbo"...I suppose I should have NOT used that phrase, I forget people can't translate what I say vs what I mean in my head. What I meant by mumbo jumbo is not taking care of medical conditions that really need to be taken care of using outside resourses, but the parent/person in charge thinks the body will just fix itself because that's what bodies do. Our bodies don't always work right. They fail us, they need help. People died of common stuff not so long ago because the tools of western medicine (and better alternative medicine) weren't available. If alternative medicine works to bring a (high) fever down, or make a kid not completely miserable, by all means, please use it. I'm not all up to date on alternative medicine, but I adore chiropractors. I use peppermint oil for migraines. And the other stuff I posted before.

Does that explain what I mean any better?

Oh! I apologize for the snippity "oh please", wasn't so nice of me

Originally Posted by PassionateWriter

the comment was in response to your statement that this is all mumbo jumbo. thats not a comment i would expect to see here on MDC.

it is nice to come to MDC and be able to get support from like minded ppl. and whether or not you use tylenol to dose a fever, i simply dont see the need to beat a dead horse..some of us simply don't use it for a fever. comfort, perhaps....but fever no. i have no reason to care whether someone does use it for a 101, or 103 fever...just seems that ppl get upset if someone posts that they don't (which i dont). the implications that those of us who do not are risking our children's lifes is just wrong. no, i dont care what implications are being made...but it woudl be nice to be given the same respect as those who dont use tylenol for fevers give those who do...and statements like "all this mumbo jumbo" certainly dont favor good will to all....just my observations.

there are a lot of ppl who believe homeopathics are mumbo jumbo. im not one. there are a lot of ppl who think chiropractice care and acupuncture are mumbo jumbo. i dont believe either are mumbo jumbo; however, chiro care has worked well for my family; acupuncture never has. doesnt mean i believe it is mumbo jumbo..i just dont believe it works for us.


ftr, ive never used tylenol as a fever reducer..and ive never had a baby or child "in complete misery". ive had kids with high fevers though.

[mamakah]

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

sages... I had a hard time reading the block of text, please excuse me if I leave something out.

You seem to take what I said very personally. You also seem to think because I am fine with some western medicine, that I know nothing about alternatives?

Nature would do those things without us. Humans have died from nature since man kind came to being. It's not a sentient being that is there to serve us. Nature doesn't grow new because we want it to, it does it because that's just what it does. Nature was here before humans and will continue after we all die out. It's just there. It would be there if we left it alone and all died at 40 years old from infections and diseases (and yes, we would get them, man kind has been getting sick long before any medicines came to being), it would be there to evolve all on it's own and create new diseases without us mutating them, and it'll be there no matter what we do with it.

I don't vaccinate and don't agree with vaccines, but there are many drugs and procedures that prolong our life and give us the life expectancy we're seeing today. Without asprin, tylenol, antibiotics, surgery, etc we would be living much shorter life spans. Not all western medicine is out to make "the man" money....some is, sure, but not all. Shunning all of western medicine is foolhardy.

MRSA is on the rise because of of the overuse of antibiotics. I know MRSA pretty well, my dad lost his foot while under my care because of it. Unless you have real, valid links to back up your claim?

No, nature doesn't try to help us out. I repeat, it's not a sentient being. Scientists try to help us out. Big pharma gets in the way of that to make a buck, but it's us humans that are trying to use nature as a tool.

I didn't take your post personally at all. Sorry if that is how it came across.
I still disagree with you on this.
Mothers create a special milk for their child specifically. That milk is formulated to protect baby and build immunity to diseases/infections that may take their life or weaken them. That is nature made my friend. In that case nature IS helping us along. Do you disagree? Science has tried to copy it, with no success and has caused much more harm than good by doing so. Do you agree?
This thread is about fever which I admit can get scary. All I can do is go with my own experience with fever.
My 11 month old had his first fever a couple weeks ago. In the middle of the night his temp was 103. I was scared and worried, but decided to let it go for a bit because I knew it was fighting something. He had it through out the night and I kept him hydrated. He seemed irritated but not miserable. Finally in the wee hours of the morning, he was starting to act uncomfortable. I decided then to treat the child not the fever and gave him a very small dose of tylenol to attempt to take the edge off.
His fever went away, he slept for a long time and woke up fine! That day my SIL called hysterical because her 2 yr old had been up all night with a 103 fever and they had to give her tylenol and Motrin all night (My son and her daughter had been playing all day together). She calls hysterical again after Dr. appt because her LO was diagnosed with RSV. Long story short, my son NEVER got sick past that fever. I KNOW he was fighting off the virus. I BELIEVE that by letting his fever do its work for as long as he was comfortable, he was able to fight the virus off. I believe that natures design to have fevers fight disease HELPED him along.
I don't think one can say "Nature doesn't help us." You can say nature doesn't "save" us or "protect" us, but I believe that however you want to look at it, we get our help.
I agree with you about big pharma. I also agree that not all modern medicine is bad.
This link mentions MRSA and antibiotics but also brings up the link between prevnar and MRSA.
http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...ld-flu-deaths/

[hummingmom]

Originally Posted by abimommy

Alternatives are for when things are going well, when things get bad do what you need to do to take care of that baby.

While I appreciate the sentiment behind this post (and certainly don't intend to criticize the OP for seeking conventional medical treatment for a baby with pneumonia), I have to disagree strongly with the idea that's implied, i.e., that alternative medicine is somehow a lightweight option that's ineffective or inappropriate for truly serious problems. Having just read through this thread for the first time, I've noticed that "alternatives" have generally been presented in a very limited way. For instance, there have been references to things like Hyland's teething tablets, vitamin C, or just doing nothing and hoping for the best. To me, all of these would fall in the category of "home remedies." They may be helpful in many cases, but they're basically the alternative version of a dab of neosporin, an aspirin tablet, or some other simple and not-always-effective allopathic remedy. If you've tried them, and your child is still getting sicker and sicker, you clearly need to find something more effective, ASAP.

On the other hand, if we compare apples to apples... i.e., diagnosis and treatment by a skilled MD, vs. diagnosis and treatment by a skilled practitioner of an established alternative medical discipline... then the alternative approach is IMO a valid one, whether things are going "well" or "badly." Of course, there are some situations that are beyond the scope of these disciplines; nobody is going to be able to use homeopathy to re-attach a severed leg, or acupuncture to correct a congenital heart defect. But this is due to the type of ailment, not to its severity. For example, those who strongly support the homeopathic approach would rather choose an expert homeopath than an expert MD to treat an infection, even (or perhaps especially) if it were a potentially dangerous one. (Needless to say, it can be hard to find a real expert in any healing profession... which is why we would do well to form relationships with one or more trusted practitioners, before an emergency happens. Even if they can't solve the problem, they'll likely be able to refer us to someone who can.)

It seems as if a strong preference for alternative medical care -- even when our children are actually sick -- is somewhat of a minority view on this thread, and perhaps isn't even considered "respectable" by some people. That comes as a surprise, especially given the forum header:

Health and Healing is a forum for discussion that reaches beyond mainstream health care norms. It embraces the wide variety of natural and alternative healing modalities as well as necessary conventional medical care. To further this aim please use the term "health care practitioner" rather than "doctor" to embrace the reality that there are other professionals out there to consult for health care needs.


Anyway, just to add my 2 cents on the topic of medicating a feverish child: I'll do it on occasion (usually with ibuprofen), if he or she seems really miserable and nothing else is helping. I don't medicate for the fever itself, though I probably would if it stayed at 105 for a significant length of time. In that case, the medication would be my last step before going to the ER -- as it's the first thing they're going to ask about when you get there, anyway. And this does make sense, from a diagnostic perspective. A fever of 105 that's reducible to 101 with medication, is a very different beast from a fever that's still at 105 after medication.

It's also important to note that a fever "breaking" isn't the same thing as a fever going down due to antipyretics. When a fever is lowered artificially, the patient might seem somewhat relieved, but the illness itself is just as strong as ever. As a PP said, Tylenol can certainly make people more comfortable, but it doesn't cure anything.

When a fever breaks on its own, it's a dramatic change: the patient is immediately, noticeably better; and recovery is generally very rapid afterward. It's obvious what's happening, even without a thermometer. I've read about this many times in older books, but have only personally experienced it once, in the small hours of the morning after my son had been treated homeopathically for his croup. It was amazing to see, though also kind of scary. After the remedy, his fever (which had been moderate) started going up and up... and then crossed 105, and then... just as I was wondering if I should give him the Advil, or start packing up to go to the hospital... POOF, it was all over. His breathing went back to normal, his face relaxed and lost its flushed look, and he fell into a deep, restful sleep. Just like the old-time books said. And he hasn't had croup since.

[hummingmom]

BTW, here's a page from what appears to be a very mainstream pediatric practice: Parent Information About Fever. This information is similar to what I've read elsewhere (also on mainstream medical sites), which is how I settled on my personal "comfort zone" of keeping my childrens' fevers from going above 105 for long periods. Not that a temperature of 105 is dangerous in itself, but I prefer to be on the more cautious side of things and keep a bit of a safety margin.

Medicating fevers between 102-104 is considered optional, and the only purpose is to keep the child more comfortable, not to reduce the fever per se. If this is done, the temperature shouldn't be lowered below 100. And it's not recommended that parents give fever reducers for temperatures under 102. (Of course, with a young baby or a very sick-acting child, you might still need to take them in to be examined, even if they only have a low-grade fever.)

It's also interesting to note that their "Myths and Facts" section matches much of what Angela has been saying: fevers produced by the body don't cause brain damage, febrile seizures aren't harmful, etc.

[PassionateWriter]

great post hummingmom. i never have enough time to type out a long thoughtful post. thanks for doing so.

[Mamato3wild ponnie]

My baby is much better this week. I only gave him 2 dose's of antibiotic...i just couldnt give him any more....our chiropractor did another adjustment on him today and mentioned that he did have a ball where his lung function is effected on his back....so he released that...i feel so much better having him see the chiro.
My chiro also mentioned that he doesnt vax his son.....yipeee...i'm so excited to find like minded professional out there.
Great thread by the way...i learned alot about fevers since posting this thread. Thanks mama's.

[Mama Dragon]

Please give him the full course of antibiotics.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075

Take antibiotics exactly as prescribed. Follow your doctor's instructions when taking prescribed medication, including how many times a day and for how long. Never stop treatment a few days early if you start feeling better — a complete course of antibiotics is needed to kill all of the harmful bacteria. A shortened course of antibiotics, on the other hand, often wipes out only the most vulnerable bacteria, while allowing relatively resistant bacteria to survive.

[mamajama]

Originally Posted by Mamato3wild ponnie

My baby is much better this week. I only gave him 2 dose's of antibiotic...i just couldnt give him any more....our chiropractor did another adjustment on him today and mentioned that he did have a ball where his lung function is effected on his back....so he released that...i feel so much better having him see the chiro.
My chiro also mentioned that he doesnt vax his son.....yipeee...i'm so excited to find like minded professional out there.
Great thread by the way...i learned alot about fevers since posting this thread. Thanks mama's.

Please please please give him the full course of antibiotics.

[Amylcd]

Originally Posted by Mama Dragon

Please give him the full course of antibiotics.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075

I agree. Unfotunately, you have probably made things worse by just giving him two doses of antibiotics. I'm actually shocked any chiropractor would suggest just an adjustment for such a serious illness.

[Maeve]

Originally Posted by Amylcd

I agree. Unfotunately, you have probably made things worse by just giving him two doses of antibiotics. I'm actually shocked any chiropractor would suggest just an adjustment for such a serious illness.

Same here.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by mamajama

Please please please give him the full course of antibiotics.

Yes please finish the course of antibiotics - stopping mid-course can be much much more dangerous than avoiding them at all. My hubby just got out of the hospital after being diagnosed this past week with pneumonia - his pulmonologist said that this has been a very bad year for pneumonia. My husband struccled, I can only imagine his suffering in such a small baby.

Please finish the antibiotics or his pneumonia may return resistant to the meds and much more dangerous.

[Jwebbal]

Yes, please finish the full course of antibiotics. Antibiotics are totally called for in a case of pneumonia. This is my concern with the anti-antibiotics sentiment you see so often here. Yes, they are over prescribed, yes we should resist them when they are not called for, but please, there is a time and a place for them. They do save lives as well as someone's health! They are not evil in and of themselves, it's only the over prescribing of them that is.

[pixiekisses]

First, to the OP, this is not your fault. You are doing your best to take care of the child, go with your instincts. Hope your babe feels better soon.
But yes, please stick with the antibiotics, you need to give it all, or it might just make things worse and pneumonia is serious. (I'm also shocked that the chiro would suggest that.)

Originally Posted by alegna

More reliable sources say that the body won't let the fever go too high short of poisoning situations.

-Angela

That is not true. One of our kids have fevers up to 106/107 with no reason known to man.

Originally Posted by alegna

What I meant is that the febrile seizures themselves are not damaging to the child.

-Angela

Again, not true.
Our kid (same one) has had lots of febrile seizures which have caused her to stop breathing, and not starting again on her own, even caused her heart to stop. She would have died from the febrile seizures w/o us doing CPR, giving o2, cooling her down, and calling an ambulance.
Also, our same kid has had febrile seizures that just didn't end, so she needed medication to stop it or she would have gone to status epilepticus, that is extremely dangerous and can cause both brain damage and death very easily. She even has gone to status from it.

Originally Posted by alegna

Sure. I just maintain that there's no medical need to

-Angela

Again, not true, for the reasons stated above.

Originally Posted by alegna

The problem/ danger is NOT the fever itself.

-Angela

And again, not true, see above.

Originally Posted by LBMarie9

just a ?--what are the dangers in not giving a nebulizer? I mean --if my DD is congested =but obviously breathing enough (if she seemed to be working too hard I would take her right in)---but those treatments are sad crap- I gave them to my son- made him shaky and feel crappy.

is there some sort of damage that being weezing puts my child at risk for that I'm not thinking of--if i try my best to open up her lungs (bundled up in the night air) -? or is the only risk--that they stop breathing and/or have to work VERY hard to not get enough air.

(could I be causing my DD brain damage by letting her be congested and weezy a bit for a week?)

I'm just assuming not everybody has a pulseox at home to check the kids stats, but the oxygen level in the blood can get to low. If it's under 90% the kid should get additional o2 and treatment to make him/her breathe properly and get the o2 levels up. Low o2 levels over time can cause brain damage. So, it can be dangerous, but you would have to check with a pulseox (they can do that in a hospital/at the doctors when the kid is having problems breathing/weezing/working hard to get air). You might not see it, becuase you can have too low sats w/o turning blue.

[Bri'sgirl]

Originally Posted by Mamato3wild ponnie

UPDATE....originally took baby in on monday the 6th for high fever and wheezing and coughing....have been doing nebulizer treatments a few times a day...baby's fever broke wednesday night...he woke up sweaty. Still bad cough...he would start coughing and then it would turn into him crying because the coughing hurt...so it would be a vicious cycle of coughing and crying...we havent gotten much sleep at all this week. Today-thursday....baby's eyes are sunken in....he's lost half a pound...not smiling and active...not nursing well.
Baby overall was worse today than on monday....i took him back to our GP...who practices integrative medicine and holistic practices....he listened to the baby's lungs and said that his right lung sounds worse than the left and he was a bit concerned...as the baby did not seem to be any better.
We did a chest x-ray and the right lung showed pneumonia....i kept asking about viral vs bacterial...and he mentioned we could do a blood test to figure out which one....he also mentioned that in a baby this young ...he feels that we should treat right away...rather than wait and see...we've waited 4 days and it's gotten worse...i was almost in tears....as i had originally never wanted to take my baby to any doctors...i didnt want to give my baby medicine....i'm asking my self....what did i do wrong...did i not take care of my baby the way i should have...i feel so guilty right now....But i feel that he has to have the antibiotics and steriod....i am giving him a probiotic...plus i took him to our chiro who did did accupuncture today too.
I felt better after seeing our chiro....however i still feel so bad as a mommy that my baby is so sick.
I need some mama support yall.

You are NOT a bad mommy! My youngest DS has been so sick, he's spent 4 separate nights in the hospital...sickness happens.

Have you given another update? I may have missed it...but how is your baby doing? I've been thinking about you.

[iamleabee]

Originally Posted by Jwebbal

Yes, please finish the full course of antibiotics. Antibiotics are totally called for in a case of pneumonia. This is my concern with the anti-antibiotics sentiment you see so often here. Yes, they are over prescribed, yes we should resist them when they are not called for, but please, there is a time and a place for them. They do save lives as well as someone's health! They are not evil in and of themselves, it's only the over prescribing of them that is.

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