Celebrating Passover

[Ron_Low]

Does anybody else have a problem with Obama celebrating Passover at the Whitehouse?

I can see how Jews see it as joyful that God can affect people's lives by using His power. But Egyptians would have to see it as Hebrews celebrating the murder of innocent Egyptian children to further the political aims of the Hebrews. And Obama is on board with that?

Thinking it's OK for innocents to die for a higher aim; if that's not terrorism I don't know what is.

[spero]

Originally Posted by Ron_Low

But Egyptians would have to see it as Hebrews celebrating the murder of innocent Egyptian children to further the political aims of the Hebrews. And Obama is on board with that?

Thinking it's OK for innocents to die for a higher aim; if that's not terrorism I don't know what is.

Huh? Did he say something to that effect?

With deference to the Jewish population here that may disagree, I am OK with Christians celebrating Passover, b/c technically it's a part of our own historical tradition.

[zinemama]

I think it's pretty well known that the story of the exodus from Egypt has always had special relevance for African Americans. As a Jew, I think it's great that Obama is hosting a seder. Why not?

As for what Egyptians theoretically (has the OP spoken with any about their views??) would or would not think about Obama (or any of the millions of Jews) hosting a Seder, I don't see how that's relevent to anything.

I'm sure that when Ramadan comes along, we'll see Obama hosting a break-fast meal. And that the public will learn more than it really needs to know about Christmas in the White House, as well.

[Bluegoat]

I don't really see that it would be a problem from a terrorism point of view, it was, um, a long time ago.

I suppose public officials often come to religious events in an official capacity rather than a personal one. Is this supposed to be an official event?

[doubledutch]

reading the op raised so many questions for me!

who would have been the murderer in this story?

do egyptians believe the story to be true? (if not, why would they care?)

can the desire for freedom from slavery really be considered a political aim?

does a seder really involve celebrating death? or is that grossly twisting things around?

"thinking it's OK for innocents to die for a higher aim" is not terrorism. terrorism is using violence (or threat of violence) to persuade those in power to comply with demands to prevent further violence. now, a leader may use a "higher aim" as a rallying cry to persuade his followers to commit acts of terror, an end-justifies-the-means way of seeing things, but that doesn't mean that belief itself can be called terrorism.

[chfriend]

I've never read the Exodus story that way. Seems pretty clear the point of it is that if God tells you to do something and sends along a few plagues to make his point,

You might want to let His people go.

[spero]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I've never read the Exodus story that way. Seems pretty clear the point of it is that if God tells you to do something and sends along a few plagues to make his point,

You might want to let His people go.

: :

[PaulaJoAnne]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I've never read the Exodus story that way. Seems pretty clear the point of it is that if God tells you to do something and sends along a few plagues to make his point,

You might want to let His people go.

YES!!!!!!
That is exactly what it is saying!

[Magelet]

I think its wonderful. I really love it when christians celebrate passover, and shabbat, and otherwise remember that jesus was jewish. Passover isn't a celebration of death, it is a celebration of freedom. At our seders, we spill our wine onto our plates as we recite the plagues, for our sadness that our fellow children of G-d, the egyptians, suffered. Also, when one was once enslaved, and now is free, there is nothing wrong with celebrating. (and do egyptians today really identify that much with the egyptians then? I don't know, but I don't think they do that much.)

[Liquesce]

Uh, hi, extensive experience with Egyptian people, living in Egypt, etc, etc, etc here. as far as polling goes, Egyptians are pretty much 90% Muslim, 10% Christian. Both religions believe the Exodus story. While the death of the firstborn isn't really a part of the account insofar as I recall, read what the Qur'an has to say about Moses, and about the Pharoah at the time ... you will not find a single ordinary Egyptian person who feels some sort of regional heritage sympathy for the Pharoah, his beliefs, his choices, or his followers. I understand the good intentions of this line of thought, but, yeah ... way off base.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I've never read the Exodus story that way. Seems pretty clear the point of it is that if God tells you to do something and sends along a few plagues to make his point,

You might want to let His people go.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

Uh, hi, extensive experience with Egyptian people, living in Egypt, etc, etc, etc here. as far as polling goes, Egyptians are pretty much 90% Muslim, 10% Christian. Both religions believe the Exodus story. While the death of the firstborn isn't really a part of the account insofar as I recall, read what the Qur'an has to say about Moses, and about the Pharoah at the time ... you will not find a single ordinary Egyptian person who feels some sort of regional heritage sympathy for the Pharoah, his beliefs, his choices, or his followers. I understand the good intentions of this line of thought, but, yeah ... way off base.

very thought provoking! I had never thought it through this way.... how the egyptians now feel about "THE pharaoh" of the story.

I guess that's like me as a Christian having no sympathy for the "crusades". it's not as if any christian (ok like 99.999% of christians) would ever be in agreement with the choices of that group of peoples.

ok slightly different... but you get my point I hope!

[rebirth]

I just find the idea of passover (and specificially a sadar) being in support of terrorism beyond rediculous. It is a celebration of freedom, and of the might of Hashem. It's also something of a warning I suppose to those who persecute the jews... but I can't see how any egyption of today would feel threatened.

[threekids]

if that's not terrorism I don't know what is.

Here's a little terrorism 101:
-hijacking passenger planes and crashing them into office buildings. That's terrorism.
-throwing a wheelchair bound old man overboard a cruise ship, whilst demanding the release of murderers. That's terrorism.
-firing rockets into civilian populations, then drawing fire to your own women and children by using them as human shields. That's terrorism.
-A government that either actively provides money and support to groups that do all of the above, or passively allows training to take place on its soil without consequence. That's terrorism.

If you're concerned about our president's policy on terrorism, you should watch his response to those things, not whether he eats a bit of Matza on Passover night.

[Watershippy]

Originally Posted by spero

... I am OK with Christians celebrating Passover, b/c technically it's a part of our own historical tradition.

I don't know if this is what you meant by celebrating Passover, but I want to point out that Christians who hold Seders (as opposed to remembering passover in a Christian fashion) cause me serious discomfort. I have a problem with Christians celebrating Seders because they think that is what Jesus was doing at the Last Supper. He wasn't. The Seder came out the rabbinical tradition that was only barely developing when Jesus was around, and no one was doing Seders until later. The passover story (and doing something to remember the passover story) IS a part of both Christian and Jewish history, but a Christian who looks at the modern Seder and tries to copy it is either misinformed or intentionally co-opting. There has been a whole lot of development in Judiasm since Jesus' time, and the Seder is one of those things.

That said, I don't mind the Pres. having a White House Seder. He is a national leader, and I like that he is acknowleding that not all Americans are Christian. I hope the White House does something for a major Muslim holiday as well. I also loved in his inaguaral speech when he was listing off a bunch of the religions represented in the US, that he also mentioned Atheists and Agnotistics, as they often go unacknowledged.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by Watershippy

That said, I don't mind the Pres. having a White House Seder. He is a national leader, and I like that he is acknowleding that not all Americans are Christian. I hope the White House does something for a major Muslim holiday as well.

Since Clinton it always has.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I've never read the Exodus story that way. Seems pretty clear the point of it is that if God tells you to do something and sends along a few plagues to make his point,

You might want to let His people go.

Actually, this is not the point of the Exodus story. The point was to demonstrate the power of God. The Egyptians did not have the option of letting the Hebrews go and thereby avoiding the plague on the firstborn. See Exodus 11:9-10

The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

Note that the LORD hardens Paharaoh's heart, "so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt".

However, that aside, I have no problem whatsoever with Obama celebrating Passoever and I agree that the idea that Passover celebrates terrorism is completely ridiculous.

[Nickarolaberry]

Originally Posted by Watershippy

I don't know if this is what you meant by celebrating Passover, but I want to point out that Christians who hold Seders (as opposed to remembering passover in a Christian fashion) cause me serious discomfort. I have a problem with Christians celebrating Seders because they think that is what Jesus was doing at the Last Supper. He wasn't. The Seder came out the rabbinical tradition that was only barely developing when Jesus was around, and no one was doing Seders until later. The passover story (and doing something to remember the passover story) IS a part of both Christian and Jewish history, but a Christian who looks at the modern Seder and tries to copy it is either misinformed or intentionally co-opting. There has been a whole lot of development in Judiasm since Jesus' time, and the Seder is one of those things.

.

I can't comment on Jesus' last supper, but the rest of your comment is quite inaccurate.

The seder has been celebrated since well before the time of Jesus, and in fact Mishnaic and Talmudic sources from that era discuss the history of the seder service.

The seder meal, and the service commemorating "Yetzias Mitzrayim" (Exodus from Egypt) goes back well before even the time of the First Temple. During the times of the Temple(s), it was *also* celebrated with a sacrifice (korban Pesach) and it was one of the three pilgrimmage holidays (Pesach, Shavuos, Sukkos) on which Jews made the journey to Jerusalem.

[Smokering]

Er... the Hebrews didn't kill the Egyptian children.

[philomom]

I'm agnostic. I sometimes celebrate Passover with my Jewish in-laws. You have to feel a little in awe of a ritual feast that has remained virtually unchanged for 3, 000 years or so. Well, the food may have changed some... the words.. not much at all.


I'm thrilled we have Obama and his family to remind us that not all Americans are new testament bible thumpers.