Celebrating Passover - Page 3

[Kidzaplenty]

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[Ron_Low]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

I was just thinking about that the other day. So, does this imply that the Pharoh was *not* a firstborn son?

I think it does, unless the whole firstborn son thing only applies if there is a living parent to grieve the loss.

I don't get how people can utterly disregard the killing of completely, undeniably, indisputably, 100% INNOCENT children. OR livestock for that matter.

Why couldn't this all-powerful plague-raining deity just smite the actual oppressors? Killing the innocent instead of bothering to tangle with the guilty is what? Something other than terrorism?

[Smokering]

This is a Christian perspective which may or may not jive with the Jewish one, but nevertheless:

Ron, you're not engaging with the Biblical concepts of sovereignty or innocence. Calling God a "terrorist" is absurd - He is in total control of the universe, so He makes the rules. He can't, by definition, do anything "illegal" or against the "articles of war" - He decides what is just, not you. Furthermore the Christian view is that children are not born innocent but with the stain of inherited sin - so while the firstborn may have been innocent of the specific crime of enslaving the Hebrews, they weren't "100% innocent" in the sense of being perfect, which in the Christian worldview is the only criterion for justifiably escaping death. Besides, if God hadn't caused them to die during the Plague He would have caused them to die at some other time in some other way - how is that any better or worse? Same with the livestock. It seems what you're really grappling with here is the problem of pain/problem of evil, which is a fascinating topic but rather broader in scope than simply the Passover.

[Ron_Low]

Originally Posted by Smokering

if God hadn't caused them to die during the Plague He would have caused them to die at some other time in some other way - how is that any better or worse?

I guess this is underlining my point. I can't picture a world at peace as long as there are all these conflicting world-views that each include the idea that "my god can kill whomever he/she likes." If someone has enough trust in this god's supposed representatives on earth, any heinous thing can be turned into god's will.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Ron_Low

I guess this is underlining my point. I can't picture a world at peace as long as there are all these conflicting world-views that each include the idea that "my god can kill whomever he/she likes." If someone has enough trust in this god's supposed representatives on earth, any heinous thing can be turned into god's will.

I'm not sure that was the point. Everybody dies, whether or not you are religious, it's part of being alive and on the Earth. In that sense those who dies in the plague were not any differently off than if they had dies at some other time.

Your assumption is that it is better to live and grow up and die of old age.

While that certainly seems better than being tortured or something else nasty, But on the other hand, are we sure that it is better to live than die in a theistic universe? I don't think we can assume that. Strictly speaking, from a Christian viewpoint (and I'm not sure if Jews would put it this way, though they might) we don't die.

But if we are talking about a universe with a creator God, it seems you are really complaining that death exists at all. Yet I never hear anyone say that deathis unfair if they don't believe in God, they just see it as a fact. I'm not sure why it becomes unfair when we talk about being created by a God?

None of this would apply though, to people going out and killing others. God doing it himself is not the same thing at all. There are places where God directly tells people to do this, in person so to speak, but that seems to be historically rather rare.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Ron_Low

I think it does, unless the whole firstborn son thing only applies if there is a living parent to grieve the loss.

I don't get how people can utterly disregard the killing of completely, undeniably, indisputably, 100% INNOCENT children. OR livestock for that matter.

Why couldn't this all-powerful plague-raining deity just smite the actual oppressors? Killing the innocent instead of bothering to tangle with the guilty is what? Something other than terrorism?

Ok, I'm beginning to think that we're not hearing what's really going on.

No Passover celebration "utterly disregards the killing of completely, undeniably," yadda yadda. We've told you that an integral part of the seder is listing the plagues and spilling wine (our symbol of joy) for the lives that were lost and the sorrow caused to the Egyptians and their families in each plague. That's how we "utterly disregard" it.

The answers to your last questions can't be answered by Jews (or anyone for that matter). You have problems with that? Ask G-d. I can give you my opinion, though honestly - it troubles me, too. I don't like the idea that G-d hardened Pharaoh's heart and made the plagues necessary. The fact remains, he didn't. I don't know why.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Ron_Low

I can't picture a world at peace as long as there are all these conflicting world-views

........... and that's why only G-d will be able to make that peace. It would take a miracle of divine proportions to do it.

that each include the idea that "my god can kill whomever he/she likes."

I don't think that "my god" can kill whomever he likes. I believe that the one G-d brought us all into the world and can take us back. I don't believe that murder is something G-d is capable of. People murder. G-d does not.

If someone has enough trust in this god's supposed representatives on earth, any heinous thing can be turned into god's will.

... who is talking about representatives on earth? G-d was the one who caused the plagues, not Moses.