Differences in Beliefs

[springmama]

I could really use some perspective on this one. I am getting back into church and last night dh voiced his absolute opposition to it. He said that it is the same as his putting faith into Santa Clause. I was a believer in God when we were married and he agreed that I would be taking the kids (when we had them) to Church. Well then I lost my faith and went about 6years before coming back to it.

I understand that this is all difficult to him but he has basically told me to leave my faith at the door. He doesn't want to hear ANYTHING about my church experience (even the non religious aspects) and I am forbidden to ever take the kids there. He said that if I teach the kids about God he will undermine it immediately because I would be indoctrinating them with lies.

He was raised agnostic but I don't get why we each can't teach the kids what we believe or some compromise. I am sad that this important part of my life is going to have to be kept completely out of my family life. I know that he won't want Christian things in the home or to see me with a cross necklace on. I have been hiding my Christian reading material from him and watching what I'm talking about on the phone with my Christian friends.

Does anyone have any advice about what I can do to keep this decision a happy one and continue to grow and embrace my faith and Church? Thanks!

[Smokering]

Well, being a nasty combative presuppositionalist, I'd challenge him. If he thinks belief in God is the same as belief in Santa Claus he's either woefully ignorant of the philosophical arguments in favour of theism, or he's figured out a way to refute them all - in which case I'd like to hear his arguments! If you want actual unity on this, it comes down to a matter of truth and who's right or wrong; if you want to avoid the conflict that such arguments would necessarily involve, I'm afraid the best you can do is fake respect for each other's beliefs. As he doesn't seem to be a pluralist, it will be fake; but a lot of couples seem to do very well under this model, so there's no reason he can't learn to be at least outwardly respectful. Are you and he willing to agree to some ground rules? Given that he agreed to let you raise the children within Christianity when you got married, I don't see he has much of a leg to stand on now.

I'm sorry, it's a sucky situation to be in. Perhaps you could point out to him that being agnostic and bringing up your children to be agnostic is as much a "belief system" as bringing them up to be Christian - it's not the neutral fallback position he may believe (or want you to believe). So if he's allowed to expose them to his agnostic belief system, it seems unfair that you shouldn't be allowed to expose them to your theistic one.

[doubledutch]

that sounds really hard! i actually understand both positions, because (a) faith is very important to me and (b) i don't want someone indoctrinating my kids with things i do not believe in. i'm totally cool with them learning about all kinds of different beliefs and learning to respect others, exploring what the world has to offer because eventually it's up to them. that is way, way different from having a close relative, let alone a parent, teaching a set of beliefs that are way different from mine, to the point of incompatability. otoh, to have to *hide* it?! how can you live like that? it sounds so painful. the threat of "undermining" anything you tell the kids about religion is pointless since they're already being raised that way . . .

maybe the two of you can find a safe, neutral place to talk and be honest about what you each need, what you're afraid of, and what kind of compromise you can reach because it's like you're living two separate lives right now and that can't work long-term. not that two people with very different beliefs can't have a successful marriage - they obviously can! but there has to be mutual respect, agreed-upon boundaries and freedom within those boundaries.

[christianmomof3]

I would say that the most important thing for you to do right now is to pray for your dh and for the situation. It might be good for your church to pray for him too, but I am not sure how much detail you should go into with them just for his sake.

[caitlinlea]

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. No one should have to hide what they believe in. I'm an atheist, but I find myself identifying more with you than your DH on this issue.

I read a wonderful essay recently titled Parenting in a Secular/Religious Marriage by Pete Wernick. The essay can be found in the book Parenting Beyond Belief, which might be a great book to introduce your husband to. Even though the essays it contains are written by atheists, agnostics and nonthiests, a common thread in the writing is that we live in a predominantly religious society; most people are religious to varying degrees and believe in a god or higher power. It is important for our children to be religiously literate. Choosing not to be part of a religious community doesn't shield a parent from religious questions. Kids will have questions, and it is important to learn tolerance early on and respect for people who believe differently than they do. You and your DH are in a unique position to provide this - if you can come to some agreements you are actually exemplifying tolerance in a very positive way.

If your husband drills it into your children's heads that "there is no God, religion is bunk" he isn't giving them much of a chance to come to their own conclusions. He can say "I believe this........but there are other people who believe differently." And you can say the same, and by phrasing your beliefs that way your children won't be indoctrinated either way, they'll be given the opportunity to make their own decisions as they grow older.

I'll admit, as an atheist, I struggle with the idea of exposing to my son to religion but I think it is important that I do because it is a huge aspect of our history, and of humanity. I arrived at atheism after years and years, my entire lifetime, of questioning, wondering, talking to people, reading, attending a variety of churches, etc. My belief (or lack thereof I suppose) is a positive thing for me. My journey has been amazing because I had the freedom to question and make my own conclusions. I would never want to deny my son that same opportunity, even if he arrives in a different place than I did.

I hope some of that helps - I think your situation is difficult but not impossible. If you are both willing to listen to each other (and it sounds like you are at least) then you can come through this stronger.

Best wishes!
Caitlin

[Bluegoat]

I always find people like your husband odd. It is clearly his right to think what he sees as the truth, but does he have no knowledge of history? Many intelligent people, the greatest minds of humankind, have been theists of some sort.

A quick list might include:Leonardo Da Vinci, Francis Bacon, Tolkien, Isaak Newton, Bach, T.S. Eliot, Planck, Descartes, John Stuart Mill, Voltaire, Rousseau, just to name a few. So I don't think it is really fair to assume that only unthinking people believe in God, even without getting into theological arguments.

i wonder if your husband has more specific worries? Is he concerned about the church in particular that you are attending? What has made him change his mind about letting the kids go to church? It sounds like he is speking very emotionally about this.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Smokering

If he thinks belief in God is the same as belief in Santa Claus he's either woefully ignorant of the philosophical arguments in favour of theism, or he's figured out a way to refute them all - in which case I'd like to hear his arguments!

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

i wonder if your husband has more specific worries? Is he concerned about the church in particular that you are attending? What has made him change his mind about letting the kids go to church? It sounds like he is speking very emotionally about this.

These two things jumped out at me.

Yes, the OP is attending a Christian church, but that doesn't mean that there are only two choices in the world....Christianity or atheism. Not all theism = Christianity. Not all lack of Christianity = atheism. There are hundreds of other choices.

It's entirely possible that the OP's husband doesn't have a problem with teaching the children about spiritual beliefs, but has a big problem with focusing on one specific belief system that he feels is completely ludicrous, and the teaching of it as truth.

Springmama, you say you lost your faith along the way and then found it. Could it be that your husband has become stronger in his nonbelief along the way? Certainly, neither of you are exactly the same as you were when you married.....people grow and change.

I'm afraid I don't have any advice; there are just some things people feel very strongly about. There are lots of mamas here who have told their DH's "over my dead body" in regards to circ (myself, included). I would feel similarly if my spouse suddenly wanted to start indoctrinating my kids with religion. Presenting a religion as part of the world we live in is one thing; presenting it as fact is another.

[zoebird]

i think that i do a few things:

1. first, i would learn to practice quietly.

a dear friend of mine is incredably peaceful about her practice. her religion (buddhism) is different from her family (catholic, old school). while her parents are very sweet, loving and gentle people, they were very upset about her practicing buddhism.

she went to her teacher, and he spoke to all of us about how we should not practice if it is causing another suffering, but that if it causes us suffering to not practice, then we must learn to practice "quietly" so that no one notices.

he gave examples, and so this is what she did.

she went onto craig's list and found a beautiful, though small, wooden cabinet with a lock. inside there were shelves and drawers. she placed her buddha statue and altar materials on one shelf, and her books on another. in the drawers, she put things like her mala and other elements that were part of her practice.

she then locked the cabinet. every evening her family would pray before meals and then after the meal they would do the rosary. she would sit with them while they did this, honoring their religion. she would then excuse herself and go to her room. she would lock her door (which is customary in hr house when you want privacy), and she would open her cabinet.

her parents honestly believed that she had given up buddhism, even though she continued to come to sessin each week and she meditated every night after the rosary. she just never, ever mentioned buddhism or the sessin or meditation or any of it to her family. she knew that it caused them too much suffering, and strife between them.

another friend of mine applied this to her experience of christianity. she was chastized by some church goers for 'putting her light under a bushel basket'--but her 'brand' of christianity was not accepted by her family (husband and extended). and so she started practicing her faith in the same way as my friend. she got her cabinet, and she practiced in quiet, in that inner room that Jesus speaks of is how she saw it.

2. i would forgo any process that would inhibit my relationship with my children. that is, your children need to know you and therefore also know your faith because it is a part of you. but you don't have to teach it as an absolute--and i don't think that is your intent by your description. you just want to share what you believe.

i think that it is important for children to know this aspect of people. faith is a beautiful thing.

my mother and i are of two different religions. i'm buddhist, my mother is catholic. she honestly believes that "anyone who turns their back on christ goes to hell." it's very strange, to me, that she believes this. it is incongruous with my vision of who she is as a person, who i have always known or thought her to be. nevertheless, she has stated this to me more than one time.

when hawk was born, she was concerned about us raising him non-christian. she was also concerned that we would not allow them to 'share their faith' with him. to me, this would be sad because to know his grandmother is to also know her faith.

it doesn't mean that he needs to go to catholic school and church and all of that. he just needs to know what she thinks and believes.

but i did put a few parameters on it. i told her that i do not mind if she shares her faith--the basic tenants, what she likes about it, etc. and, when he's grown, if she wants to pop the 'hell' thing on him (i figure when he's 20 or so would be fine, and i told her this), then that would be ok too.

what we will not tolerate is the idea that he should be christian or that we should be christian--and that we are wrong or bad for not being this thing.

(btw, i am upset at my mother for bringing up her stupid "stuff" at his baby blessing. she spoke up as "I just have to say that WE are followers of CHRIST and i want that mentioned at his blessing" when it came her time to speak. whey people have to bring their crap up. . .that was her broadcasting "i'm upset that you're not christian" not really offering anything to the blessing itself. . . but that's an aside.

So, i guess what i'm saying is that i think you absolutely should share your faith with your children, but in a casual way as if you would share what you did with your day or how you feel about the cosmos, rather than in a systematic way, particularly if that systematic way upsets your husband.

now, if your child wants a more systematic way, then by all means, follow the child's lead.

3. if your husband cannot deal with 1 and 2, THEN i would confront him about his stuff.

as i have said to those stubborn family members (like my mother)--you don't have to like it, you don't have to approve. we're not asking for your premission, this is what we are doing.

they usually back off. you are a grown woman and a mother to your children. you can decide for yoruself what to believe in and how to practice your spirituality. you don't require his permission or approval to do it, nor do you require these things to share who you are (as a person of faith) with your own children.

but you do require mutual respect, and if he'll address and work through his fears with you, i'm sure you'll come to a perfect solution.

[chaoticzenmom]

I'm also an athiest. I would be furious if my husband decided to become Christian and take my children to a christian church. I do like the Unitarian Universalist church and like that my children learn about the commonalities of different religions and some religious-like things, but they don't get indoctrinated into the "God" thing. I don't think that God is anymore real than Zues...or Santa Claus, but I want my children to think for themselves and if they feel truly called to believe in God, I want them to. With UU, they really learn about different religious and spiritual options and maybe they'll find something that makes sense to them.

Another thing about Christianity that bothers me is the Compliance based on threat of punishment aspect. If the only reason to do the right thing and be kind to each other is the fear of going to hell, then that's pretty sad. I try not to punish my kids or make them comply based on fear, so why would I want a church to do that to me?

So, the point of my thread is that maybe UU is an alternative option that could work for you and your husband.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom

I'm also an athiest. I would be furious if my husband decided to become Christian and take my children to a christian church. I do like the Unitarian Universalist church and like that my children learn about the commonalities of different religions and some religious-like things, but they don't get indoctrinated into the "God" thing. I don't think that God is anymore real than Zues...or Santa Claus, but I want my children to think for themselves and if they feel truly called to believe in God, I want them to. With UU, they really learn about different religious and spiritual options and maybe they'll find something that makes sense to them.

Another thing about Christianity that bothers me is the Compliance based on threat of punishment aspect. If the only reason to do the right thing and be kind to each other is the fear of going to hell, then that's pretty sad. I try not to punish my kids or make them comply based on fear, so why would I want a church to do that to me?

So, the point of my thread is that maybe UU is an alternative option that could work for you and your husband.

Since the UU actually contradicts what Christianity, (and most other religions, and atheism) says, that might not really solve the problem. There is a tendency for people to think that UU is compatible with all beliefs, but it just isn't.

But I would like to know why the husband changed his mind about this, since he had agreed the kids could go to church before the marriage. It seems a bit rotten to say this and then back out after the kids are born - he at the least owes her an explanation.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Since the UU actually contradicts what Christianity, (and most other religions, and atheism) says, that might not really solve the problem. There is a tendency for people to think that UU is compatible with all beliefs, but it just isn't.

But I would like to know why the husband changed his mind about this, since he had agreed the kids could go to church before the marriage. It seems a bit rotten to say this and then back out after the kids are born - he at the least owes her an explanation.

Actually there are Christian UUs, and UUs have their roots in Christianity. The seven principles of UU do not preclude Christians from our congregations or our fellowship. Granted theologically (and politically/socially liberal) Christians are likely to feel more at home in most UU congregations but I don't think you can dismiss that suggestion outright, and I think it may be a good one for this family who could learn together to respect various religious viewpoints and see them exist in harmony.

As to the OP I don't think it is a case of the just husband owing an explanation. They have clearly both changed in many ways since their wedding and I think we can all acknowledge that having children can profoundly change how we see our world. I think that both parties have a lot of work to do to find common ground and understanding as this will no doubt be a challenging issue. I agree with the PP that as they move through this process sensitivity and compassion, rather than judgement and dimissiveness will better serve them and their children.

OP, I might suggest some kind of couples counselling to help you work through this. There are also books like Parenting Beyond Belief, and Raising Free Thinkers which might help you and your husband see how you can find some common ground between Christian indoctrination and religious or spiritual education.

Good luck!
Karen

[Smokering]

Yes, the OP is attending a Christian church, but that doesn't mean that there are only two choices in the world....Christianity or atheism. Not all theism = Christianity. Not all lack of Christianity = atheism. There are hundreds of other choices.

It's entirely possible that the OP's husband doesn't have a problem with teaching the children about spiritual beliefs, but has a big problem with focusing on one specific belief system that he feels is completely ludicrous, and the teaching of it as truth.

Well, it's possible, but it sounded from the OP's post that he had a problem with Christianity because of his agnosticism, not because he preferred Buddhism or open theism or whatever. If that's the case then the dilemma is between two choices, not hundreds.

Another thing about Christianity that bothers me is the Compliance based on threat of punishment aspect. If the only reason to do the right thing and be kind to each other is the fear of going to hell, then that's pretty sad.

It is sad, but it's not a Christian teaching; there are many reasons to do the right thing in Christianity.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Well, it's possible, but it sounded from the OP's post that he had a problem with Christianity because of his agnosticism, not because he preferred Buddhism or open theism or whatever. If that's the case then the dilemma is between two choices, not hundreds.

I guess my reply was a response to the post that contained the following....

If he thinks belief in God is the same as belief in Santa Claus he's either woefully ignorant of the philosophical arguments in favour of theism, or he's figured out a way to refute them all - in which case I'd like to hear his arguments!

....in which "theism" seems to be defined as belief in the Christian God.

As an atheist, I can accept and understand a belief in theism. I can wrap my brain around the idea that someone would believe in a Creator. I cannot understand how people believe in all the other doctrine that goes along with many theistic beliefs.

If someone beliefs in a naturalistic sort of deity, that can make sense to me, although I don't believe in it. Personally, gods such as Yahweh and Allah are no more real to me than Thor or Isis. I feel that man created these gods in his own image, and that they were created out of superstition, ignorance and fear. Imagine some ancient people who heard thunder or experienced a tsunami and had no knowledge of the scientific bases behind them. It's no wonder they attributed those things to some omnipotent other race of beings.

So, I suppose what I was trying to say is that her DH doesn't necessarily oppose theism (which is how you seemed to take it), but might merely oppose religious doctrine/dogma and the teaching of it as truth to his children.

It is sad, but it's not a Christian teaching; there are many reasons to do the right thing in Christianity.

And they're all based on the desire to be rewarded in the afterlife, or at least to escape punishment.

[MissinNYC]

Another thing about Christianity that bothers me is the Compliance based on threat of punishment aspect. If the only reason to do the right thing and be kind to each other is the fear of going to hell, then that's pretty sad. I try not to punish my kids or make them comply based on fear, so why would I want a church to do that to me?

This is a gross misunderstanding of Christianity. We do not obey because we are frightened of punishment- we aren't all miserable and suffering and forced to obey an angry God because we are scared of Hell. At most times, we obey God because it glorifies Him and we love Him. And most of us believe that God's law is made for our benefit; it's not an arbitrary list of rules for God's amusment- He made them to give us the most joyful and harmonious life possible. Honestly, it may be true for some people that Hell figures largely into their beliefs, but I don't think about it much. Probably because I believe that I am saved and I am not going to Hell, and my ultimate destination is not determined by my day-to-day actions. Not that my works aren't important and I can kill people all day, but that grace is covering my sins and as long as I am repentent and honestly contrite, God forgives me. So Hell isn't something I worry about much (although I do think it exists and non-believers go there).

[doubledutch]

not an expert here, but i'm pretty sure "if you love me, you will obey what i command" (john 14:15) isn't related to punishment or reward but offers a motivation which we all, as parents, strive to inspire in our children. we want our children to listen and follow us out of love, not fear (or bribery, lol). i know that in practice, many christians do use the promise of reward and/or threat of punishment to try to inspire compliance, but i wanted to point out that's not how all christians function.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by 2xy

I guess my reply was a response to the post that contained the following....



....in which "theism" seems to be defined as belief in the Christian God.

As an atheist, I can accept and understand a belief in theism. I can wrap my brain around the idea that someone would believe in a Creator. I cannot understand how people believe in all the other doctrine that goes along with many theistic beliefs.

If someone beliefs in a naturalistic sort of deity, that can make sense to me, although I don't believe in it. Personally, gods such as Yahweh and Allah are no more real to me than Thor or Isis. I feel that man created these gods in his own image, and that they were created out of superstition, ignorance and fear. Imagine some ancient people who heard thunder or experienced a tsunami and had no knowledge of the scientific bases behind them. It's no wonder they attributed those things to some omnipotent other race of beings.

So, I suppose what I was trying to say is that her DH doesn't necessarily oppose theism (which is how you seemed to take it), but might merely oppose religious doctrine/dogma and the teaching of it as truth to his children.

I curious if you have looked at any of the major Christian philosophers on this? Your description doesn't really seem to jive with the actual history of philosophy, either Christian or pre-Christian. And the most basic philosophical arguments for theism in general are essentially the same as those within Christianity, in fact they look the same within all the theistic worldviews, including pantheism. Even the basic ideas about what God is like are pretty similar, so someone who wanted to prove atheism would have to disprove theism, including Plato and Hinduism and Spinoza, not just Christianity.

I suspect we have assumed the OPs husband is an atheist rather than an agnostic, because a real agnostic wouldn't likely claim that God is a lie. But more information about what he meant would be useful - it may be that he objected to the OPs specific characterization of God.

And they're all based on the desire to be rewarded in the afterlife, or at least to escape punishment.

As others have pointed out, that is not Christian doctrine. We are supposed to obey God 1) because being God, he is right about things 2) because we love him 3) because it is our duty. In fact, Christianity would say that if there was no punishment or reward, we should still obey for those reasons.

The Roman Catholics, who like to be very specific and write everything down, do say that obeying out of fear will get you to heaven, but it is clear that it isn't a good situation. It is supposed to be "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

[springmama]

Well the issue came up again today. I really appreciate all of your feedback, but I kind of feel that we got off the topic and into a debate about religious beliefs.

I guess what I am really looking for is more of an answer as to who should get their way. I would like to take the kids - he says no way no how are they to go. I totally respect his beliefs. He is continuing with what he was told growing up, as am I. It is getting difficult because he is really not happy about this change in my life. I even offered that the kids and I can go to church on Sundays and stay after for the social hour and he could use that time for himself; since he never gets any time for himself. He seemed almost tempted but then held firm.

I told him that I will tell the kids that this is a certain set of beliefs that some people believe and that he can share with the kids his beliefs. The only problem that I see with that is he is at this time only able to refute my beliefs because he doesn't really hold any particular set of beliefs.

So the bottom line is who is right and what kind of a compromise can we work out? Do I completely let it go or fight for the promise he made when we got married 6 years ago (which he says was nullified because I went agnostic for a few years) ? I would love to discuss this w/out a debate about religion amongst ourselves, PLEASE. THANK YOU!!!!!

[Bluegoat]

Who is right - well, that is a question that none of us can answer with certainty.

THe idea that his promise was nullified for the reasons he said is silly. But, it looks like you will have to renegotiate this in any case, so it isn't perhaps useful to worry about. But, I would be interested in knowing why he felt he could make that promise at that time?

I don't think it is true that if he were to spend time telling the kids about what he believes, it would mean only negating religious belief. Religion is about questions like - what are the foundations of being? Why is there something as opposed to nothing? What are good and evil? How do we know what the right thing to do is? Those are things he must have thoughts of his own on.

Ultimatly, it is a matter of acting out of respect and love for the other person. It does sound to me, from what you said, like you are trying to do that, but he is not. What do you think might help him in this?

[indie]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom

Another thing about Christianity that bothers me is the Compliance based on threat of punishment aspect. If the only reason to do the right thing and be kind to each other is the fear of going to hell, then that's pretty sad. I try not to punish my kids or make them comply based on fear, so why would I want a church to do that to me?

This is not the Christian faith. As one of our scriptures says, "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." Christians who understand the faith know that we do what is right out of love not fear. This very much lines up with attachment parenting.


And to the OP, I am sorry to take it off topic a bit, but when someone so grossly mischaracterizes what someone else's faith teaches it is not fair to leave the statement standing without a response.

As for the original question, I think that the only fair way to deal with the situation is for both parents to be able to tell the children what they believe and why and each parent be able to introduce the children to things relating to what they believe. So you would be able to take them to church and he could take them to philosophical discussion groups for those who don't believe in God (or whatever is available). For only your husband to have veto power over you sharing your faith with your children is unfair. He needs to deal with the fact that he married a Christian and that it is going to come into play in how the children are raised.

Honestly, if he is not willing to let you both share your beliefs on equal footing I don't really see how the marriage can work. Although my husband and I agree for the most part about religion, we have some very different views on things like non-violence and we have simply had to allow the other to share his or her views with the children and allow the children to make choices of their own in regards to these beliefs.

[Mallori]

I guess what I am really looking for is more of an answer as to who should get their way.

I don't think that this is about religion as much as it is about control and fear. You respect his beliefs, but he chooses not to respect yours.


Also, IMO, If children are denied access to what a parent believes spiritually, then what is the point in teaching them anything? My God is the foundation on which all else is built. You take away the foundation and my house would rot.

Consult your pastor.