Slightly Confused...

[fresh_veggie]

...Just wondering, but why do people who vax their kids get so angry when there are others who choose not to vax? If their vaxed kids are exposed to a disease, their children are "protected"...so what's the fuss?! Why are they worried? I may be missing something important here. Sorry, thanks in advance

[KimberlyD0]

The simple straitforward answer for that would be because children who can't be vaxed, be it because they're too young, or medical issues, are at risk of getting these VPD.

Especially in a daycare or school situation. For children who have a comprimised immun system or something to that effect, things that a normal healthy child could get, like Measles, can in fact be more serious and its those children then who are at risk for complications including death.


This is the reasoning I've heard repeatedly. Especially from parents who have a child in those catigories.

[emma1325]

In addition to what Kimberly mentioned, I've also heard that since vaccines are not 100%, vaccinating parents would prefer not to expose the child to the disease at all, and they consider non-vaccinated children a potential carrier of a deadly disease.

I had one brilliant guy tell me the other day, "I trust that my seatbelt will work if needed, but I don't go around crashing my car to test it out."

I told him that if the seatbelt itself had the potential to kill or maim his child simply by being used the way it is instructed, he might be a bit more concerned about snapping it. Also, if there were absolutely no scientific data proving that seatbelted children had a higher survival rate than unseatbelted children in a crash, he might feel differently about the devices.

[Jugs]

Originally Posted by emma1325

In addition to what Kimberly mentioned, I've also heard that since vaccines are not 100%, vaccinating parents would prefer not to expose the child to the disease at all, and they consider non-vaccinated children a potential carrier of a deadly disease.

I guess the irony is lost on them; since vaccines aren't 100% (and not all of them prevent transmission), everyone is a potential carrier of disease.

[caro113]

I think for some people it's a power trip. I remember talking to one mom who didn't vaccinated any of biological children but her older step children were vaccinated (because that's what their mother wanted). Her daughter got some rash or something and the school nurse showed her all these disgusting pictures and lectured her and yelled at her telling her she was bring in all these diseases and because she didn't get vaccinated she could spread them to the all the teachers who were pregnant and kill their babies. Yea. She said that to a 12 yo girl and made her cry. When her mother called in the nurse actually said "if you would just vaccinate her, I wouldn't have to worry about this" Wow .. I'm so glad we have vaccines. I mean, humans just can't survive without them Anyhow, I think it's a power trip when it comes to some people. And a money issue when it comes to others (like doctors and such).

I think they also get off on trying to make people feel stupid and insignificant. "You are being really irresponsible" blah blah blah .. Yeah well, at least I don't blindly do whatever someone with a medical degree tells me to do. ... or when they say "my doctor believes it makes me child safer" blah blah blah .. that's what they said about giving x-rays to women in the 20s and thalidomide in the 60s.

Or maybe it's just a way of making themselves feel better. Who knows.

[fresh_veggie]

The immunocompromised child argument makes sense to me from a parents point of view - but it's true, no vaccine is 100% and children who ARE vaccinated can carry it. So it seems more like people desperately placing blame onto another when they don't really know.

I can agree with the power trip idea - not surprising at all. : I've seen that in my father (who ruled with abusive tyranny in the house growing up) when I even mentioned just delayed and selective vax.

But we also have so many travelers and immigrants who might be carriers of the diseases - should we close off our country? We will never eradicate ANY disease as long as we move more and more towards globalization. Sigh.

I'm really enjoying reading the responses. Thanks! More please!

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

...Just wondering, but why do people who vax their kids get so angry when there are others who choose not to vax? If their vaxed kids are exposed to a disease, their children are "protected"...so what's the fuss?! Why are they worried? I may be missing something important here. Sorry, thanks in advance

I actually don't believe it has much to do with the disease but instead it makes them feel dumb for not having researched the issue and their kids took the shot which #1 hurt and #2 may cause damage to their health.

They are second guessing themselves. jmo.

[karne]

Well, I'm not pro vax, but I did get pretty pissed off at some people in my older child's preschool who knowingly sent their kids into school after deliberately exposing them to some illnesses. I had a very sick preemie home at the time and another family had an immuno-comprised elderly family member living with them. It just didn't feel ok, and I admit to feeling annoyed.

[ericswifey27]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

The immunocompromised child argument makes sense to me from a parents point of view - but it's true, no vaccine is 100% and children who ARE vaccinated can carry it. So it seems more like people desperately placing blame onto another when they don't really know.

Originally Posted by karne

Well, I'm not pro vax, but I did get pretty pissed off at some people in my older child's preschool who knowingly sent their kids into school after deliberately exposing them to some illnesses. I had a very sick preemie home at the time and another family had an immuno-comprised elderly family member living with them. It just didn't feel ok, and I admit to feeling annoyed.

Yes, my nephew is immunocompromised (ironically as the RESULT of vaccines) and rightly so my sister is constantly worrying about him being exposed to other illnesses. So I can understand why it would be human nature to blame non-vaxers for "not doing their part" or "being selfish" by not buying in to the whole herd immunity issue.

BUT 1) my priority is to my children, as mama bear that is where my responsibility lies and I will not make decisions based on guilt or fear as i have in the past- that's likely how my oldest son has the vaccine related issues he has today- and 2) I can use the same above argument as why not to vax, atleast the live vaxes- people vaxing their children with MMR for example are putting my nephew and my sons at risk, along with pregnant friends and newborn babies at risk by sending their newly vaccinated children off to a play date or preschool with nary a thought that their child has just been EXPOSED to an illness, through vaccination, ykwim?

Anyway I think if we stopped messing with nature so much there wouldn't be this reaction we're seeing. It seems like one illness gets "suppressed" in a population-say early childhood- but then it surfaces at a later time- for example the child-bearing years, and then it becomes even greater of a problem, causing infertility, birth defects and so on- than if we had just let nature work as it was designed.

[humptydumpty]

to be very honest with you - I am totall in favour of vacinations. And I personally do not care if you have your children vacinated.
That is your responsability and later their own. Because vacinations are not livelong (well most of them anyhow) and boosters are needed.
By the way I am a little upset my mum did not have me vacinated against the varicella, because it was hell for weeks.
However I guess if I had a child or family member who could not get vacinated because of an illness or condition I would prefer everybody else to be vacinated. It would be great if we could eradicate all deseases that only have humans as "carriers" - it worked with the pox!
However it is totally irresponsible to get all worked up and shout at someone for not vacinating, especially a child.
Getting vacinated to get the vacine is not the aim of the game either - but having seen what polio can do to someone, I prefer the smaller risk from vacinations to hoping never to meet someone on the bus who is contagious.
Live is dangerous and for me it ends up in comparing probabilities. Everybody is entitled to do the same, if they get another result than I do - fine.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by humptydumpty

I prefer the smaller risk from vacinations to hoping never to meet someone on the bus who is contagious.

While that may be an accurate risk assessment for Germany, (I'm not familiar with stats there) currently in the US the chance is higher of a vaccine reaction than contracting ANY of the vaccine-available diseases.

-Angela

[MissRubyandKen]

Originally Posted by humptydumpty

It would be great if we could eradicate all deseases that only have humans as "carriers" - it worked with the pox!

While I agree it would be great if ALL diseases could be eradicated and everyone enjoyed perfect health also from the lack of them this just is not possible nor feasible. If you research the vaccines and the diseases you will quickly see it is not going to happen. Even if every person worldwide was to receive every vaccine available on the same schedule it would not happen.

Also the diseases we vaccinate for are only a drop in the bucket. Each one of the vaccines has CONSEQUENCES to the population. Research it. You may come to realize that we would be no better off even if some of the diseases we vaccinate for were eradicated.

As for the small pox, research that too. Forced quarantine had a lot to do with eradication efforts. Would you be willing to have the entire world endure forced quarantine to further the goals for the few other diseases that eradication is thought to be 'possible'?

[fresh_veggie]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

While I agree it would be great if ALL diseases could be eradicated and everyone enjoyed perfect health also from the lack of them this just is not possible nor feasible. If you research the vaccines and the diseases you will quickly see it is not going to happen. Even if every person worldwide was to receive every vaccine available on the same schedule it would not happen.

Also the diseases we vaccinate for are only a drop in the bucket. Each one of the vaccines has CONSEQUENCES to the population. Research it. You may come to realize that we would be no better off even if some of the diseases we vaccinate for were eradicated.

As for the small pox, research that too. Forced quarantine had a lot to do with eradication efforts. Would you be willing to have the entire world endure forced quarantine to further the goals for the few other diseases that eradication is thought to be 'possible'?

I agree with that, most definitely.

My dad's argument was that people who don't vaccinate today don't realize how many children died as a result of complications of the diseases, such as polio when it gets bad and with the iron lungs and stuff. I can see that.

I'm more of the selective and delayed type right now. Like chicken pox - would I get my kids that vaccine? Heck no! I had chicken pox when I was 6, just months before the vaccine came out. My older brother's teacher exposed everyone in his class (3rd grade) to the child in his class that came to school with the disease - she had everyone touch him. I'm pretty sure she was soon fired.

My mom was furious that my brother and I got sick - she'd wanted us to get the vaccine instead of having to itch for two weeks. Needless to say, now we know the vaccine wears off and people my age are getting as sick as a dog and the males are becoming infertile (in their 20s! How horrible ). So she knows better now.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

Needless to say, now we know the vaccine wears off and people my age are getting as sick as a dog and the males are becoming infertile (in their 20s! How horrible ). So she knows better now.

bolding mine. I have never heard of this as a complication from chickenpox- do you have a link?

-Angela

[fresh_veggie]

http://www.valleyhealth.com/Article.aspx?content_id=367

Q Can chickenpox cause infertility in an adult male?

Nancy , Ohio
A

Infectious diseases, such as chickenpox, can affect male fertility in a couple of ways.

First, a high fever associated with the illness can temporarily decrease sperm production. Typically, sperm production returns to normal within 90 days after the fever ends.

Second, infectious diseases may cause inflammation of the testicle (orchitis). This may result in testicular shrinkage (atrophy) and infertility. However, orchitis is most often associated with mumps or infection of the drainage tube of the testicle (epididymitis). It rarely occurs from chickenpox.

Rarely isn't "never" as far as I'm concerned :/ It still happens!

[alegna]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

http://www.valleyhealth.com/Article.aspx?content_id=367


Rarely isn't "never" as far as I'm concerned :/ It still happens!

Well... it's a theoretical risk I suppose. BUT, since it is so very rare in the case of mumps that there are no stats and I have never read a single recorded case, I would venture there's not a single case on record from chickenpox. Hardly "the males are becoming infertile (in their 20s!..." ya know?

-Angela

[Qalliope]

I'm confused by this too. The argument I hear thrown around is that we are somehow ruining herd immunity for people who need to rely on it because they can't have vaxes for medical reasons. So basically if immuno-compromised Johnny sits next to Religious exemption Suzie in 3rd grade, the world is going to come to an end - for Johnny at the very least?

However, the stats I see (at least with regards to school enrollment) is that non-medical opt-outs on vaxes are far less than 1% of the children in school and total unvaxed rates are only around 2%. If you see the school as the herd, we aren't statistically significant enough to cause outbreaks. If you consider all the people your kid comes in contact with though, at the grocery store, the park, the mall, the movie theater, there's a much larger portion of the herd - adults that have waning immunity or were undervaccinated - that leaves you unprotected and is a much more likely source of infection, isn't that right?

There was a study done after Arkansas added a philosophical exemption to see if the number of people taking an exemption increased after the law changed. It did, quite a bit, by between 15% and 50% each year for 3 years. Study here . Oddly, they note that incidence of VPDs actually decreased during this time. In fact if you look at the incidence rates from the AR health department (http://www.healthyarkansas.com/data/...le_disease.pdf) Pertussis rates dropped quite a bit in the year vaccine exemptions in schools rose the most. Not saying that proves anything, just suggesting that voluntary non-vaccination does not at this point seem to be having a significant effect on overall disease rates in a community even when there is a pretty big rise in our numbers. Maybe not enough time has gone by to see the effects though.

Forgoing vaccines is not a popular choice and never will be, unless some extremely compelling evidence comes out that we are doing more harm than good as a society by vaccinating children, so attacking those of us who make this decision just seems like a waste of energy, even if you are someone with an immune compromised child. Seems like your ire would be better directed at parents who never keep their kids home when they are ill. Aren't the odds a lot higher that a vaxed kid whose parent doesn't want to take time off work will end up infecting somebody with a delicate immune system with something like strep throat and having that lead to severe complications?

Why berate a parent who is just trying to figure out the best solution to a complex issue? After all, it is in part all the bullying and screaming and arm waving that keeps us from being able to find the answers to the questions that might set our minds at ease and keeps a lot of us in a state of doubt about their safety and efficacy.

I for one really want to believe that vaccines work and are safe, but I have a lot of questions that no one seems to want to answer.
Please, please, please correct me if I am misinterpreting anything.

[medusaatemydog]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0

The simple straitforward answer for that would be because children who can't be vaxed, be it because they're too young, or medical issues, are at risk of getting these VPD.

Especially in a daycare or school situation. For children who have a comprimised immun system or something to that effect, things that a normal healthy child could get, like Measles, can in fact be more serious and its those children then who are at risk for complications including death.


This is the reasoning I've heard repeatedly. Especially from parents who have a child in those catigories.

i think people who have sick children may find nonvaxers easy target to take out thier anger on... my partially/unvaxxed child (future unvaxxed children)is not a threat to a child who has an immunocompromising disease... why should i put my childs life on the line and vaccinate because a child is immunocompromised... that is absurd... that i guess all our children should live in a bubble for those who are immunocompromised... the thing is...what do these people do when they go out in public... do they check everyones vaccination status before they enter a mall or a grocery store.... this is soo ridiculous... you cannot get rid of disease by injecting everyone... it's ridiculous... there will always be disease of some sort ...it's part of being a living biological being.... Everyone else should not be responsible for anothers health... there should always be a right to choose... and if you want to vaccinate than by all means vaccinate but don't you dare blame me for your suceptability... that has nothing to do with me and i will not purposely damage or kill my child because someone else is afraid of life..or death

[medusaatemydog]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

http://www.valleyhealth.com/Article.aspx?content_id=367


Rarely isn't "never" as far as I'm concerned :/ It still happens!

There are many disease that can affect male infertility... MANY... many situations that can affect us and our children... so we inject ourselves for every possiblity... that doesn't make sense... and as far as i'm concerned the provax people base thier knowledge on FEAR... there is nothing logical about mandatory vaccination... absolutely nothing

[jram]

I've never posted here before, but this is one subject that I get questions about as well.

I don't get upset with people that DO vax, and tell them they are terrible parents for exposing their child to all the chemicals etc. in the shots. And possibly exposing my child and younger children etc.etc. to a live virus in the shot. I do understand the immune compromised can be at risk for a disease, but like the earlier post said, what if, when you go out to the grocery store, or anywhere for that matter, how are you going to know if kids and others are vaccinated.
In everything you do in life there are risks. Our world is full of all kinds of viruses and bacteria. Humans have been around a long time, and it's not because of vaccines.