Orthodox and Catholic women: Help! - Page 2

[philia]

What the heck ?

I don't believe an Orthodox Church can say they are Orthodox and be in communion with church if they adopt a different calendar. Are you saying that some Orthodox are not having Pascha this week and they celebrated this past Sunday ? I think they would have to split off from the church.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by philia

I don't believe an Orthodox Church can say they are Orthodox and be in communion with church if they adopt a different calendar. Are you saying that some Orthodox are not having Pascha this week and they celebrated this past Sunday ? I think they would have to split off from the church.

Yes, there are a fair number of Orthodox churches that use the newer calendar.

If you think about it, it could hardly be a doctrinal matter, since all calendars are made up anyway.

Apparently most of the churches that have changed use the Revised Julian, here is a bit about it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Julian_calendar

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by philia

I don't believe an Orthodox Church can say they are Orthodox and be in communion with church if they adopt a different calendar. Are you saying that some Orthodox are not having Pascha this week and they celebrated this past Sunday ? I think they would have to split off from the church.

The Orthodox Church of Finland, because it receives state support, DOES observe Pascha on the western date, but that's an exception.

In the US/Canada, the OCA, Antiochians, Greek Archdiocese (and I believe the Romanians), use the New (Gregorian) Calendar for fixed date feasts (such as Christmas and the Dormition). Pascha and movable date feasts that depend on the date of Pascha, such as Ascension and Pentecost, are on the Old (Julian) Calendar. The mix of the two is called the Revised Julian Calendar. Church of Greece is New Calendar, as well.

Old Calendar: ROCOR, Moscow Patriarchate, the Serbs, Ukrainians, monasteries on Mount Athos.

Not sure about the Bulgarians and the Patriarchate of Alexandria.

Bluegoat, *some* have changed to the Revised Julian Calendar, not all. In terms of numbers, more on are on the Old Calendar than the New, since the Church of Russia is Old Calendar. It just happens that more in North America are on the New Calendar than the Old, is all.

[lilyka]

even churches who use the new calandar will celebrate Pascha this week. old and new calander have nothing to do with it.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Tradd

Bluegoat, *some* have changed to the Revised Julian Calendar, not all. In terms of numbers, more on are on the Old Calendar than the New, since the Church of Russia is Old Calendar. It just happens that more in North America are on the New Calendar than the Old, is all.

Wow, so there are three different possibilities for calendars?! That seems a bit more than is really necessary to know what day it is!

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Wow, so there are three different possibilities for calendars?! That seems a bit more than is really necessary to know what day it is!

No, sorry - I wasn't clear enough. New Calendar=Revised Julian Calendar. Old Calendar="unrevised" Julian Calendar.

There are TWO calendars. As I said, it just happens that more Orthodox in North America are on the New Calendar (Revised Julian) than the Old Calendar.

[lilyka]

revised julian calandar is the "new calander". there are only two. and there are only 7 days difference (old calander is one week later than new calendar) . . . Pascha however is not figured up according to a date on the calander therefore we all celebrate it the same time because of how it is figured up (the same way as passover).

new calander or old it isn't really that big of a deal. So long as everything gets celebrated in the same order, spaced the same amount of time apart.. we need to be careful while upholding right doctrine and right worship not to get legalistic and judgmental. dates in general are kinda arbitrary and so long as we are not rebeliously screwing with stuff the church has approved two slightly different calanders for churches to abide by. the thing about little traditions and cultureral differences is that we need to be sure they are in keeping with doctrine and approved by the church fathers.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

revised julian calandar is the "new calander". there are only two. and there are only 7 days difference (old calander is one week later than new calendar) . . . Pascha however is not figured up according to a date on the calander therefore we all celebrate it the same time because of how it is figured up (the same way as passover).

new calander or old it isn't really that big of a deal. So long as everything gets celebrated in the same order, spaced the same amount of time apart.. we need to be careful while upholding right doctrine and right worship not to get legalistic and judgmental. dates in general are kinda arbitrary and so long as we are not rebeliously screwing with stuff the church has approved two slightly different calanders for churches to abide by. the thing about little traditions and cultureral differences is that we need to be sure they are in keeping with doctrine and approved by the church fathers.

Lilyka, the difference between the Julian and the Gregorian is 13 days. (Julian behind Gregorian). That why Christmas, December 25, is celebrated on January 7 - civil calendar - by those Orthodox that follow the Julian Calendar.

You haven't seen some of the calendar debates online then - whew!:

[lilyka]

my math skills suck I knew the difference was the 25th and the 7th but somehow that added up to 7 days to me. i will blame it on lack of meat . . . .

and yers I have seen the debates and I think they are stupid. Goodness, there are people dying without knowing Christ and we are fighting over the difference of a few days?! madness.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

my math skills suck I knew the difference was the 25th and the 7th but somehow that added up to 7 days to me. i will blame it on lack of meat . . . .

and yes I have seen the debates and I think they are stupid. Goodness, there are people dying without knowing Christ and we are fighting over the difference of a few days?! madness.

Heh heh!

Those forums are BAD!

My priest recently told me that 60% of the info out there on Orthodoxy is useless, most of it on the internet. I've known other priests, as well, that really only recommend the jurisdictional websites (such as the part of the OCA website you like to link to a lot) and sites with things such as translations of the Church Fathers. Real books are much better! He knows a lot of us are going to go to the forums of one type or another, but to get real info from books - or your priest!

Now, off to church in bit for Holy Thursday Matins! I'm off work and don't go back until Tuesday. Pascha is coming!

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by lilyka

new calander or old it isn't really that big of a deal.

This is not the place (or the day) to be debating about it, but I have to point out that there is another side to the issue. What seems unimportant superficially may be of far greater significance, and there are many reasons why the calendar change is vehemently opposed.

[philia]

Now I am confused

I always thought our calendar was set up so Passover would always be before Pascha. I thought we were on a Jewish calendar because that is what Jesus would have been on.
I hope you all are having a blessed Holy Week.
Philia

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by philia

I always thought our calendar was set up so Passover would always be before Pascha. I thought we were on a Jewish calendar because that is what Jesus would have been on.

There are two parts to the calendar, the fixed dates and the days connected to Pascha.
Pascha always falls after Passover, and all the feast days dependent on Pascha (Ascension, Pentecost, the Sundays of Great Lent, etc.) change each year according to the date of Pascha for that year.
Other days, like Christmas, Annunciation, most saints' days, etc. are set on a particular calendar day. For those the Church adopted the Julian calendar which was in use at the time. The feasts and fasts were set out over the years on that calendar.

I hope you all are having a blessed Holy Week.

I hope you are too.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

This is not the place (or the day) to be debating about it, but I have to point out that there is another side to the issue. What seems unimportant superficially may be of far greater significance, and there are many reasons why the calendar change is vehemently opposed.

From the outside, it looks to me that there are sensible reasons on both sides, that are efforts to remain true to the intentions, traditions and doctrines of the Church. It isn't, I think, an issue at the core of the faith, and those that disagree about it can agree on the principles involved, which means it should be possible to move forward with the issue, however slowly. Which makes it very sad when people get nasty about it.