Cape Dresses

[xekomaya]

Okay I've really wanted to ask this for a while so I hope it's okay. To you cape dress wearing mamas, why do you wear them? Is it just the "two fabric" thing? I basically know what they look like, but is there significance to the actual construction? And, iirc, "two fabrics" is only found in the OT (right?), so why would you choose to follow this part of the Law but not others?

Just very curious! Thanks!

[cappuccinosmom]

From my time in Mennonite circles, it has nothing to do with OT law.

It's more based on historical types of dress and their assessment that particular traditional styles were more modest. I have seen a few arguments based in the "original Greek" of some of the new testament passages on modesty. The "cape", that second layer over the dress, is for modesty. The idea is to cover up and de-emphasise the bust.

[TzippityDoulah]

I was a semi- cape dress wearing girl for a while... but honestly I just didn't get it. many cape dresses have such thin materials that "two layers" just looked like one anyhow. and honestly I wasn't raised culturally mennonite so it made little sense to me to wear the clothing. so now I wear whatever I want, so long as it meets my modesty standards. (which are high)

it's kinda funny b/c I can stand next to a mennonite friend in a cape dress, and I can wear my longest floor length skirt, a t shirt with a button down long sleeve shirt overtop (bust minimizing) and somehow in my area I still seem to come off as "less modest" than them! it's all about perception - as this is what they are used to seeing as modest, even though I am for more covered.

oh well. I take no issues with cape dresses, so long as it's not tried to say thay are the "most modest" clothing available. it's just one cultural variation of modesty.

[xekomaya]

ahh that makes sense. So it's more cultural than biblically mandated style?

No I wouldn't suggest that any form of dressing is "most modest". It's what you make it out of, how you wear it, etc.

[TzippityDoulah]

well... more so it is a cultural application to a Biblical mandate.

[Bluegoat]

I could be wrong about this, but I was told that many of the "traditional" Mennonite clothing was the stuff that was NOT in style at the time they were forming as a group. So, for example, their beards (squarish,) are the opposite of the fashionable beards (pointy.)

We have a big Mennonite community here, but they don't wear cape dresses, just plain floral ones, mostly in blue or pink (for the younger girls.)

[kapatasana]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I could be wrong about this, but I was told that many of the "traditional" Mennonite clothing was the stuff that was NOT in style at the time they were forming as a group. So, for example, their beards (squarish,) are the opposite of the fashionable beards (pointy.)

We have a big Mennonite community here, but they don't wear cape dresses, just plain floral ones, mostly in blue or pink (for the younger girls.)

I have heard something similar (in regards to Quakers though) that not wearing trendy or lavish clothing had to do with living simply, that the "simple" clothing was what was considered very simple or plain at the time, and that this why Quakers today who wear "plain clothes" dress that way.
Simplicty, as opposed to modesty seemed to be the main concern (though I'm sure for many quakers the former might be the case as well, I've just never heard it mentioned.
I remember a while back playing with a couple of little girls who were part of a quaker family who wore plain clothes. I noticed that when relating to them I automatically commented on things that they DID (like, "wow, you're a good climber!" or "You made that yourself?") rather than "I like your shoes" or "cool shirt!" which is probably how I might naturally "break the ice" or try to related to other little girls their age. I really began to understand why they were dressed that way. It seemed, almost... feminist :

I do have a question regarding plain clothes though (though this is more directed towards Quakers, if there are any here, but would welcome a Mennonite perspective as well, as I THINK at least some Mennonites share belief in gender equality/ not putting people into gender roles that Quakers do).
So here's my question; if Quakers do not believe in strict Gender roles (I have heard this from conservative as well as liberal Quakers, those who wear plain dress and those who do not) then why do Quaker women and girls who wear plain clothes always wear dresses?
Not anything super important, just something I've always wondered about.
Does it just have to do with the fact that when the religion began that that was the only option for plain clothing for women, and that not wearing a simple dress could be considered following a trend?

[cappuccinosmom]

I could be wrong about this, but I was told that many of the "traditional" Mennonite clothing was the stuff that was NOT in style at the time they were forming as a group. So, for example, their beards (squarish,) are the opposite of the fashionable beards (pointy.)

OTOH, there are groups where men are required to be beard-less. The rules vary so much with different groups. It's hard to keep track.

I believe, from reading some historical books on anabaptists, that when they began, women's clothing was rather modest, and they just simplified it, and then retained it as female fashions changed. Portraits of anabaptist women from the very early times don't look all that different than their contemporaries would have looked. Long, full skirts, and a shawl or scarf over the bodice. The shawl eventually became the attached "cape" in cape dresses--streamlined for simple construction and practicality. In some groups though, it's still a separate cape, either free flowing (Old Order Brethren), or tucked in at the front and back.

[PaulaJoAnne]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

OTOH, there are groups where men are required to be beard-less. The rules vary so much with different groups. It's hard to keep track.

I believe, from reading some historical books on anabaptists, that when they began, women's clothing was rather modest, and they just simplified it, and then retained it as female fashions changed. Portraits of anabaptist women from the very early times don't look all that different than their contemporaries would have looked. Long, full skirts, and a shawl or scarf over the bodice. The shawl eventually became the attached "cape" in cape dresses--streamlined for simple construction and practicality. In some groups though, it's still a separate cape, either free flowing (Old Order Brethren), or tucked in at the front and back.

Around the time Anabaptism was beginning, it is noteworthy that most of these people were of the lower classes.
Higher class women had some sort of supportive undergarment, whereas the lower ones did not. Hence, it was very obvious that the women were hanging loose.
The church leadership deemed it needful to add a layer of cloth to hide this problem.
Tradition has kept the two layers, even as undergarments became more widely available to the masses through the years.

Also, the reason that the style was never in step with the times, is that they tended to cling to "last years design". Only the wealthy could afford to follow the latest trends.
You will even see this today at times.
Skirt lengths will change at times amongst the plain. THere was a time in the '80s that long skirts were all the rage in the mainstream, but the plain had skirts that were midcalf, so, for all intensive purposes, they actually looked immodest next to the worlds fashions

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

OTOH, there are groups where men are required to be beard-less. The rules vary so much with different groups. It's hard to keep track.

I believe, from reading some historical books on anabaptists, that when they began, women's clothing was rather modest, and they just simplified it, and then retained it as female fashions changed. Portraits of anabaptist women from the very early times don't look all that different than their contemporaries would have looked. Long, full skirts, and a shawl or scarf over the bodice. The shawl eventually became the attached "cape" in cape dresses--streamlined for simple construction and practicality. In some groups though, it's still a separate cape, either free flowing (Old Order Brethren), or tucked in at the front and back.

:

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by kapatasana

So here's my question; if Quakers do not believe in strict Gender roles (I have heard this from conservative as well as liberal Quakers, those who wear plain dress and those who do not) then why do Quaker women and girls who wear plain clothes always wear dresses?
Not anything super important, just something I've always wondered about.
Does it just have to do with the fact that when the religion began that that was the only option for plain clothing for women, and that not wearing a simple dress could be considered following a trend?

I was a Friend for many years and from what I know of Quaker history, I would say they wear dresses because in "the great separation," Quakers who were influenced by fundamentalist, evangelical Christianity and anti-modernism, split off from the rest of the Society of Friends. They continued (some still do) with plain language and dress long after it had been dropped by unprogrammed Quakers. Although conservative Friends may not believe in strict gender roles, the custom of plain dress is part of the whole anti-modernist thing, something they hang onto from back in the day. (Plain-dressing Quakers are a small minority, by the way).

More about the separation here:
http://www.strecorsoc.org/docs/fracture.html

[Liquesce]

It never once dawned on me that cape dresses weren't designed as such to include a built-in nursing cover in the standard dress style.

[xekomaya]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

It never once dawned on me that cape dresses weren't designed as such to include a built-in nursing cover in the standard dress style.

That is really funny .. really really funny. You belong on MDC


This is turning into a really interesting thread!! I've realized I need to do more reading on the formation of different groups. I actually went to Quaker highschool and didn't realize there was such a think as plain dressing Quakers. They were extremely liberal though.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

It never once dawned on me that cape dresses weren't designed as such to include a built-in nursing cover in the standard dress style.

wait... maybe I'm having a duh moment!! say that again? I don't think I'm understanding what you mean.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

wait... maybe I'm having a duh moment!! say that again? I don't think I'm understanding what you mean.

Oh, ha. Sometimes the underlayer is made with nursing slits ... I thought accommodating that option was the whole reason for the style.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

Oh, ha. Sometimes the underlayer is made with nursing slits ... I thought accommodating that option was the whole reason for the style.

oh! gotcha!

yes the nursing slits are a part of a lot of the cape dresses. I think it's a "catch all" kinda thing... which is why the younger ones, like pre teens don't have capes on their dresses...

[PaulaJoAnne]

You ladies might enjoy this website.
www.quakerjane.com
Very extensive history on the plain dressing Quakers, past and present.

How many of you have read "Why do they dress that way"?
If you have not, find a copy and dig in. Its delightful!

I also have a rather extensive list on plain clothing in my blog. Right hand side, near the bottom.
Homepage link is under my username.

[tricia80]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

which is why the younger ones, like pre teens don't have capes on their dresses...

We start cape dress wearing for 12 yr olds because thats when they sit at the front of our church and its for modesty. Some start earlier d/t breast growth.. Only ladies who are nursing wear a nursing cape dress.

The cape is what we found to be modest. Our church is also strict. If you can see through it.. its not modest..

Again i am speaking from a Conservative Group.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by tricia80

We start cape dress wearing for 12 yr olds because thats when they sit at the front of our church and its for modesty. Some start earlier d/t breast growth..

right, which is why 6 and 8 yr olds dont have capes.

in our home we aim to have a double covering or thicker covering - depending on the shirt pr dress style. but i don't do that for my 4 yr old as she looks modest in one layer of course.

[tricia80]

I personally believe you can be immodest in a cape dress.. The cape dress itself doesn't make one modest. Russian Mennonites up here tend to be quite immodest but that group has a lot more issues that need to be dealt with...

Kinda weird though we were in the city about 15 mins from our place and we saw a women in a cape dress but her hair was down and no covering at all... I am curious as to know why she might have worn a cape dress.. (yes i am nosey).