Catholic or Episcopal - Page 2

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by sarahsmiles

Was Episcopalian -- became one as a adult and was very "high -Church." Basically, theologically and liturgically, I wanted to have my cake and eat it to. I wanted to believe that the Anglican tradition was a valid expression of the catholic Church founded by Christ, that the sacraments (at least some of them) were valid, that apostolic succession was maintained, and that the Eucharist was an essential part of worship.

I saw, over the course of several years, however, that *I* could believe those things and consider myself a good Episcopalian, but there were lots of other people who didn't believe these things (or didn't care about them) -- many of them in leadership positions in the church -- and we couldn't all be "good Episcopalians."

I really struggled with some of the "ethical" teachings of the Catholic church, but what I appreciate most is that the Catholic Church *IS* teaching, rather than just saying "this is the way life is now. Get over it."

Part of the reason the difference might not be obvious to an outsider is that much of the liturgy at the average parish looks similar. An Episcopal church might have a female priest, but otherwise, it could look like about the same kind of service.

So it sounds like to you, it was a question of authority. I am curious why you chose Catholicism over Orthodoxy?

[sarahsmiles]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

So it sounds like to you, it was a question of authority. I am curious why you chose Catholicism over Orthodoxy?

I actually have a good friend who's an Orthodox priest, and several Orthodox friends. For me, it came down to unity. There is too much fracturing (mostly along ethnic lines, historically) in the Orthodox tradition, although I also understand that there are different positions held in various "communities" about issues like birth control, abortion, etc. I've just never heard a compelling reason for all the divisions.

And honestly, my family history Catholic back in the day. I believe sometimes people convert to a tradition like Orthodoxy (or Buddhism, or whatever) partly out of a fascination with the exotic. At least some people I know seem to think the less mainstream their spiritual practice, the better.

I thought of another difference in liturgy between the Catholic Church and the Episcopal, though. Even the most modern, "church in the round" Episcopal church (in my experience) has an altar rail and people kneel for communion. The only exception I ever saw was a college chapel. This is strange given that most American Catholics today receive standing up, even though we have a much stronger understanding of the sacredness of the Eucharist (or are supposed to.) But that's another digression.

I guess I would counsel the OP, or anyone else, to learn as much about both traditions and to prayerfully discern where you belong, worship with both communities, etc.

[EnviroBecca]

Sarahsmiles wrote:

Even the most modern, "church in the round" Episcopal church (in my experience) has an altar rail and people kneel for communion. The only exception I ever saw was a college chapel.

This is one of the things that felt right to me about the Episcopal church when I first visited. Since then, I've been to some services where we receive while standing, and the only ones where I understand it are the ones where each person passes the Eucharist to the next*, because it's so much more awkward to turn around on your knees. Otherwise, it makes perfect sense that for this most sacred moment, we should kneel. My parish rearranges the chancel for Easter (the whole 7 weeks) such that the altar is in front of the communion rail and people receive standing at the chancel steps...and that really bugs me, so we go over to the other priest at the side chapel where we can kneel! (My son prefers it too.)

*Is serving Communion this way allowed at all by Catholics or Orthodox? It's not super-special to me, but I do like the feeling of all of us being more involved in it than when we receive individually from the priest. The priest still does the blessing of the bread and wine; it's just the serving that's done by the people. My parish does this at services that are outdoors or in someone's home or attended by very few people.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

*Is serving Communion this way allowed at all by Catholics or Orthodox? It's not super-special to me, but I do like the feeling of all of us being more involved in it than when we receive individually from the priest. The priest still does the blessing of the bread and wine; it's just the serving that's done by the people. My parish does this at services that are outdoors or in someone's home or attended by very few people.

Yes. You can kneel and receive, the people I see doing this usually receive directly in their mouth and from a priest. Some people also genuflect and then stand and receive communion either directly in their mouth or in their hand. Parishes seem to vary. I visited a parish in Virginia this past weekend and almost half the congregation knelt and received in their mouth which is far more than in my home parish.

ETA: Every Catholic bows before receiving communion. In the parishes I've been in people go row by row up to the front, when they reach the priest or EMHC they bow, say "Amen", accept the Host or Precious Blood, then cross themselves. The lines move pretty steadily, my parish is very large so there are usually 11-13 EMHCs plus the priest serving communion. The bow or genuflection to the Host and Precious Blood is showing deep respect and reverence for being and accepting the body and blood of Christ. So to suggest that because Catholics do not kneel at an altar rail makes them less reverent is sort of off-putting to me. The entire congregation kneels during the consecration and while others are receiving communion.

ETA1: Pope BXVI always serves communion to people who are kneeling directly in their mouth. I don't think he did this in the beginning of his papacy but every time I see him perform the Mass on EWTN now the congregation kneels one at a time to receive.

ETA2: How many edits can I do to one post??!!!! OK, reading your post again I think you are asking if other people can give communion to congregants other than the priest. YES. After Vatican II and probably due to the priest shortage Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion became a service that people in the church can be trained and perform.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/lit4.shtml

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

Sarahsmiles wrote:This is one of the things that felt right to me about the Episcopal church when I first visited. Since then, I've been to some services where we receive while standing, and the only ones where I understand it are the ones where each person passes the Eucharist to the next*, because it's so much more awkward to turn around on your knees. Otherwise, it makes perfect sense that for this most sacred moment, we should kneel. My parish rearranges the chancel for Easter (the whole 7 weeks) such that the altar is in front of the communion rail and people receive standing at the chancel steps...and that really bugs me, so we go over to the other priest at the side chapel where we can kneel! (My son prefers it too.)

*Is serving Communion this way allowed at all by Catholics or Orthodox? It's not super-special to me, but I do like the feeling of all of us being more involved in it than when we receive individually from the priest. The priest still does the blessing of the bread and wine; it's just the serving that's done by the people. My parish does this at services that are outdoors or in someone's home or attended by very few people.

The Orthodox receive Communion STANDING. We use leavened bread that is cut into very small cubes after the consecration. It's put into the chalice with the wine and the Body and Blood of Christ are fed to use with a large, gold/silver spoon.

[EnviroBecca]

Sorry I was unclear with my "footnote" with the asterisk. What I was asking about is whether Catholics and/or Orthodox are allowed to have Communion in which the bread and wine are passed from one person to the next through the whole congregation. For example, the priest breaks off a piece of bread and says, "The Body of Christ, the bread of heaven." and puts it in my hands. I eat it, take the paten, turn to my son, break off a piece of bread, say, "The Body of Christ, the bread of heaven." and put it in his hands. He eats it, and I pass him the paten. I turn back to the priest, who holds up the chalice for me to sip the wine and says, "The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation." Meanwhile, my son is serving the bread to the person on his other side. I take the chalice, hold it for my son to sip, and say, "The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation." Then he takes the chalice and serves the person on his other side. The bread and wine were blessed by the priest as usual, but every single communicant in the congregation is serving them to one other person--it's not just Extraordinary Ministers who can serve it. Based on Charbeau's answer, it sounds like Catholics do not allow this?

In most of our services, where the same few people are serving everyone, only priests and deacons serve bread, but chalice-bearers serve the wine. I was a chalice-bearer until I became a mom (and hope to go back to it when he someday becomes willing to sit by himself or with someone else); I had to attend a one-session class where we learned how to do it properly and said a prayer, but AFAIK it isn't considered Extraordinary.

[Peppermint]

Catholics cannot receive Communion by passing Him along, no.

This does not mean you would never see it happen, but it is unacceptable in the Catholic Church.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

Sorry I was unclear with my "footnote" with the asterisk. What I was asking about is whether Catholics and/or Orthodox are allowed to have Communion in which the bread and wine are passed from one person to the next through the whole congregation. For example, the priest breaks off a piece of bread and says, "The Body of Christ, the bread of heaven." and puts it in my hands. I eat it, take the paten, turn to my son, break off a piece of bread, say, "The Body of Christ, the bread of heaven." and put it in his hands. He eats it, and I pass him the paten. I turn back to the priest, who holds up the chalice for me to sip the wine and says, "The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation." Meanwhile, my son is serving the bread to the person on his other side. I take the chalice, hold it for my son to sip, and say, "The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation." Then he takes the chalice and serves the person on his other side. The bread and wine were blessed by the priest as usual, but every single communicant in the congregation is serving them to one other person--it's not just Extraordinary Ministers who can serve it. Based on Charbeau's answer, it sounds like Catholics do not allow this?

In most of our services, where the same few people are serving everyone, only priests and deacons serve bread, but chalice-bearers serve the wine. I was a chalice-bearer until I became a mom (and hope to go back to it when he someday becomes willing to sit by himself or with someone else); I had to attend a one-session class where we learned how to do it properly and said a prayer, but AFAIK it isn't considered Extraordinary.

Wow, this kind of shocks me, I have never seen this in an Anglican church. What about crumbs and spills?!

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

Sorry I was unclear with my "footnote" with the asterisk. What I was asking about is whether Catholics and/or Orthodox are allowed to have Communion in which the bread and wine are passed from one person to the next through the whole congregation.

Dear God, no! The Orthodox do not do this! Only a bishop, priest, or in a pinch, a deacon are allowed to distribute the Holy gifts. In fact, only a bishop, priest, deacon, or subdeacon are even allowed to handle the chalice, spoon, paten, etc. The only time there's an exception is when after receiving Communion, those in the Russian tradition are presented the bottom part of the chalice to kiss by the priest (or bishop). The Greeks don't do this.

The Orthodox take the Body and Blood of Christ very seriously. If there is a spill, for example, on the floor, the priest (or deacon) has to, well, suck it up by mouth.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Tradd

The Orthodox take the Body and Blood of Christ very seriously. If there is a spill, for example, on the floor, the priest (or deacon) has to, well, suck it up by mouth.

Oooo, gross!

We are supposed to use special clothes to soak it up, and then they have to be cleaned like a purificator (the thing for wiping the cup), and the water is disposed of in a special way. Which is why I am surprised by the practice of passing it around, who would want to go through all that. And you would never get all the crumbs from breaking the bread all over the place.

[Peppermint]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Oooo, gross!

It is the blood of Christ!

We (Catholics) also consume from the floor, if for some reason that cannot be done, the Body or Blood must be sent directly to the earth in a special sink located in the church. In hospitals, they are allowed to put Him in plant water if He is half consumed and unable to be consumed by someone else.

[EnviroBecca]

I'm not sure what is the official rule over crumbs or spills; I haven't seen a lot of worry over it, nor have I seen a big obvious spill. As a chalice bearer, I was told to soak up any drips with the purificator (fancy name for the fancy cloth napkin used to wipe the edge of the chalice after each person sips).

I don't mean to criticize anyone for feeling shocked, but we're discussing denominational differences here, so I'll explain my perspective, which aligns with that of at least some Episcopalians: Communion is a commemoration of a shared meal. We know from the Gospels that Jesus broke bread and shared it; we do not know whether he handed it directly to the disciples, placed it into their mouths, or let them pass it from one to the next. We know that he blessed a cup of wine, and they all drank from it; we do not know whether he held the cup for each of them, they held it for each other, or they passed it around and each held it for himself. Because of the spiritual importance of Communion, some solemnity and formality are required, but that doesn't mean there is only one right way to do it. Receiving in a way that is more similar to a meal shared among equals may be most spiritually fulfilling in some contexts; it is not taking it less seriously. (Jesus taught that religious leaders should be humble and not reserve special privileges for themselves.) The paten and chalice deserve special respect because of their role in our worship, but they are not objects too sacred to touch--Communion is about welcoming ALL of us to join with God. Not only do acolytes and chalice-bearers handle the paten and chalice, but in our typical service it is totally acceptable for any communicant to place her hand on the chalice to steady it, and then there are the services where we each serve the next person. The priest blesses a quantity of bread and wine she estimates to be just enough to serve the people present, but if she's overestimated, she and the chalice-bearers drink the extra wine. I think leftover bread sometimes gets saved for the next service, but I have seen my priest scatter it for birds while reciting the passage about how God cares even for the birds of the air. Episcopal churches may use leavened bread, matzoh, or wafers specifically manufactured for Communion; it's the blessing that makes it the Body, so there is no "wrong" bread.

Meghan, from your posts overall I'm beginning to think that the Anglican Church in Canada is very different from the Episcopal Church in the USA. Springmama, you're in the USA, correct?

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

Meghan, from your posts overall I'm beginning to think that the Anglican Church in Canada is very different from the Episcopal Church in the USA. Springmama, you're in the USA, correct?

To be honest, I thought she was Catholic for a while and wondered why she didn't post in our monthly threads.

Megan, you must belong to a very High Church Anglican parish, am I right?

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Peppermint

It is the blood of Christ!

We (Catholics) also consume from the floor, if for some reason that cannot be done, the Body or Blood must be sent directly to the earth in a special sink located in the church. In hospitals, they are allowed to put Him in plant water if He is half consumed and unable to be consumed by someone else.

I was thinking gross the floor, not gross the blood. Church floors can be dirty.

That is very interesting about the plant water. I don't know about the church we are in now, but at the last one we buried the water in a little hole.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

To be honest, I thought she was Catholic for a while and wondered why she didn't post in our monthly threads.

Megan, you must belong to a very High Church Anglican parish, am I right?

Yes, I did at one time, so their theology was very Catholic within what is allowed by the Anglican Church. Although I do have a few personal Protestant quirks, probably as a result of my Lutheran upbringing.

That being said, I'd have said the Anglican communion has a fairly consistent theology of the Eucharist (which isn't to say that there aren't those who fall outside it, Bishop Spong anyone?) So although there are different traditions about how exactly it is passed out, you always have to have certain things included in the prayer of consecration, and you always have to treat the actually elements very carefully.

I don't think the Episcopal church and the Anglican Church of Canada are that different, I suspect that it varies at the diocesan level. Bishops in recent years have hugely increased their power, while at the same time (or maybe because) decreasing the way they submit to the thoughts of the communion as a whole, for instance through the Lambeth conference. So there is starting to be larger and larger variations between diocese, both in practice and theology.