balance and rhythm

[spottiew]

I'm hoping that someone(s) here can give me some insight... my son is newly 4, quite spirited, and we are in year #2 of 4 at Children's House. In many ways he thrives- he likes going to school, his teachers, his friends, and his work. I like the school administration (I was very picky in choosing); communication is never perfect, but overall, the experience has been good. We like what we know of what he does in class, and feel Montessori is a good 'fit' for his personality and learning style (hands on, child directed). BUT...

He is perpetually 'tired'. Last year, it was a very physical thing, there was no way to get in the rest he needed in the school day, and he never 'adjusted' his schedule. He finally just stopped napping which does help, but it's not exactly 'tired'... it's mental and emotional too... he is simply 'done' by 3pm. His teacher compares it to how we would feel after a day on the job... only that is not what I really want for a 4yo!

Prior to this school, we had done a p/t daycare, where we went 3 full days with 2 off, and then moved to 4 partial days... we tried 5 mornings at our current place at first, but he asked to nap there and it did help some. I think the week feels long to him (and he tells me so!), he lacks 'free time', and many out of school activites are no longer able to be part of his life- just no time. I had not expected to give all that up for school, when none of it was an issue with the same number of hours in daycare.

His teacher talks about being kids being overscheduled, but he's not even scheduled- except school! Other parents report the same issue, they are just 'busy'- and they just live with it. Many parents I know won't do Montessori because they want p/t (non-daily) school, yet I feel there should be an answer from within- if you want my kid every day, tell me how to 'balance'... the school director wrote an article in our town Parents magazine last summer about family dinner- at that time we weren't even having dinner together becuase he had melted down by 5pm- just worn out by school.

And yet, it's not just about outside activities either... his mood after school seems to be a reaction to school, like he is pushing back. Again, I think it wipes him out, yet he has 4 hours left in his day, lots in his mind to do, and can't handle it. Then on the weekend, he barely knows what to do with himself because he has lost his rhythm... before Montessori, he had a very defined personal body rhythm that is now all gone- I don't see Montessori as really being concerned about that. I had thought the kids looked like they had so much inner peace- well he may in school, but the opposite at home. Yes, I have tried to carry things over from school, but again, he pushes back.

I'm not saying it all comes from school, only that school seems to provide a challenging element to his life. There has to be an answer how to balance a kid's life; I can't be expected to leave him hanging 'out of sorts', all for the good of this education.

Any ideas?

[vaw]

Could he have sleep apnea?

I would talk to the ped about a sleep study to rule it out.

[spottiew]

Originally Posted by vaw

Could he have sleep apnea?

I would talk to the ped about a sleep study to rule it out.

well he has always had trouble going to sleep but for a year now, once he does it he sleeps 11 hours solid- and wakes doing fine. it could be that he is still getting used to the no-nap, nap transitions were always long and rough at younger ages.

but it's more about mentally tired... even on a day off, we can go out around people, and it can 'tire' his senses. so school must just bombard him. (though he always needs to go out) we did not have this problem prior to this school with other care situations- i mean there was some 'downtime' needed, but not this desperate feeling of never seeming to get a break...

i just want to know if school should really 'wipe out' a 4yo like this? i can't think they are really doing anything 'wrong', there just has to be something that will be a lightbulb over my head!

[GuildJenn]

I had the same thought as the previous poster – have you eliminated everything physical? I'd just make sure first. 11 hours does not actually seem like enough time to me; my son is 3.5 and needs 12+, though, so that's me.

For the Montessori & tiredness itself, it's hard to say.

I was thinking it might just have been a developmental step. Do you think your son is introverted? (In the sense of "needs to be alone to recharge"). It may be that his entry to Montessori just happens to have coincided with a new developmental leap into needing to recharge differently. I know that at 3 my son's energy levels changed dramatically – for him he actually got way more active in certain ways and now needs physical play every day whereas before I guess just toddling around was physical enough.

It could be he's reacting to the schedule in that he goes every day rather than having a day's break, especially if he is introverted.

My son does come home from Montessori pretty tired from time to time, but he is there the whole day and would naturally be tired at that time anyway. Still, we have found that the following help him make the transition (but he's an extrovert): time outdoors on the way home, a snack right after school, sensory play (sink), and being very non-directive (give him his space).

I actually think this last is key: even though Montessori is self-directed, it is still a social negotiation and I find if I have a list of Things To Do or Directions To Give right after school it goes badly. I think sometimes kids focus their energy at school on being grown up (not in a bad way) and come home and we get all the 'baby' behaviour. The Secret of Parenting talks about this.

I don't think it's unusual for kids to have "weekend transition" if their weekends are really different from their weeks (esp. if one parent is home who isn't normally, etc.). I know I do. It helps us to plan some activities in advance ("on Saturday we'll make a Lego fort") – not that we don't change our minds, but it just gives him a sense of knowing what's coming along. This has gotten more important as he's gotten older.

With my son when he's away from school for a few days he actually gets grumpier if we don't find him some social time and enough to do, so I'm pretty sure he's comfortable there. He still comes home tired some days.

Having said all that though, if your instincts are going off I would listen to them. Maybe he needs some support at school to ground himself.

[spottiew]

Mine has never slept what it said for his age, but then, no child we know does. I mean, to get 12+ hours and up ar 7:30, would need to be ASLEEP at 7:30- that's when we start bed, I don't think we can start at 6:30, he wouldn't have any of that. I think he tends to 'run tired', but I don't think is all just 'tired' and could use another hour sleep- even if I could get it him to do it (if he won't, he won't).

I just can't think of a better word to describe this-it's more like that he isn't able to have interests anymore... I would say lack of energy, only he is very energetic, just 'wiped out' mentally.

Devleopmental? Possibly, but ALL the time for 1.5 years? He had seemed extroverted, but now sticks mostly to a few friends- but very social, even if it does tire hiim. Keep him home, and I become the constant playmte. He's desperate for attention, and yet he doesn't really lack any.

I personally think the 5 days is really hard on him- I can't be the only one, but other ppl would simply not go there for that reason. I just thought the school should have SOMETHING to say. They just talk about being low-key at home... well, he doesn't always like that. He wants to be able to do other things that we just can't.

SOunds like it's either a general 'school' issue vs. a Montessori thing or a 'him' thing. It's sad tho, day care never had this affect. I shouldn't give up the rest of our lives for school.

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

I had the same thought as the previous poster – have you eliminated everything physical? I'd just make sure first. 11 hours does not actually seem like enough time to me; my son is 3.5 and needs 12+, though, so that's me.

For the Montessori & tiredness itself, it's hard to say.

I was thinking it might just have been a developmental step. Do you think your son is introverted? (In the sense of "needs to be alone to recharge"). It may be that his entry to Montessori just happens to have coincided with a new developmental leap into needing to recharge differently. I know that at 3 my son's energy levels changed dramatically – for him he actually got way more active in certain ways and now needs physical play every day whereas before I guess just toddling around was physical enough.

It could be he's reacting to the schedule in that he goes every day rather than having a day's break, especially if he is introverted.

My son does come home from Montessori pretty tired from time to time, but he is there the whole day and would naturally be tired at that time anyway. Still, we have found that the following help him make the transition (but he's an extrovert): time outdoors on the way home, a snack right after school, sensory play (sink), and being very non-directive (give him his space).

I actually think this last is key: even though Montessori is self-directed, it is still a social negotiation and I find if I have a list of Things To Do or Directions To Give right after school it goes badly. I think sometimes kids focus their energy at school on being grown up (not in a bad way) and come home and we get all the 'baby' behaviour. The Secret of Parenting talks about this.

I don't think it's unusual for kids to have "weekend transition" if their weekends are really different from their weeks (esp. if one parent is home who isn't normally, etc.). I know I do. It helps us to plan some activities in advance ("on Saturday we'll make a Lego fort") – not that we don't change our minds, but it just gives him a sense of knowing what's coming along. This has gotten more important as he's gotten older.

With my son when he's away from school for a few days he actually gets grumpier if we don't find him some social time and enough to do, so I'm pretty sure he's comfortable there. He still comes home tired some days.

Having said all that though, if your instincts are going off I would listen to them. Maybe he needs some support at school to ground himself.

[spottiew]

NO more insights, hm? My guess is others would simply not send their kid or would make do. I just think Montessori should have an answer from within, as to how they are affecting the life outside school. You say 'life balance' to them and they look at you funny. You say 'personal rhythm', and they think you are an alien- why are these strange ideas? Dose everyone just throw them to the wind? What it leaves me with is a kid who doesn't know how to regulate himself in the little spare time he has, which is sad.

[MattBronsil]

Am I understanding this correctly? Do they have no naps at school for a full day program? If so, I would look at your local laws and see what they say.

[spottiew]

Originally Posted by MattBronsil

Am I understanding this correctly? Do they have no naps at school for a full day program? If so, I would look at your local laws and see what they say.

they have nap time 1-3, which he may or may not take... it's not about no nap, it's about even if he had the most sleep he could possibly get... he's mentally and emotionally tired after school and on days off. he's out of whack, out of sorts, he's not himself, he's just not the same... why does school do this to him when day care did not? why is he just 'done', 'wiped out' by mid-afternoon? i mean, family dinner? HA, not possible! i think the daily factor could be some part of it, but why does no one else address this problem? (or is it my kiddo?) I have a booklet that talks about Montessori and family time... we have so little of any quality, because he school does this to him...

btw, he is there 8:30-3... i could do just until 1, but then he would never rest, so the 3 at least gets him that.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by spottiew

NO more insights, hm? My guess is others would simply not send their kid or would make do. I just think Montessori should have an answer from within, as to how they are affecting the life outside school. You say 'life balance' to them and they look at you funny. You say 'personal rhythm', and they think you are an alien- why are these strange ideas? Dose everyone just throw them to the wind? What it leaves me with is a kid who doesn't know how to regulate himself in the little spare time he has, which is sad.

Well I guess I didn't share my insight clearly enough which is that Montessori doesn't produce this effect in my child (beyond issues he'd have transitioning between any two activities), so I myself find it hard to assume that it's all the school or method's issue or that they should "have an answer from within."

One of the reasons we chose Montessori is because the child does choose activities and can choose when to try something more complex or whether to return to a simpler activity. So for me as a base it does respect the child's rhythms. It may not be true in every group or for every child, but I'm not really sure what you want from the school here.

If you can't get your son to sleep or change your dinner time, why are you blaming them?

If you really think that going to school is destroying your family life then for sure, I would take him out. It may be a bad match or a chaotic school; I'm not sure.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by spottiew

why does school do this to him when day care did not? why is he just 'done', 'wiped out' by mid-afternoon? i mean, family dinner? HA, not possible! i think the daily factor could be some part of it, but why does no one else address this problem? (or is it my kiddo?)

I can't analyze why a child is tired that I have never seen that attends a school I have never seen, to be honest.

[Rose-Roget]

My ds comes home calm and centered after a full day at school. I'm sorry your son does not.

[spottiew]

I'm not blaming, i was wondering if in the 20+ years they have been in operation there has ever been a child in a similar situation such that they could tell me something. I rather doubt all the kids eat dinner at 4 or go to bed at 5 just to keep up. Heck, the teacher says it happens with her own kid- she is the one who refered to it being like how an adult would feel after work, but she chooses to live with it despite knowing what affect it has on their home. My question was meaning to be along the lines of is there a better way to integrate home and school to have balance in life, that's what I meant by 'from within'. The easy answer is go less or shorter days- I already know the difference that can make, but if all the others go daily, is there another way to have things be better, ya know? I love the education, I love the choice, I don't love the wiped out kid. Yes, I could leave- that is also disruptive to us; he's already been very hurt by changes in child care personnel. I want to talk the the administrator, I just wanted to feel people out here first, to see what things are like outside my school/town.
I get it that if your kid doesn't have this situation, you won't have anything specific to tell me. That it seems to not happen to anyone else may be signficant (or not), that's also want I wanted to know. Curiousity satisifed, thanks.

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

Well I guess I didn't share my insight clearly enough which is that Montessori doesn't produce this effect in my child (beyond issues he'd have transitioning between any two activities), so I myself find it hard to assume that it's all the school or method's issue or that they should "have an answer from within."

One of the reasons we chose Montessori is because the child does choose activities and can choose when to try something more complex or whether to return to a simpler activity. So for me as a base it does respect the child's rhythms. It may not be true in every group or for every child, but I'm not really sure what you want from the school here.

If you can't get your son to sleep or change your dinner time, why are you blaming them?

If you really think that going to school is destroying your family life then for sure, I would take him out. It may be a bad match or a chaotic school; I'm not sure.

[spottiew]

Originally Posted by MattBronsil

I can't analyze why a child is tired that I have never seen that attends a school I have never seen, to be honest.

i've tried to say, it's not really tired exactly... anyway. i'm getting the idea that it's just me. or my shcool, cause i DO hear it from other parents who are as stumped as me. it's a great school, it's not like i want them to do anything different, but i miss my before-school life (which did include day care but time for activities). all the schools i checked out (limited by area i was willing to commute to, we already drive far for this) had a similar culture... i would almost rather have it be my kid than Montessori

rose-roget: that is what i saw when i visited! that is what i want... and don't have i won't say he ever had inner peace, but he had more before than now. he seems great *in class*, and i get the 'diffrent at home', but I want some of that good time from him too, not just the acting out and sadness.

last thing im going to say, cause i think this whole issue may not translate well to this forum... before this school, he had a body rhythm- he got up like a little clock, ate every X number of hours, did certain types of activities at certain times by his choice, and knew when he was tired- almost to the point of rigidity! now, 1.5 years later, he has lost all of that... school did change his day; just as one example he used to like to go outside midmorning, now he has a '3 hour work cycle' instead. afternoons and weekends, he seems less able to respond to his own body needs now, or regulate his acitivty. no doubt part of that is due to age, but i also do wonder if school (mine) just doesn't really consider any of those things- and maybe I think they should, if it's to be 'education for life'. YMMV.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by spottiew

last thing im going to say, cause i think this whole issue may not translate well to this forum...

I hope you don't give up totally on it. I think it's an important discussion.

before this school, he had a body rhythm- he got up like a little clock, ate every X number of hours, did certain types of activities at certain times by his choice, and knew when he was tired- almost to the point of rigidity! now, 1.5 years later, he has lost all of that... school did change his day; just as one example he used to like to go outside midmorning, now he has a '3 hour work cycle' instead. afternoons and weekends, he seems less able to respond to his own body needs now, or regulate his acitivty. no doubt part of that is due to age, but i also do wonder if school (mine) just doesn't really consider any of those things- and maybe I think they should, if it's to be 'education for life'. YMMV.

It's a good point. I'd bring it up and address it with the teachers. Maybe some slight adjustments can be made to the schedule that would be beneficial to all students (i.e. starting some mornings off with a 10-15 minute nature walk). A school can't always accommodate things like that, but if you approach it with the pretense that your child is often tired and you know some things that help calm him and get him focused, there's no harm in at least asking.

Matt

[Koloe]

I'm inclined to think it's just to long of a day for him. That is a long time to be in "school" at 4-years-old. I know my DD was like this the first couple months of Montessori when I sent her 5x a week for 2.5 hours a day just after she turned 3. She is still often tired - but it has a lot to do with sleeping issues for her. I know she is more mentally drained when she goes to school than when she just went to daycare. Which makes a lot of sense, as there is so much more to do at school than their ever was at her home daycare.

I suspect the weekend issues may in part be from a long week at school, but may also just be your son. Maybe the weekend needs to be more like his school day? Or completely different?

But before pulling him out completely, I would try shorter days and see if that helps him - if that is an option.