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Sick to my stomach over the whole Babywise thing... - Page 2

post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I'm just so sad, angry and even confused that this is still even out there...

A friend of mine is trying to sleep train her four month old. She's reading Babywise, and really thinks it will work if she just gives it enough time. Several of her friends are telling her that it is the best thing they ever did as a parent and she is so hopeful that it will help. I've offered some of my advice but she clearly thinks my parenting style is so out-there because of all the AP things I do. (I'm actually pretty main-stream as far as AP goes!) I know she takes my advice with a grain of salt.

So I did a little internet search of Ezzo and came up with SO MANY recommendations for why not to follow his advice. I just can't believe there are people out there who believe in his sleep advice. And I can't believe he has somehow connected it to religion and made it seem godly.

Ugh ugh ugh. I'm just so sick thinking about all those babies who are being put through this. And sick thinking that there are parents out there who blindly follow the advice. If they follow what Ezzo says, what other things are they doing that feel wrong yet they do because they think it is the "right" thing to do???
Is your friend my sister-in-law? Mt brother and sis-in-law are doing the same with my sweet little 4 month old nephew. I tried to talk some sense in to my brother but I have no credibility b/c I still sleep (willingly and happily) with my 4.5 year old son.

It kills me that first they circ him then they leave him alone to CIO at 4 months old. Seriously makes my heart ache when I think about it.
post #22 of 43
When my babe was first born, I was so concerned about breastfeeding. I didn't want to do anything to screw it up and was full of questions for all the breastfeeding women in my family to make sure I was doing it right. My SIL always breastfeeds her babies at least a year, so I figured I'd get the best advice from her. She gave me her copy of Babywise and said that it has always been her lifesaver.

She started using it on her oldest when he was 8 weeks old, saying she wanted him to STTN by the time she went back work at 12 weeks. She works nights and wanted it to be easier on her husband (my brother) during the night. I read through the first few chapters and got a bad feeling about it. So, I did some research on Ezzo and was so glad I did before I tried any of his suggestions.

Scheduled feeding and CIO are both just so against everything I want to be as a mom. I always knew I'd feed on demand, I just didn't want on demand to turn into constantly. Luckily, I have a good, calm-natured baby who usually doesn't go less than 2 1/2 hours between meals. But who am I to turn her down if she is hungry again an hour later? Why should I make my baby remain hungry for another hour when I have the goods to feed her then?

The book is now sitting up on a shelf in her closet going completely unused. And luckily a lot of my anxiety about BF has subsided. I just listen to my baby and my body and do what works for us to have a happy baby. My SIL asks me sometimes how it's working for me, and I just vaguely say something about how some of the suggestions have been enlightening.
post #23 of 43
I didn't read all the posts thoroughly because I have a 2 year old , but I did read the book before I knew anything about AP and aside from the baby stuff (which I thought was horrid) It was so completely chauvinistic it made me sick. The main thing, I think in like the first chapter, was that you are teaching your child that your husband and marriage come first, and children are to wait until you are done "Connecting" with your husband before you tend to them. No where in the book does it give anything about a man connecting with his children. It's written by a man to tell a woman how to act during her marriage. I can't even believe women even read that book and not realize how demeaning it is.

And then the wonderful sources - co-sleeping is only done in 3rd world countries - then it sites Australia as an example (huh?) and the authors spoke to several woman in 3rd countries (their words) and they only baby carry because they have to and would not do it if they lived in a more industrial country (what woman said that? I want names! LOL)

Ugh that book makes me sick for many many reason!
post #24 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by lillymonster View Post

and they only baby carry because they have to and would not do it if they lived in a more industrial country (what woman said that? I want names! LOL)

On that note -- read THIS article about that very thing.
post #25 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenP View Post
Although maybe I should put footnotes and endnotes and attach some research papers and position statements from the AAP and offer it next time...
: EXACTLY what I considered doing about birth with my copy of the awful, The Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy I was going to donate it to the library with notes inside. But I wasn't sure if it was too wacky of a thing to do & might actually turn someone OFF to my message. Instead, I just recycled it. Wanted it out of my house!
post #26 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lillymonster View Post
I didn't read all the posts thoroughly because I have a 2 year old , but I did read the book before I knew anything about AP and aside from the baby stuff (which I thought was horrid) It was so completely chauvinistic it made me sick. The main thing, I think in like the first chapter, was that you are teaching your child that your husband and marriage come first, and children are to wait until you are done "Connecting" with your husband before you tend to them. No where in the book does it give anything about a man connecting with his children. It's written by a man to tell a woman how to act during her marriage. I can't even believe women even read that book and not realize how demeaning it is.

And then the wonderful sources - co-sleeping is only done in 3rd world countries - then it sites Australia as an example (huh?) and the authors spoke to several woman in 3rd countries (their words) and they only baby carry because they have to and would not do it if they lived in a more industrial country (what woman said that? I want names! LOL)

Ugh that book makes me sick for many many reason!
:

That's even worse than I imagined!!!
post #27 of 43
I am a Grandmother now But I can honestly say that I NEVER ever let my babies cry. My DD#1 is on here & shes very AP. I guess I was too though I never named it LOL I just could never stand to hear a baby cry. DD#2 slept with me till she was 8 or 9 maybe even 10. it just was right.

What i think of is this. Have you ever cried so hard that you cried yourself to sleep? I mean really cried. If you have you know that next morning how you feel. The head-achey, almost hung over feeling. How in Gods name could anyone want their baby to feel that way? It borders on abuse to let a baby just scream.

New babies can NOT be spoiled no matter what you may be told! Babies cry for a reason! They may be hungry, wet or just lonely!!!!!!!! Just want to be held! That is a normal human need!
post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatbaby View Post
On that note -- read THIS article about that very thing.
That's a great article. I wanted to post it on myspace page, but it won't let me

I knew I (and my DD) hated my stroller for a reason. She is 2, and I could count on both hands how many times I have used it. We just carry her every where or *gasp* let her walk if she wants.
post #29 of 43
When my oldest was about 4 months old. I finally caved to my ex-H and ex-MIL and let him CIO. After listening to him cry for the most stressful 30 minutes of my life, he was finally silent. I snuck in to check on him and discovered that he had cried so hard he made himself sick before finally falling asleep. It was the last time I ever did the CIO thing. He's 16 now and I still feel horrible about that.
post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsymommyof3 View Post
When my oldest was about 4 months old. I finally caved to my ex-H and ex-MIL and let him CIO. After listening to him cry for the most stressful 30 minutes of my life, he was finally silent. I snuck in to check on him and discovered that he had cried so hard he made himself sick before finally falling asleep. It was the last time I ever did the CIO thing. He's 16 now and I still feel horrible about that.
My friend has a 18 month old and says this happens a lot, her DS cries to sleeps and vomits and then falls asleep. She talks like this is normal. He has done it a few times, and it's no big deal (to her).

I can't believe people think it's normal and okay. I remember reading in Ferber book that if your child vomits, just clean it up and don't interact with your child and put them back into bed. I am so sad all those books are out there.
post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiLStar View Post
I'm guilty of reshelving ezzo books in the horror section.
OMG! I love this. I will have to do this from now on. Heaven knows I need some stress relief. Therapeutic and doing a good deed.
post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by lillymonster View Post
I didn't read all the posts thoroughly because I have a 2 year old , but I did read the book before I knew anything about AP and aside from the baby stuff (which I thought was horrid) It was so completely chauvinistic it made me sick. The main thing, I think in like the first chapter, was that you are teaching your child that your husband and marriage come first, and children are to wait until you are done "Connecting" with your husband before you tend to them. No where in the book does it give anything about a man connecting with his children. It's written by a man to tell a woman how to act during her marriage. I can't even believe women even read that book and not realize how demeaning it is.

And then the wonderful sources - co-sleeping is only done in 3rd world countries - then it sites Australia as an example (huh?) and the authors spoke to several woman in 3rd countries (their words) and they only baby carry because they have to and would not do it if they lived in a more industrial country (what woman said that? I want names! LOL)

Ugh that book makes me sick for many many reason!
Seriously? That is insane. I wrap my baby everywhere and people are always amazed and curious and talk about how much easier it looks than lugging around a stroller. I can't believe that anyone would suggest that baby wearing is the harder thing to do.
post #33 of 43
I say "Thank God" for the internet. I researched a bit and luckily picked the Dr. Seras book to read before I had dd instead of some less beneficial book. (I did read The Baby Whisperer but it didn't jive with the on-demand feeding I learned from Sears and my breastfeeding class. Also, even though my mom FF us, I remember my younger brother always being rocked and fed before bed.)

Then I read tons on the internet supporting the AP/breastfeeding position once she came along. There seem to be many, many more schedule/CIO books with unrealistic expectations out there than the AP or APish style. Having the internet gives me support when I'm doubting myself. This site, Kellymom and The Babywearer have helped me tremendously. I've also been on the LLL boards here and here... and received help from them when dd was a newborn (once again - found them on the internet.) All that and a BFig, co-sleeping best friend who understands my position.

My daughter is very lucky mommy has good resources!! I'm not sure exactly where we'd be without them...YK?
post #34 of 43
whenever it comes but i always tell people i believe in things like bfing, co sleeping, baby wearing etc. b/c it i sooo much easier and more convenient than bottles and strollers and baby cries so much less. plus since your boobs are in bed with you why make more work for yourself by putting baby so gosh darn far away when you could just keep baby in bed next to you and not even have to fully wake up to nurse.

i find people respond better to that then to actual information. when you make it seem like your taking the easy way out people suddenly jump on board then you throw in the better for baby thing like its just a happy bonus. if you keep it up conistenty when someones pg and throw in off hand comments about how CIO, ff, etc are so much unecessary work and how "your the whole universe to your sweet innocent baby who would never understand why he cries to be with mommy and she doesnt come. he would feel so scared & alone" it eventually starts to sink in. yeah i know i shamelessly play on the hormones but heck the hormones are there so we do this stuff naturally i figure im just helping them out a bit. my cousin is trying to get pg now and it is working thus far.

i think some peope also don't realize there are other ways. i try to make sure i get pg friends a few ap books early in the pg so they dont go out to buy their own and end up with babywise or something. this is why i like the attached dad book by dr. sears it gives men a frame of reference that extends beyond their mothers advice and its written by a dad for dads so it addresses their concerns better then most books would
post #35 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by sept15lija View Post
Babywise is all about scheduling your baby...scheduled feeds, letting your baby to learn to "self-soothe" at insanely young ages...I must admit I haven't read the book though, and I've read that the updated versions aren't quite as extreme, but still. Not good! Most of my friends & family sleep train, it's such a common thing. It makes me so sick. I always think - if their 3 or 4 year old came to them and said "mommy, I'm scared and I need to cuddle with you" would they say "no, go back to bed!!"??? (God, maybe they would...who knows)...but if their infant is crying and basically saying the same things without words, they're trying to manipulate you.
Good point! I always want to ask people who sleep train if they are just picking on the baby in the crib while they are in a padded cell and can't escape. My DH was complaining about sleep this weekend and people suggested CIO, which he then suggested to me. I was furious.
post #36 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by sept15lija View Post
I always think - if their 3 or 4 year old came to them and said "mommy, I'm scared and I need to cuddle with you" would they say "no, go back to bed!!"??? (God, maybe they would...who knows)...but if their infant is crying and basically saying the same things without words, they're trying to manipulate you.
Yes, they say "go back to bed." At least, I know parents who do with their toddlers/children. Mom and Dad's bed are for Mom and Dad only. From bed-time to wake-up-time.
post #37 of 43
Quote:
I think women in our society have this message of insecurity drummed into them by people like Ezzo. This idea that we have no idea what we are doing. That we need step by step instructions on how to mother. It is ridiculous.

If we were just taught to embrace our natural instincts as mothers people like Ezzo would not stand a chance
And here lies the problem, entirely. The first 3 months of DS's life, I was bombarded with information. It came from all directions, my family, my in-laws, my Mama friends, my non-Mama friends, the internet, strangers. I was so overwhelmed, and there were so many moments where I broke down crying, because everyone was criticizing one aspect of my parenting.

How easy would it have been for me, to just go to the book store, pick up a book that LAYS out what I should do, and do it? I felt like the whole world was waiting for me to stop co-sleeping, stop breastfeeding, and for DS to start STTN. I was at a loss.

Then one night, when I was up again, with a wide eyed 3 month old, something clicked. No book could ever compare to the instincts I had with DS. I knew when to feed him, I knew what to do, and I was HAPPY responding to his every whim and desire. I was only miserable when I felt like I was the only one practicing AP, or not doing sleep training.

A girlfriend and I got into a discussion about the benefits of a book about NOT sleep training. There are so many benefits to just letting your child guide you. It's an incredible journey.

Ironically, everyone kept telling me that unless I put DS on a schedule, he wouldn't get on one. Somehow, someway, before his 12th birthday, he figured out a routine nap pattern. Then he started sleeping longer through the night. It was just like he figured out he needed more sleep, and was old enough to comprehend that. None of my mainstream friends believe me when I say I didn't do ANY training with him.


Rambly, sorry. Babywise is sick, and it plays into the insecurities of mothers. It hurts my heart when I hear that mom's use it, and recommend it to others.
post #38 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by teale View Post
And here lies the problem, entirely. The first 3 months of DS's life, I was bombarded with information. It came from all directions, my family, my in-laws, my Mama friends, my non-Mama friends, the internet, strangers. I was so overwhelmed, and there were so many moments where I broke down crying, because everyone was criticizing one aspect of my parenting.

How easy would it have been for me, to just go to the book store, pick up a book that LAYS out what I should do, and do it? I felt like the whole world was waiting for me to stop co-sleeping, stop breastfeeding, and for DS to start STTN. I was at a loss.

Then one night, when I was up again, with a wide eyed 3 month old, something clicked. No book could ever compare to the instincts I had with DS. I knew when to feed him, I knew what to do, and I was HAPPY responding to his every whim and desire. I was only miserable when I felt like I was the only one practicing AP, or not doing sleep training.

A girlfriend and I got into a discussion about the benefits of a book about NOT sleep training. There are so many benefits to just letting your child guide you. It's an incredible journey.

Ironically, everyone kept telling me that unless I put DS on a schedule, he wouldn't get on one. Somehow, someway, before his 12th birthday, he figured out a routine nap pattern. Then he started sleeping longer through the night. It was just like he figured out he needed more sleep, and was old enough to comprehend that. None of my mainstream friends believe me when I say I didn't do ANY training with him.


Rambly, sorry. Babywise is sick, and it plays into the insecurities of mothers. It hurts my heart when I hear that mom's use it, and recommend it to others.
I totally agree with that. I think that is why books like that exist. Because there are SO MANY of them, and people think that they can't trust their own instincts. Just like with birth, we are scared into thinking we can't trust our bodies and that we couldn't possibly handle the pain. So we listen to the 'experts' (aka- OB) and do whatever they say. (so glad I had a MW!!!) Instinct is very hard to listen to when culture is telling you the exact opposite.

I am really glad that my mom and MIL are both very AP supportive. But for those who aren't as lucky to have that, and everyone they know tells them to read Babywise, it is very easy to fall into the trap.

ETA: it also comes down to research. but of course, you can research something until you are blue in the face and you will find so many 'studies' that contradict eachother. it is so hard to know what is best. that is why I'm SOOO glad I found MDC!!
post #39 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by haurelia View Post


Hello? You signed up to be a parent, that means your kids' needs come first until they're able to meet their needs themselves...especially as newborns.
I realize that we all need to meet our own needs too, but sometimes one has to juggle that, especially with a newborn. Maybe you need 9 hours of sleep per 24 hours...you don't necessarily get that all in one chunk!

Agh!:
AMEN! You put that so well.
post #40 of 43
You know what I'm thinking--and I'll probably be scolded for suggesting this but IMO it's better than Ezzo--maybe you could say to your friend, "Ok, you know I don't hold with sleep training at all, but if you feel you must, at least try reading about Jodi Mindell's method, (or other, maybe suggest Elizabeth Pantley's book), which is less harsh than Ezzo."

That infuriates me though, that Ezzo is so disrespectful of actual research and facts.

I remember when dh's sister and her husband first had their baby and SIL mentioned that a friend of hers lent her a copy of Babywise. She tentatively said she thought it was a bit extreme and I quickly told her that they were advised against by the AMA or something like that--I think they were but I wasn't sure of the exact association that did put out something advising parents not to follow Ezzo, but I had to put it that way, otherwise she might have followed it, as many of her friends had. I don't have much credibility with dh's sisters and their husbands either and with some people it always helps to mention the ACOG or something or other like that. In favor of your argument of course. Works like a charm with MIL.
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