Raw feeding - learning how to chew and $$ - Page 2

[babynatasha]

Originally Posted by Ola_

I'm not sure where you are getting that from? One of my dogs is a 10 year old who is the world's biggest couch potato and his health has really improved on the raw diet.

I'm not saying that a raw diet is bad for a "couch potato" dog, just that such a high protien raw diet might not be the best. Many raw diets include a good mix of raw vegetables as well and carbohydrates. Our diet is very heavy on the protien though. A raw diet, in any sense, will help most dog, IMO. I also think it is good to work with a vet who understands raw diets, as they can help you formulate a diet that is best at meeting your dogs individual needs.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by babynatasha

I'm not saying that a raw diet is bad for a "couch potato" dog, just that such a high protien raw diet might not be the best. Many raw diets include a good mix of raw vegetables as well and carbohydrates. Our diet is very heavy on the protien though. A raw diet, in any sense, will help most dog, IMO. I also think it is good to work with a vet who understands raw diets, as they can help you formulate a diet that is best at meeting your dogs individual needs.

I'm still not sure why you say that. How do you define high protein? Where is the data to back up such a recommendation? The only studies I am aware of indicate that only dogs with kidney disease in the *advanced* stages benefit from protein restriction.

We do not feed veggies or carbs (except the occasional treat). And to date I have only found one vet who knew about raw (he also fed it to his own dogs), everyone else has suggested to just buy the kibble they sell in their office instead.

I don't mean to be argumentative but this topic irks me greatly. The pet food industry has us convinced that we can feed ourselves but not our animals. In fact, they tell us that the processed food that has lots of preservatives (has to be shelf-stable at room temp, after all) is *better* than fresh food. And the medical professionals we often ask for advice are trained by these companies while in school and given free samples to promote them. I firmly believe that anyone who can feed themselves can also feed their pet, with a little reading on the subject.

[mistymama]

babynatasha - not trying to be snarky at all, I'm seriously curious - do you have any studies or links to back up what you are saying? I like to read all angles on a subject and what you are saying is something I've never heard of. Can you help me find some links or studies?

It's been my understanding that dogs can not digest raw veggies well at all - thus the reason why we see them come out the other end intact. I thought if you were going to feed veggies, the best way was cooked and pureed - similar to what a wild animal might consume from the stomache contents of his meal.

I certainly don't think grains are necessary and it's my understanding that even the laziest dog ever would thrive on a high protein raw diet. I am very interested to see where you are getting your point of view, thanks in advance for sharing.

[oneKnight]

A raw diet is not generally high protein.

If you look at the break down from say, a chicken leg, which is a common raw feeding meal:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...st_nut_edit.pl
it's 18% protein and 69% water (per 100grams)
Or
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...st_nut_edit.pl
Pork loin (chops) bone in
It's 20% protein and 67% water (per 100grams)

Compared to some kibble brands:
Iams Large Breed Adult: Crude protein (min.) 23%
Beneful Adult Dog Food: Crude protein (min.) 25%
Blue Buffalo Lamb and Brown Rice (adult dog food) Crude Protein (min.) 22.0%
Eukanuba Adult Premium Performance Formula Dog Food: Crude protein (min.) 30%
(Guaranteed Analysis info taken from Petco website, random adult foods taken from the first page of dry dog foods)

[bec28]

Thanks for everyone's suggestions!

We started letting her eat on her own and she's done really well! I can't believe I thought she needed help I was just so worried she'd choke on something because she eats so fast.

She seems to be doing really well with it so far. Now it's just a matter of finding cheaper things to feed her.

[babynatasha]

Originally Posted by Ola_

I'm still not sure why you say that. How do you define high protein? Where is the data to back up such a recommendation? The only studies I am aware of indicate that only dogs with kidney disease in the *advanced* stages benefit from protein restriction.

We do not feed veggies or carbs (except the occasional treat). And to date I have only found one vet who knew about raw (he also fed it to his own dogs), everyone else has suggested to just buy the kibble they sell in their office instead.

I don't mean to be argumentative but this topic irks me greatly. The pet food industry has us convinced that we can feed ourselves but not our animals. In fact, they tell us that the processed food that has lots of preservatives (has to be shelf-stable at room temp, after all) is *better* than fresh food. And the medical professionals we often ask for advice are trained by these companies while in school and given free samples to promote them. I firmly believe that anyone who can feed themselves can also feed their pet, with a little reading on the subject.

I know this is a touchy subject, that was why I was careful to say I had "heard" that a high protien diet can be bad for some dogs. I base this on my understanding from my naturopath doctor on my diet (which is high protien and at least 45min per day of cardio excercise) and he told me to make sure that I was excercising enough as protien can turn stagnant in the system without excersise. I also base this on the reading I have done on the lab board I posted about: http://lab-retriever.net/board/index.php? . There is a wealth of information on that site and to be honest, I don't have the time to sift through all the info and post segments here. That is why I suggested it in the first place, I felt most people would like to see the information provided for themselves and make their own assumptions/decisions based on what they had read. I am just trying to make the OP aware that there are many thoughts on this subject of raw feeding and just because an all meat diet worked for one dog, it might not yeild the same benefits in her own dog and that adjustments can be made.

Maybe I live in an area where many people are feeding their dogs raw food. I have a dog accupuncturist that I have discussed my dogs diet with (he and his wife are vets who also practice chinese herbs as well), my naturopath vet who was the one who suggested overcooked barley or rice as a dietary supplement and my "normal" general practice vet, who understands I am not just feeding raw without researching my options. I also found the "Give a Dog a Bone: The Practical Commonsense Way to Feed Dogs for a Healthy Life" book by Ian Billinhurst to be helpful. Throughout my reading and talking with other people who feed a raw diet, I have found that fresh vegetables are encourgaged. From my understanding it is best if they are raw/uncooked vegetables, best digested if they are pureed like baby food. This will simulate the process of digestion that has already started to break down vegetables in the prey. Again, do your own research, make your own conclusions.

I never said or alluded to the fact that processed food was better. I don't beleive that and would never recommend it.

I am not a vet, I am not a dietician, I am just a normal person who feeds a raw diet based on the research I did. Sorry if other people have different views on feeding raw, I guess I thought the OP wanted suggestions. Most of my original post gave info I thought would be helpful in determining what people spent on feeding a raw diet.

Here is some info I could quickly gather:
-http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/beginners-guide-natural-t101487.html gives a broad outline of a "natural diet" or raw diet.
-List of helpful books:
Give your Dog a Bone by Dr. Ian Billinghurst
Grow Your Pups With Bones, The BARF Diet, by Dr. Ian Billinghurst
Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health by Tom Lonsdale
Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats: The Ultimate Pet Diet by Kymythy Schultze.
Raw Dog Food: Make It Easy for You and Your Dog by Carina Beth Macdonald
Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats
Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog by Wendy Volhard
The Nature of Animal Healing - Martin Goldstein DVM
-http://www.caberfeidh.com/NaturalDiet.htm
-Information on so many subjects regarding raw feeding: http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html
-Pictures of what people are feeding their dogs: http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/p...aw-t75118.html
-Master sticky list for links to information: http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/r...e-t101573.html

[oneKnight]

Originally Posted by babynatasha

I never said or alluded to the fact that processed food was better. I don't beleive that and would never recommend it.

No you didn't, but many people feed kibble and their dogs live on 22%+ protein kibble --- that's considered "normal"

While raw meat is generally less protein than your average kibble.

Raw feeding is NOT generally HIGH protein. If you wanted to say it was high in something, it's high in water (67%!! in one piece of meat!!!) That's why raw fed dogs generally need to drink less liquid water because they are consuming it when they eat.