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scripture for the unreligious?

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 
i'm spiritually homeless, atm. i was pretty psyched about judaism, but couldn't come to terms with the idea of converting my children (although i haven't ruled it out for myself at some point in the future). i think i can continue as i have been for, well, most of the past decade: just believing what i believe, on my own, maybe take the kids to uu so they're not total boneheads, do some little rituals on our own. but anyway. to the point.

if you believe in god (or whatever) but are not religious, what is your perspective on scripture? do you feel you can claim nothing, or do you claim everything? what do you enjoy reading?
post #2 of 48
I claim everything. I love the Bible, especially the Old Testament. The Koran is my favorite book. I also like the Ramayana and love mythology from various cultures. I like a little of everything, really. I don't view any as the word of god, but I do view all of them as inspired by the sacred.
post #3 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChampagneBlossom View Post
The Koran is my favorite book.
May I ask why?
post #4 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
May I ask why?
yeah I'm curious too...
----


I personally think it would be hard to "claim everything" considering it isn't just like a group of poems or beautiful writings... it's instructions and heritage of the people the book was written by and for... some things may be applicale ot all people - and there may be wisdom and such in it... but if you're looking for spiritual signifigance... well it just doesn't work to just "claim them all".

If it was just a historical book or just a work of fiction, that would be different. But, when you read a book full of commands and spiritual inspiriation it would be missing the point entirely to just love all the "religious books" equally.

unless of course you're looking from an strictly anthrological standpoint...
post #5 of 48
Before I became a born again Christian, I was Jewish - raised in Reform Judaism. I had not read much of the Bible, nor did I have much - ok - not any desire to read it. When I was in high school, an English teacher told us that everyone should read the entire Bible to be fully educated or something like that. I was insulted at that time. But, as an adult, when I did finally read it all, I remembered that and understood what she had meant. Everyone should read the entire Bible - not just as a part of a religion, but for the cultural understanding too. Our culture is sooo influenced by the Bible and having never read most of it before I was struck by how much of it really does impact our culture in so many ways.
So, in that respect, I think that scripture is great for the unreligious to read.
It is also just great literature in many ways. Some of the Old Testament reads like a soap opera - at least that was my impression when I first read it, and now I am reading the apocryphyl books and while I don't like some of them, I absolutely loved Judith - I know - some people will think that is rather odd, but I just love the story.
So, I don't know quite what you mean about "claiming" things, but the Bible is definitely worth reading - it is a great book!
I have not read the Koran, but I have read a lot of philosophy books and they are interesting too.
I found that a lot of things that I had heard as "sayings" were from the Bible and also that some "sayings" that I thought were in the Bible are not really in it.
The Bible stories are interesting and some are fun to share with children whether you believe they are true or divine or not.
And, the Bible is just a great book to read whether you believe it is true or not as well.
post #6 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
yeah I'm curious too...
----


I personally think it would be hard to "claim everything" considering it isn't just like a group of poems or beautiful writings... it's instructions and heritage of the people the book was written by and for... some things may be applicale ot all people - and there may be wisdom and such in it... but if you're looking for spiritual signifigance... well it just doesn't work to just "claim them all".
I disagree that one can't claim them all.
There are Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, Pagan and Muslim verses or teachings that are integral to shaping and guiding my spiritual practise and my world view.
If you read through the lens that all religions have things to teach us and that while none of them have definitive answers, taken together they can weave the strands of understanding, love and peace.
post #7 of 48
I think HennyPenny meant that you can't claim the Bible as a whole, as some of it is very thematically non-transferable (as it were!).
post #8 of 48
I love the Koran because of its absolute exquisite beauty in describing God, the desert imagery, the descriptions of bliss in paradise... It's just really lovely. And uplifting. I know that there are many passages that are not quite that "positive" in there, but the overall message seems to jive with me. And there are a lot of misconceptions out there ABOUT the Koran, and a lot of quotes are taken out of context. I can't say I ever read it in Arabic, so I never got the "real" version of it, but I'd rather get the second-hand translated version rather than third-hand selected quotes from the translation. If that makes sense.

I also disagree that you can't claim them all. Does a Christian feel they need to practice all the laws in Leviticus? And yet they're still in the Bible, no? So are they not "claiming" Leviticus?

Like I said earlier, I don't view any of the texts as "this is the one and true word of God" - if that was the case, I'd be very confused indeed, seeing how many of them contradict each other. And I don't follow any one religious text to the letter anyway, so if I "claimed" Jewish writings and didn't follow the mitzvah, I'd be pretty hypocritical, right? That's not how I mean it, though. I mean claim it in the sense of... taking the spirit, not the letter. What are the requirements to "claim" a text? To me it means to read it, meditate on it, try to absorb its lessons, understand the context behind it (the culture and such) etc.

Oh, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. My point is that as a world religions major in college I had to do a lot of reading from different traditions, and I guess I grew to love them all. At one point I tried to find one that I could follow fully and convert to one religion, but I never could really settle on one and remain true to my conscience. So instead of abandoning them all, I wanted to glean as much as I could from as many as I could. I hope that makes sense. I think you can still participate in deep and meaningful conversations and analysis of Scripture and the like without being exlclusive with it. Perhaps your take will differ from that of "a believer" (I'm not trying to be snarky, but I mean someone who subscribes to that particular faith) and your take might be slightly less literal than theirs, but

Plus most religions have much in common. That's what makes it interesting to me, I think, to see where they all overlap and agree. Sometimes they talk about the same thing, just with different vocabulary. And sometimes you get new insights and perspectives if you look at differing beliefs and see where they might meet. For example, nirvana is very different than heaven, but it's interesting to compare and contrast the two. And I don't even mean to make this all about anthropology (although that is interesting too). I do think many religions (I hesitate to say most) are inspired by God, and most promote similar values and morality. I think they could very well come from God and not just from humanity.
post #9 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChampagneBlossom View Post
I love the Koran because of its absolute exquisite beauty in describing God, the desert imagery, the descriptions of bliss in paradise... It's just really lovely. And uplifting. I know that there are many passages that are not quite that "positive" in there, but the overall message seems to jive with me. And there are a lot of misconceptions out there ABOUT the Koran, and a lot of quotes are taken out of context. I can't say I ever read it in Arabic, so I never got the "real" version of it, but I'd rather get the second-hand translated version rather than third-hand selected quotes from the translation. If that makes sense.

I also disagree that you can't claim them all. Does a Christian feel they need to practice all the laws in Leviticus? And yet they're still in the Bible, no? So are they not "claiming" Leviticus?

Like I said earlier, I don't view any of the texts as "this is the one and true word of God" - if that was the case, I'd be very confused indeed, seeing how many of them contradict each other. And I don't follow any one religious text to the letter anyway, so if I "claimed" Jewish writings and didn't follow the mitzvah, I'd be pretty hypocritical, right? That's not how I mean it, though. I mean claim it in the sense of... taking the spirit, not the letter. What are the requirements to "claim" a text? To me it means to read it, meditate on it, try to absorb its lessons, understand the context behind it (the culture and such) etc.

Oh, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. My point is that as a world religions major in college I had to do a lot of reading from different traditions, and I guess I grew to love them all. At one point I tried to find one that I could follow fully and convert to one religion, but I never could really settle on one and remain true to my conscience. So instead of abandoning them all, I wanted to glean as much as I could from as many as I could. I hope that makes sense. I think you can still participate in deep and meaningful conversations and analysis of Scripture and the like without being exlclusive with it. Perhaps your take will differ from that of "a believer" (I'm not trying to be snarky, but I mean someone who subscribes to that particular faith) and your take might be slightly less literal than theirs, but

Plus most religions have much in common. That's what makes it interesting to me, I think, to see where they all overlap and agree. Sometimes they talk about the same thing, just with different vocabulary. And sometimes you get new insights and perspectives if you look at differing beliefs and see where they might meet. For example, nirvana is very different than heaven, but it's interesting to compare and contrast the two. And I don't even mean to make this all about anthropology (although that is interesting too). I do think many religions (I hesitate to say most) are inspired by God, and most promote similar values and morality. I think they could very well come from God and not just from humanity.
I wonder if perhaps what Henny Penny meant was what you have already said - that if you take the scriptures for what they claim to be, they would not all be compatible. Another question that would come to my mind with this approach is that religious works generally have a kind of internal consistency or system, so the techings/observations in them are connected. So, some might argue, to take the wisdom of the Old Testament but ignore the Law would be missing the point - the two things are connected. Using that method it might be impossible to get the main point of Islam for example - submission to God. If you set yourself up as the arbitrator of what is useful in the Koran, for example, that is the opposite of submission.

On the other hand, if you don't think those books are what they claim to be, then you would be free to take the bits you like, or read them as literature or historical/anthropological documents.

I think the danger with taking spiritual writings in bits and pieces though, is that it becomes very easy only to take what appeals to us and leave out what we don't like/connect with easily. The idea of a spiritual discipline is lost, and that is something which every religion places value on.

All that being said, of course atheists can read religious texts. Any person who wants to read the literature of a people seriously needs to be familiar with their religious texts.
post #10 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
I think HennyPenny meant that you can't claim the Bible as a whole, as some of it is very thematically non-transferable (as it were!).
Yep.

Karen it seems you would be looking at it from an appreciative anthropological standpoint. getting something from all religions - learning from religion in general (which I acknowledged)

but you can't personally group all religious books together and claim them all as your "religious" guides considering they very much contradict one another. maybe some common themes with in them... but that isn't the purpose of any of the texts.

so if you want to get something OTHER than what the writers intended from the Bible (for instance) go for it. but that wasn't what it was written for.

(besides, when do you an I agree on anything anyhow? )
post #11 of 48
Without going too in depth with it, are you guys saying that unless you believe a text to be the word of God, you're never going to get the full experience? I suppose that's true in one way, but then, say, how's that different from a fundamentalist Christian who believes in creationism vs a more "progressive" Christian who believes it's a metaphor, or believes in a mix of evolution vs creation, or whatever?

The other thing is, I get a little annoyed when people assume that if you read lots of religious texts you ignore the hard parts and only read the parts that make you feel good about yourself. (I'm not saying anyone on this thread said that but that's the whole "cafeteria catholic" or "spiritual shopper" idea.) When I was talking about the Koran, for example, I highlighted the parts that really appeal to me. But, I have also read, reflected on, and even changed my life around in small ways (so far) due to the "less fun" passages in the Koran. That sounds so shallow but, really, how is that really that much different than a believer's progress?

People say that Allah makes conversion to Islam easy for a person, and He convinces them of the Koran's truth little by little. That, to me, shows an assumption that not everyone is on the same spot on the path to completely and immediately submitting to God, even if that's what's in their heart and that's what their intention is. So, I assume a convert who says and genuinely believes that yes, this is the word of God, literally and forevermore, they're still not going to be immediately submitting perfectly. It's a process. Does that make sense?

I also take the various scriptures with various, hmm. Seriousness, I suppose. That doesn't sound right, but I can't think of a better word. I read Eastern texts, or myths from cultures I'm not too familiar with, mostly for literature / interest. Sometimes I glean spiritual insight from them, but sometimes I'm totally and completely lost. When I tried to read Celtic mythology, like the original stories, I just couldn't get it at.all. Same thing with the REAL Roman myths (i.e. not the ones translated for a modern audience but the word-for-word translations), or the Bhagavad Vita. I was just missing out on SO much because I wasn't from the culture they were written in. They were interesting but it didn't really hold MY interest.

But since I grew up with the Bible and the Koran is very similar to it (Abrahamic religions and all that) I 'get' them much more. I'm not a Christian because I don't believe Jesus was God; I'm not Jewish or Muslim because I don't believe in circumcision and I wouldn't want to have a divided faith family - my husband wouldn't celebrate or practice with us, and I think that would cause a lot of tension. But I suppose I consider myself "Abrahamic" so I sort of claim the literature of all three as "my" scriptures. Not 100% completely, but sort of, like Christians kept the Old Testament in the Bible. They may not follow it to the letter, but it's still a part of their faith.
post #12 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
I wonder if perhaps what Henny Penny meant was what you have already said - that if you take the scriptures for what they claim to be, they would not all be compatible. Another question that would come to my mind with this approach is that religious works generally have a kind of internal consistency or system, so the techings/observations in them are connected. So, some might argue, to take the wisdom of the Old Testament but ignore the Law would be missing the point - the two things are connected. Using that method it might be impossible to get the main point of Islam for example - submission to God. If you set yourself up as the arbitrator of what is useful in the Koran, for example, that is the opposite of submission.

On the other hand, if you don't think those books are what they claim to be, then you would be free to take the bits you like, or read them as literature or historical/anthropological documents.

I think the danger with taking spiritual writings in bits and pieces though, is that it becomes very easy only to take what appeals to us and leave out what we don't like/connect with easily. The idea of a spiritual discipline is lost, and that is something which every religion places value on.

All that being said, of course atheists can read religious texts. Any person who wants to read the literature of a people seriously needs to be familiar with their religious texts.

yes, that's exactly my point.
post #13 of 48
ChampagneBlossom -

how would that differ from learning from any culture? couldn't we all say we could learn a thing or to from just about anyone in this world - past or present? I dont think anyone here would argue with that one.

But you DO miss the point of the texts and why they were created if you don't apply the law, commands AND spirit of it. you can't dissect the spirit from the law, which is so commonly said. The spirit and the law are one. the law points to the spirit, and the law is kept through the spirit. you cannot divide them and glean anything remotely close to what was intended by the writer.

out of interest in culture I too read other culture's texts and stories. I'm very interested in them (don't like to stick my head in the sand). but I don't claim them as mine. learning something of value from them isn't the same as making them yours if that makes sense.
post #14 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
But you DO miss the point of the texts and why they were created if you don't apply the law, commands AND spirit of it. you can't dissect the spirit from the law, which is so commonly said. The spirit and the law are one. the law points to the spirit, and the law is kept through the spirit. you cannot divide them and glean anything remotely close to what was intended by the writer.

So then, why bother "keeping" the Old Testament in the Christian Bible? I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to find out your take on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
out of interest in culture I too read other culture's texts and stories. I'm very interested in them (don't like to stick my head in the sand). but I don't claim them as mine. learning something of value from them isn't the same as making them yours if that makes sense.
That's why I amended my first "I claim them all" comment and then said that I "only" claim the Abrahamic texts, while still being interested in the rest.

I know it's still not what you mean but to me it makes more sense that way.
post #15 of 48
ack! I just wrote a post and then lost it!!!

ok basically what I said is -

the new testament isn't anything with out the old. The new references the old and it would be impossible to understand any of the context of the new without the old. like popping open any book and reading starting half way through it. (obviously jewish people would disagree with me... but that's an entirely different topic) It is the same God, same basis, same religious starting... so it's more than relevant. I read both tests equally.
post #16 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post

But you DO miss the point of the texts and why they were created if you don't apply the law, commands AND spirit of it. you can't dissect the spirit from the law, which is so commonly said. The spirit and the law are one. the law points to the spirit, and the law is kept through the spirit. you cannot divide them and glean anything remotely close to what was intended by the writer.

out of interest in culture I too read other culture's texts and stories. I'm very interested in them (don't like to stick my head in the sand). but I don't claim them as mine. learning something of value from them isn't the same as making them yours if that makes sense.

I think we need to be careful about claiming what someone else's spirituality can or cannot encompass. This approach may not work for you personally based on your understanding of the texts but it may be perfectly clear for someone with a different interpretation or view. The multitude of interpretations of religious texts by thoughtful, devout people clearly indicates that the texts can and do hold different meanings and that the spirit and the law can be interpreted differently even among people of the same faith.

Our UU church has been hosting an interfaith understanding program recently and many of our Sunday speakers have been people of differing faiths talking about their spirituality and their beliefs and how they intersect with other faiths and specifically with the 7 UU principles.

Last week's speaker was the most amazing devout Muslim author/journalist/film maker who is passionate about interfaith understanding. She spoke of one of her trips to the Holy Land with a United Church of Canada minister and his wife, a Jewish friend and woman who considered herself a nonbeliever. She spoke of how amazing the experience was, how she could see so clearly the interconnectedness of their diverse spiritual paths. I wish I could remember her exact words but they were something to the effect of imagine if instead of using religion to divide, we could use these texts as parts of a puzzle which weave together the messages of peace and love in a blanket that encompasses us all. It was truly beautiful.
post #17 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
ack! I just wrote a post and then lost it!!!

ok basically what I said is -

the new testament isn't anything with out the old. The new references the old and it would be impossible to understand any of the context of the new without the old. like popping open any book and reading starting half way through it. (obviously jewish people would disagree with me... but that's an entirely different topic) It is the same God, same basis, same religious starting... so it's more than relevant. I read both tests equally.
Here's the Jew to disagree .

Obviously, yes, we think that the Torah (OT to Christians) is complete enough. However, what I want to disagree with is about the Christian New Testament needing to be read in the context of the Torah. Christianity has come so far from the Torah that aside from a couple references to lineage, the New Testament has nothing to do with the Torah, and in it purpose and spirit, directly contradicts the Torah. And, of course, when a Christian is in doubt over whether to believe the OT or the NT, the NT wins out.

So call me offensive, but I don't think Christians can claim the OT as their own, regardless of how their bibles are printed. As part of their library of books? Sure. As something to learn from, like the Q'ran and the Mahabharata? Sure. But theirs, like the NT? Nope. I think the NT stands on its own enough to not need the Torah any more.
post #18 of 48
when understanding reilgious texts we can pull out what we want. put in what we want. change it to mean what we think it should. we can try to find unique ways of applying it to our lives... but the is secondary to the purpose of the texts. but the writer/author has a certain intent when writing and THAT is what the writer is trying to express.

we can of course pull cultural meaning from it. we can see historical context in it. we can find lots of spiritual, ethical and moral gems or wisdom in it... but that isn't the purpose of the writer. The text from the writer's standpoint has a purpose, meaning and intent to it. trying to understand that is where you begin to get real comprehension of the texts. if you choose to use it otherwise you miss that concept.

and what you mean by being "careful about claiming what someone else's spirituality can or cannot emcompass "- I didn't say anything of the sort, so I can't really reply to it.

every human being has an "interconnected" path. we are all human beings on earth... so that's a given. we have things in common with even those polar opposite to us in countries we don't even know exist. but it still doesn't change that the author or a text had a purpose in writing it.
post #19 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate View Post
Here's the Jew to disagree .

Obviously, yes, we think that the Torah (OT to Christians) is complete enough. However, what I want to disagree with is about the Christian New Testament needing to be read in the context of the Torah. Christianity has come so far from the Torah that aside from a couple references to lineage, the New Testament has nothing to do with the Torah, and in it purpose and spirit, directly contradicts the Torah. And, of course, when a Christian is in doubt over whether to believe the OT or the NT, the NT wins out.

So call me offensive, but I don't think Christians can claim the OT as their own, regardless of how their bibles are printed. As part of their library of books? Sure. As something to learn from, like the Q'ran and the Mahabharata? Sure. But theirs, like the NT? Nope. I think the NT stands on its own enough to not need the Torah any more.
well as I said, I knew you'd disagree. and i get that...

but even if it is a lineage thing only (which I disagree with) - the new testament references the old constantly and it would not make sense with out the torah. (whether or not you agree with the NT at all doesn't matter... it matters to those who do find it a legit text)
post #20 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
well as I said, I knew you'd disagree. and i get that...

but even if it is a lineage thing only (which I disagree with) - the new testament references the old constantly and it would not make sense with out the torah. (whether or not you agree with the NT at all doesn't matter... it matters to those who do find it a legit text)
I agree that the NT references the Torah constantly. I grew up in a twice-weekly Christian bible study and have read through the Torah and NT many times.

I'm going to draw a parallel.

I love the Ramayana. I enjoy reading it and I think it has many great things to say about the nature of relationships and human ideals. But when it contradicts the Torah, I follow the Torah. Therefore the Torah is mine and the Ramayana is not.

You love the OT. You enjoy reading it and think it has many great things to say about the history of your people and about G-d. But when it contradicts the NT, you follow the NT (that's why you don't keep kosher or practice family purity laws). Therefore, I think the NT is yours and the OT is not.

I understand including it with the NT in your copies of the bible for understanding and as a reference, but to claim the kind of ownership of the text that is being spoken of in the posts above this? That's like me trying to claim ownership of the Q'ran because it's essential for my understanding of G-d even though I don't follow its laws or anything in it.

Like you said, a text can be enlightening, but there's a difference between that and "making a text yours."

One more edit, for clarity's sake. Laura, I'm referencing when you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
But you DO miss the point of the texts and why they were created if you don't apply the law, commands AND spirit of it. you can't dissect the spirit from the law, which is so commonly said. The spirit and the law are one. the law points to the spirit, and the law is kept through the spirit. you cannot divide them and glean anything remotely close to what was intended by the writer.
I completely agree with this - and it's why I think Christians have ownership of the NT, but not the Torah.
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