scripture for the unreligious? - Page 3

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

thanks sme, good points. i think for now i'll continue on with my hebrew-english tanakh, which is blowing the mind of someone who has read the "same" stuff in multiple translations of the christian bible. it's pretty amazing. but when i'm ready for the *next* thing, i wondered what other mamas with a similar perspective have found enlightening, so i appreciate the many suggestions on this thread!

i somewhat envy you for having converted before becoming a mother. i've come to the conclusion over the past week or so that, while i could whole-heartedly convert to judaism, i don't feel right making that choice for my entire family, and i'm experiencing some feelings of loss. i'm not saying there would be anything easy about it, but there is something "simple" about having a clear religious identity, shared history and highly developed holidays, rituals and traditions for every aspect of every stage of life. like, here it is, all laid out. and of course the lack of prescribed "beliefs" appeals to me very much too! consistent, defined practices + respect for the mystery and unknowableness of god = super awesome. . . .

I can totally understand that. I have difficulty, though, because I'm much less observant than I want to be. DH is not Jewish (I converted after marriage, before kids), and has no wish to be. He's perfectly happy with me being observant as long as it doesn't enforce restrictions upon him - which means no kosher kitchen (though I cook kosher meat and don't cook meat and milk together when I cook) and I had to have a Reform conversion, as opposed to the Orthodox conversion I wanted.

So I know where you're coming from. It's tough, especially because Judaism is a family religion. We're doing all we can - and honestly, that's all you can do. If you're called to Judaism, maybe talk to a Reform rabbi. He may have suggestions for you and your family. I'm hoping that maybe later on, as our marriage develops and grows, DH will want to become more religious - but for now I wait and pray.

[doubledutch]

champagne, i meant, i take what's not mine and make it mine, or use it for my purposes. i'm sorry if the word annoyed you. i certainly wasn't speaking for anyone else but myself. it comes around to the same underlyling issue, though, that caused me to post this thread, which is: does the absense of an established religion mean i'm free to partake of everything that the world has to offer, spiritually speaking, or does it mean that really none of that is for me? so far, nobody in our shoes has come along and said, "i find a problem with learning from all sources and taking practices from any tradition," which i'm glad to see. i guess.

[doubledutch]

sme (not sure why i insist on calling you sme, when i know your name is sara - guess i just love peter pan!) . . . thanks! actually, my only local option is reform, and moving for a halakhic conversion is also not an option, and maybe not one that i would take even if it were, since so much about reform hits the nail on the head for me. what i'm struggling with is the idea that, while my boys may be completely accepted 99% of the time, i'm thinking of things like . . . what happens when they want to get married? and they've had a reform conversion and aren't circumcised? or when they grow up and decide to get a halakhic conversion and hate me, lol, for not thinking ahead and doing it when they were little?!

i actually *really* like the idea of being observant. since i'm vegetarian, it wouldn't be that hard to have a kosher kitchen, which i would want because, regardless of whether i believe it's required or not, it would be nice for anyone to feel comfortable eating in my home. (even though i would still eat at, say, my parents' homes - so i would have a kosher kitchen but not a kosher tummy!) i have mezuzah cases (not scrolls yet, just cases) for my front and back door. we were doing a friday night shabbat thing for a couple of months (not worrying about saturday yet, baby steps) and i was learning so much, and loving it. dh was on board. i just . . . i actually started suspecting that my motivation was somewhat selfish. i don't question that judaism is really, truly home for you so please don't take it that way - i only felt like that for myself, like i was trying to weasel my was into something that i've always loved and admired but that i'm really an outsider, and that's not going to change. trying.not.to.cry.

[ChampagneBlossom]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

champagne, i meant, i take what's not mine and make it mine, or use it for my purposes. i'm sorry if the word annoyed you. i certainly wasn't speaking for anyone else but myself. it comes around to the same underlyling issue, though, that caused me to post this thread, which is: does the absense of an established religion mean i'm free to partake of everything that the world has to offer, spiritually speaking, or does it mean that really none of that is for me? so far, nobody in our shoes has come along and said, "i find a problem with learning from all sources and taking practices from any tradition," which i'm glad to see. i guess.

Oh man, I was all confused as to why you thought I was offended... I did the double quote and only replied to one! I was going to say that I agreed with your comment.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

sme (not sure why i insist on calling you sme, when i know your name is sara - guess i just love peter pan!) . . . thanks! actually, my only local option is reform, and moving for a halakhic conversion is also not an option, and maybe not one that i would take even if it were, since so much about reform hits the nail on the head for me. what i'm struggling with is the idea that, while my boys may be completely accepted 99% of the time, i'm thinking of things like . . . what happens when they want to get married? and they've had a reform conversion and aren't circumcised? or when they grow up and decide to get a halakhic conversion and hate me, lol, for not thinking ahead and doing it when they were little?!

i actually *really* like the idea of being observant. since i'm vegetarian, it wouldn't be that hard to have a kosher kitchen, which i would want because, regardless of whether i believe it's required or not, it would be nice for anyone to feel comfortable eating in my home. (even though i would still eat at, say, my parents' homes - so i would have a kosher kitchen but not a kosher tummy!) i have mezuzah cases (not scrolls yet, just cases) for my front and back door. we were doing a friday night shabbat thing for a couple of months (not worrying about saturday yet, baby steps) and i was learning so much, and loving it. dh was on board. i just . . . i actually started suspecting that my motivation was somewhat selfish. i don't question that judaism is really, truly home for you so please don't take it that way - i only felt like that for myself, like i was trying to weasel my was into something that i've always loved and admired but that i'm really an outsider, and that's not going to change. trying.not.to.cry.

Those are all questions that even though I converted, I have to face as well. My DS and I are not considered Jewish by many people, and even if we were to keep a perfectly kosher home, many people wouldn't feel comfortable eating at our house because to them, we're we're not Orthodox and there's no guarantee to them that we're doing it correctly enough for their standards.

It's tough with Judaism, unlike many other religions, because it's so cultural. Not only are you embracing religious tenets, but you're learning a new way of living, a new philosophy of life, a way of looking at things, a language (or maybe two, if your community is very elderly and Ashkenazic and smatters Yiddish into everything). It WILL change, though, if you keep at it. Someday, when you feel like you still know nothing, you'll meet someone who knows even less than you, and you'll : because that's when you'll be able to really see how much you DO know. Through teaching, we learn.

When it comes to your kids - just remember. NOBODY is as qualified to make decisions for your children as you are (except, of course, when they are old enough to make their own decisions). If your DH is on board, go for it. It's the only way to know. And it's not like you have to (or even could) decide tomorrow - my conversion process took over a year of exploring my spirituality with a rabbi, learning about Judaism, and living the cycle of the seasons in a Jewish way - in the community.

Don't despair that you won't fit in. If it's something you really love and feel like you want to be a part of it, throw yourself in like a child does - no shame, no self-consciousness - only to learn and grow.

[marimara]

Ok, I'm going to post even though I didn't read what everyone else wrote. I skimmed it. I don't identify with any main "religion". I read scripture, so to speak. I take what speaks to me. Bottom line. I like Desiderata http://www.fleurdelis.com/desiderata.htm

It's not a self identified religious piece, that I know of, though he does use the word "God", which I don't have any particular definition for. But as far as 'scripture' written in the mind of religion, I don't have any qualms about reading it and taking it to heart. I don't agree that you have to be a member of that particular religion to fully understand or to have it affect you. Esp. in regards to Christian writings-as far as I know, Jesus had an open door policy!

[Bluegoat]

Hmm, I quoted the wrong thing, so I will just leave it out.

Yes, all I meant was that a person who felt the need for a ritual observance, but felt he was missing one, might find it ineffective to simply choose a few that seemed nice and use them, because the would not be connected to his larger experience of ritual or to his beliefs.

He or she would have to find or create rituals that actually connected with personal beliefs.

People who convert seem to sometimes find the rituals difficult if they are very alien to their personal history and experience, for example. Usually the way they "access" those rituals is in how the ritual connects to their new belief.

On the other side, many people who have left a childhood religion still find comfort in those rituals, because they connect with their experience although not their belief.

Idealy, a ritual must connect with belief to be really meaningful, and one hopes that the experiential component developes over time.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

in what way am i deciding what is true (and what is not) any more than anyone else?

i don't deny the value of obedience and discipline. my struggle is to learn what god asks of me, as a believer who is not a jew, not a christian, not a muslim, and to do that.

also, i don't develop rituals randomly. it would probably be more accurate to say i hijack them, what few rituals and traditions my family has, anyway. it may seem meaningless to you, but if it means something to me, if it creates that connection and helps me and my family understand life and our place in the world - well?

First, my comments weren't personal.

The difference in what I think you asking relates to authority.

Ultimatly, we all have to give assent to our beliefs. Members of an organized religion do as well, they are the ones that decide that they think what, say, scientology says, is true.

Organized religion comes as a package though. If you accept the claim to authority that the religion has, to some extent you accept the whole system. An individual religious seeker has to develop the system himself, so ultimately must decide what is reasonable, and moral, and what rings true.

So the individulal answeres to internal requirements - reason, for example, as found within himself. This is true even when the person recognizes that Truth exists outside himself, and that is what he is being held to. He still has the responsibility to recognize it as best he can. There isn't any better way to do this if the person doesn't accept any of the claims to authority he has been exposed to, so it's not a moral failing (unless he is being dishonest with himself), it's just the nature of the circumstances he finds himself in.

The member of organized religion usually must recognize an outside authority for Truth to some extent. So, for example, a Roman Catholic might say, I don't understand why I am not supposed to use birth control - it doesn't make sense and it is impractical. But, because he accepts that the Church has authority on this matter, he would follow the rule anyway.

One big disadvantage of this would be a tendency to confuse the nature of the temporal authority with Truth itself, or especially it's individual representatives with Truth. One advantage is it allows for the fruits of obedience in a way that an individual spiritual practice can't.