No Divorce? - Page 2

[cappuccinosmom]

And, in their view, the bible is also very clear about the husband's role as head of household. And that trumps all.

that's very sad.

I believe in headship but to make it the be all and end all, and to use it as an excuse for sin is plainly unBiblical.

[Freud]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

The Roman Catholic Church does not believe in divorce. THe reason is related to their theology of marriage.

They believe that marriage, like Baptism, Holy Orders etc. are Sacraments. That is, ther is a certain outward sign, performed at God's command, and certian inward spiritual things occur, objectively by God. So in Baptism, the sign is water, and the inward part is that the person is grafted into the body of Christ, and is forgiven for both original sin and their own sins. Those things are accomplished by the work of God.

In marraige, the spiritual part is that the man and woman become "one flesh." They are considered to be, in a real way, one organism.

The important point with all of these is the change is considered to be permanent. A person cannot be unbaptized, a priest cannot be unpriested, and a marriage cannot be dissolved.

You could compare it to, say, a medical doctor. An MD who is being disciplined for bad doctoring loses his license to practice, not his status as MD. Unless he fraudulently received that degree, it can't be taken away.

So for Roman Catholics, a marriage may be annulled, but you can't divorce. Annulment means the marriage was somehow not real from the beginning. Maybe the woman was already married to someone else. Maybe the man didn't mean it when he said he would love and cherish his wife.

There is a lot of disagreement over how easy annulments are to get in the US at the moment. There has been some indication by the Pope that they may become more difficult to get.

Of course, a couple may separate if necessary for some serious reason, even if they can't get an annulment, but in that case they can't remarry.

Really? My mother was married in the Catholic Church and had that marriage subsequently annulled due to abuse. She remarried (my father) in the Catholic Church (the same church and pastor who presided at her first marriage and took her through the annulment process).

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Freud

Really? My mother was married in the Catholic Church and had that marriage subsequently annulled due to abuse. She remarried (my father) in the Catholic Church (the same church and pastor who presided at her first marriage and took her through the annulment process).

Yes, as I said, if the marriage is annulled then the person can remarry, since it's as if it was her first marriage. But no divorce.

[Freud]

Ahh I see what you're saying. I must have misread it the first time.

[DahliaRW]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I agree that Christians who believe in no divorce ever are extremely rare. It's simply not Biblical; divorce is explicitly allowed in at least two circumstances (adultery and desertion/religious persecution by a non-Christian partner).

The answer to your question may be the distinction between separation and divorce, though. It's possible to leave an abusive husband without divorcing him; and as a Christian who takes marriage very very seriously, that's probably what I'd do in a situation which the Bible didn't explicitly say was grounds for divorce.

ITA. I know a family where the husband became abusive (it was mild, thank goodness). The wife brought it before the elders, and she seperated from him (he actually moved out). The elders worked with him, he went to counseling, etc, and they eventually reunited and as far as I know the abuse ceased. But in that case the husband TRULY loved the wife and wanted to change. If that's not the case, I have no problem with the wife seperating for her own safety (or the safety of her children).

I also know other families where adultery occurred, and the spouse who did not commit adultery chose to try to work out their marriage and stay in it. It was a choice, and obviously in that case the spouse who cheated repented and wanted to work things out as well. In other cases they did divorce, and I see nothing wrong with that.

I also think that the Bible is clear in that if your spouse wants a divorce and cannot be persuaded otherwise it is ok for you to consent to one (for whatever reason). But then the whole remarriage thing gets really muddy.

I do not believe the theology that in the case of abuse or whatever the wife should submit more. That is, IMO, NOT what the Bible teaches in any way shape or form.

[tricia80]

I am a conservate Mennonite. I do not believe in divorce. My husband beat me.

I am not divorced. We are SEPERATED. Have been since I fled on a greyhound bus. Divorce and Remarriage are not allowed. Bible states seperation is ok but divorce is a no no.

My husband was not fulfilling his duties by beating on us. The man is supposed to love his wife as Jesus loves the Church. Jesus would never hurt his church so therefore in my opinion any man who proclaims to be Christian who beats his wife is a hypocrite.

There are many professing Christians who do things the Bible states not to. Its not my place to judge them. That is God's job.

[cappuccinosmom]

Tricia, I'm curious how your church dealt with the situation, and responded to your situation? Were they supportive of you and disciplinary towards him?

[choli]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

The Roman Catholic Church does not believe in divorce. THe reason is related to their theology of marriage.

They believe that marriage, like Baptism, Holy Orders etc. are Sacraments. That is, ther is a certain outward sign, performed at God's command, and certian inward spiritual things occur, objectively by God. So in Baptism, the sign is water, and the inward part is that the person is grafted into the body of Christ, and is forgiven for both original sin and their own sins. Those things are accomplished by the work of God.

In marraige, the spiritual part is that the man and woman become "one flesh." They are considered to be, in a real way, one organism.

The important point with all of these is the change is considered to be permanent. A person cannot be unbaptized, a priest cannot be unpriested, and a marriage cannot be dissolved.

You could compare it to, say, a medical doctor. An MD who is being disciplined for bad doctoring loses his license to practice, not his status as MD. Unless he fraudulently received that degree, it can't be taken away.

So for Roman Catholics, a marriage may be annulled, but you can't divorce. Annulment means the marriage was somehow not real from the beginning. Maybe the woman was already married to someone else. Maybe the man didn't mean it when he said he would love and cherish his wife.

There is a lot of disagreement over how easy annulments are to get in the US at the moment. There has been some indication by the Pope that they may become more difficult to get.

Of course, a couple may separate if necessary for some serious reason, even if they can't get an annulment, but in that case they can't remarry.

I believe that Roman Catholics CAN divorce, they just can't remarry. Divorce is a civil matter, not a religious one, and so has no effect on the status of a religous marriage. You may be divorced legally, but still married in the eyes of the church.

[lilyka]

tricia80 - what if your husband forces a divorce? where does that leave you (theoretically) on a spiritual level? granted no one can force you to remarry but technically you would be divorced in every definition of the word.

Please don't get me wrong. I admire you for walking this difficult road. I am just curious what happens if your husbands decides he doesn't care if you are dicorced.

and your dd is so lovely I love that picture of her in your sig.

[tricia80]

If my husband forces a divorce then if it is granted I would be divorced but it would not be me (The Christian) who went through with it. It would be him (The non christian) and that would be his sin to deal with. Now that still means no matter what I am not to remarry.. So yes at 28 yrs old until the day my husband dies I will be alone but I have a marriage to Jesus that is much better than any man made one could ever be.

My church at this points supports my decision to stay seperated until he would become a Christian. Now if he ever decided to become a Christian and want us back he would have to do major changes. Counseling through the ministry and he would basically have to prove himself not only to me, the church but also to God. Also I would pray on whether it is the best decision. I have a dd to protect.

As I said you cannot claim to be a Christian and do unchristian things. That is being a hypocrite. It says in the bible the man shall love his wife as Christ loves the Church.

My church is very supportive of my dd and I. They don't expect me to take her father to court for C/S and do everything in their power to help us. I.E. reduced or free childcare so I can work, monetary assistance if we are struggling, food if we need it d/t money issues, lots of shoulders to cry on, and tons of prayers.

Our church is Anabaptist and we believe in taking care of each other. I have never felt ostricized or anything and felt very welcomed even though I am the ONLY seperated single mom there. Christians love everyone including the unlovable. I hope my husband does come back to the Lord one day but until that day I have a dd to grow into a young woman and hopefully she will see my sacrifice and hopefully will help her pick a nice Christian man when its her time to marry.

Lily - thank you. I really like that picture too.

Hope that made sense.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by choli

I believe that Roman Catholics CAN divorce, they just can't remarry. Divorce is a civil matter, not a religious one, and so has no effect on the status of a religous marriage. You may be divorced legally, but still married in the eyes of the church.

Yes, civil divorce, I believe, is ok for legal reasons if needed, but they are still considered married from a religious point of view. But there is a difference between a civil divorce and a "religious" divorce, which is allowed in many churches, at least under certain circumstances.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by tricia80

If my husband forces a divorce then if it is granted I would be divorced but it would not be me (The Christian) who went through with it. It would be him (The non christian) and that would be his sin to deal with. Now that still means no matter what I am not to remarry.. So yes at 28 yrs old until the day my husband dies I will be alone but I have a marriage to Jesus that is much better than any man made one could ever be.

My church at this points supports my decision to stay seperated until he would become a Christian. Now if he ever decided to become a Christian and want us back he would have to do major changes. Counseling through the ministry and he would basically have to prove himself not only to me, the church but also to God. Also I would pray on whether it is the best decision. I have a dd to protect.

As I said you cannot claim to be a Christian and do unchristian things. That is being a hypocrite. It says in the bible the man shall love his wife as Christ loves the Church.

My church is very supportive of my dd and I. They don't expect me to take her father to court for C/S and do everything in their power to help us. I.E. reduced or free childcare so I can work, monetary assistance if we are struggling, food if we need it d/t money issues, lots of shoulders to cry on, and tons of prayers.

Our church is Anabaptist and we believe in taking care of each other. I have never felt ostricized or anything and felt very welcomed even though I am the ONLY seperated single mom there. Christians love everyone including the unlovable. I hope my husband does come back to the Lord one day but until that day I have a dd to grow into a young woman and hopefully she will see my sacrifice and hopefully will help her pick a nice Christian man when its her time to marry.

Lily - thank you. I really like that picture too.

Hope that made sense.

It's great that they are so supportive. I wish that all communities remembered how to support each other directly.

I'm just being curious here, but what would your church say about a civil divorce, if it seemed to become necessary? I realize of course you would still be ethically/religiously married.

[tricia80]

Divorce is not necessary... There are always ways around things... We are seperated... I have legal custody...

Could you give me more of an example?

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by tricia80

Divorce is not necessary... There are always ways around things... We are seperated... I have legal custody...

Could you give me more of an example?

Well, the best one I can think of is I had an aunt who never divorced her husband, but when it came time to retire from her job, he was going to be able to claim a part of her retirement salary, and since she was looking at buying a small home, he could conceivably claim to be entitled to a portion of that, and issues relating to his rights to the estate if she died. So she pursued a civil divorce for those reasons. They hd been separated for about 25 years at that point.

[holyhelianthus]

Tricia- I am in awe of your faith and resilience!

[tricia80]

If you have a legal seperation agreement that entitles you to not have to share anything. Also you can have papers drawn up that is not a divorce i cannot remember what its called.. Its the same thing i am going to start to do now. I am leaving my dd to another family not her dad when I die as well..

[cappuccinosmom]

Tricia

I am *so* glad to hear how supportive your church is. : That is *awesome*!

[tricia80]

Mag and Capp Thank you for the support... it is a daily struggle but with God I can do anything.. I truly believe anyone can....