Are those leashes/harnesses for kids demeaning? - Page 10

[Super Glue Mommy]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

I thought you were. But notice that it was offered up as something to say to a person who "gave her crap" about using a harness. Not as something that applies to all stroller use.

Answering disrespect with disrespect isn't the best thing, but I know how it is to be a bit anxious that someone will say something cruel. There's a tendency to come up with the most cutting response possible.

And the cutting response often has nothing to do with how one feels about a subject in general.

Yes I absolutely did notice it. Thats why I said this:

I totally understand where the defense is coming from, but just suggesting one to realize that saying these things might also be hurtful to those who aren't bashing harnesses. As Katie Byron wisely states: The first act of war is defense

I admit to being very close minded to harnesses previously. I am a different person today then a year ago. I realize that all the women here who are bashing harnesses may one day feel differently. It wont be because I told them their way is wrong though

I think I was bein confusing because I was addressing Guild, but thanking you again for understanding what I was saying in the same thread

[Super Glue Mommy]

When people say things to me in real life such as "Is he comfortable in that thing" (sling)
Me: Yes very. Thats why he is sleeping. Just 10 minutes ago he can crawling high speed to me and put his arms up because he was excited to get in it when he saw me putting it on.


Another sling comment: He looks uncomfortable.
Me: No he's not.
or
Me: Oh, he does? (walk away)
or
Me: Okay. (talk to someone else)
..sometimes they interupt me to tell me again.
Me: Thank you. (continue talking to someone else)


I do understand why one would want to use a flippant remark in those situations though! I just say for me personally I never found it particularly useful, other then to have a "funny joke" to tell my like minded friends later sometimes I say to my friends "I should have told that lady (insert flippant remark here) and it feels just as good, if not better, then had I actually said it to the person. I get anxiety easily though, so I think using remarks like that in person would also make me feel unsettled, aside from just not being useful in my life.

[Aubergine68]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Force the child to hold their, or a nursemaid's, hand at all times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursemaid%27s_elbow

My middle child had an episode of nursemaid's elbow just from playing the "hold his hands and swing them over the puddle" It was excruciating for him and for me as mama to have to sit with him, in pain, in waiting rooms and watch while the dr. snapped his elbow back in place (it was Sunday and we had to go through a couple of waiting rooms before we found someone comfortable with performing this procedure on a toddler.)

We have been VERY careful with handholding ever since. I can totally see how a toddler suddenly trying to pull away from an adult's hand could wind up with nursemaid's elbow.

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by Draupadi

Leashes and harnesses for children are not new. The Victorians used to use them. The harnesses/leashes were sewn into the clothes.
Keeping your child safe by some sort of restraint is common in many cultures. That's what babywearing is, isn't it? We wear mei tais, slings, wraps, etc. Why is that different? Our child is being restrained. Although we don't like to think of it in that way, that's what it is.
Ultimately, these things were made to keep our children safe. Where is the harm in that?

Well, the victorians are definately not my rolemodels!

I have lived in Africa, never one time saw a mother with her child "tethered" in any way and doubt that there is a history of "tethering" there at all.
I have lived in Hawaii and truely never saw a child "tethered" there either and also doubt there was ever a tethering trend there.
When in Englad and France and Holland I never saw any children on leads, either.
Actually went to a festival yesterday that was huge....no tethered children. Lots and lots of kids having a good time, but none on leashes!

I'm just not buying it that this a normal thing that has it's accepted place in society.

[sisteeesmama]

[QUOTE=LilyGrace;13651876] I love children. I adore them, and agree that they need to be given the independence they are ready for.

By restricting our choices, I'm not respecting the child.
QUOTE]

Well, I think we all love our children, I mean, seriously. And to that end, love children in general.

But I almost take offense to the idea that not doing everything and going everywhere at every stage of my child's life is disrespectful to her. Infact, I feel it is the ultimate of respect for her, her needs and her abilities!

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

When people say things to me in real life such as "Is he comfortable in that thing" (sling)
Me: Yes very. Thats why he is sleeping. Just 10 minutes ago he can crawling high speed to me and put his arms up because he was excited to get in it when he saw me putting it on.


Another sling comment: He looks uncomfortable.
Me: No he's not.
or
Me: Oh, he does? (walk away)
or
Me: Okay. (talk to someone else)
..sometimes they interupt me to tell me again.
Me: Thank you. (continue talking to someone else)


I do understand why one would want to use a flippant remark in those situations though! I just say for me personally I never found it particularly useful, other then to have a "funny joke" to tell my like minded friends later sometimes I say to my friends "I should have told that lady (insert flippant remark here) and it feels just as good, if not better, then had I actually said it to the person. I get anxiety easily though, so I think using remarks like that in person would also make me feel unsettled, aside from just not being useful in my life.

Ye-eeesss.... but "giving crap", to me, isn't that sort of remark.

To continue your sling example, it'd be things like "Ugh, how can he breath in that? That looks SOOO uncomfortable, I'd never do that to MY child."

Or in the harness case,
"Those things are just WRONG. You're demeaning your child!"

Or, more likely, given the examples in the "worst/stupidest" thread in Parenting, the person would talk to the air "There's another one of those lazy parents. Glad I never felt the need to demean MY child like that."

[LuxPerpetua]

I have a couple of questions:

I read the analogy about comparing harnesses to washing mouths with soap. To be honest, I don't understand the comparison. Can someone who holds this idea please elaborate for clarification? To me, washing a mouth with soap is 1) a form of punishment, and 2) done against the child's will. If a child does not mind using a harness, how is this comparable? Also, if the argument is that using leashes is arcane the same way that washing a mouth out with soap is arcane, then this likewise seems inapplicable because modern life (with it's traffic, congested streets, fast cars, etc.) is acutely more dangerous than life even a hundred years ago. It seems to me, then, that there would be a greater need for restraining devices in modern life than previously, as is apparent by the number of strollers, car seats, and even slings that one sees each day. So far, I agree with the idea that harnesses can provide a great deal more freedom than other restraining devices in situations in which safety is in jeopardy.

Also, I'm confused why people feel that leashing is demeaning. Is it simply because dogs are leashed? Would you feel the same way if leashes were never used for animals? I'm asking simply because I don't understand the ideology behind these absolutist views. If you could elaborate more on WHY you feel these are demeaning, that would help a great deal in being able to understand your point of view.

As I said, I'm merely trying to understand this side of the argument more fully.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

Well, the victorians are definately not my rolemodels!

I have lived in Africa, never one time saw a mother with her child "tethered" in any way and doubt that there is a history of "tethering" there at all.

How much traffic?

And there is a history there of slinging children when doing tasks that need close attention. And of having some people watch the children while others do other tasks.

Yep, it is better to have a community of friends and family who can be trusted to do things the same way as you (or close enough not to worry), but I don't see why you're criticizing everyone who doesn't have that.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Ye-eeesss.... but "giving crap", to me, isn't that sort of remark.

To continue your sling example, it'd be things like "Ugh, how can he breath in that? That looks SOOO uncomfortable, I'd never do that to MY child."

Or in the harness case,
"Those things are just WRONG. You're demeaning your child!"

Or, more likely, given the examples in the "worst/stupidest" thread in Parenting, the person would talk to the air "There's another one of those lazy parents. Glad I never felt the need to demean MY child like that."

Them: "Ugh, how can he breath in that? That looks SOOO uncomfortable, I'd never do that to MY child."
Me: He's very comfortable, (if I feel like educating I may add)and being in a supported upright position actually helps their air flow more then other forms of toting baby around.

Them: "Those things are just WRONG. You're demeaning your child!"
Me: (waking away as child skips along gaily) of saying to child "do you prefer to wear your monkey back pack or ride in the stroller" child says backpack I say "Okay, I respect that"

Them: "There's another one of those lazy parents. Glad I never felt the need to demean MY child like that."
Me: (nothing. they aren't talking to me.)

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Since there seems to be a bit of "I never had to use them" boasting from the few people who disapprove of harnesses, can I ask if you fear that people will assume that a parent who uses a harness can't control their children?

I think it's a bit like the difference between child-proofing and saying "no" all the time.

I don't think it's boastful to have basic principles that you choose to uphold, lik not wanting to be a parent that leashes her child.




And I have not childproofed our house, and again I try not to say "no" unless it's really important and we haven't really run into one of those really important things yet, in the house anyway. I just show dd how to handle certain things, what to do, what not to do. No, it's not perfect, but in my outlook it's the ideal. We do have a "playroom" where its anything goes.

[Super Glue Mommy]

that works for you.

what works for other people is respecting their child's preferene to wear a monkey back pack.

I posted this in the other thread but I'll post it here too:

I am curious for those who say its demeaning, if your child said

"mom im not a baby! I dont want to go in the stroller.sling anymore! holding hands hurts my arms and makes my hand sweaty! Cant I PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE have one of those monkey back packs like that kid at the zoo had the other day?"

what would you do? what would you say? Would you say

"No I think they are deamning! No child of mine is going to wear a monkey backpack. Jsut wipe the sweat off on your jeans if you hand is sweaty. If you don't like the stroller then don't run off and you wouldnt have to ride in one!"

??


You are free to have your own outlook and ideal, but I don't think anyone who respects their child's wishes as someone whose ideal are '"less than"

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by LuxPerpetua

I have a couple of questions:

I read the analogy about comparing harnesses to washing mouths with soap. To be honest, I don't understand the comparison. Can someone who holds this idea please elaborate for clarification? To me, washing a mouth with soap is 1) a form of punishment, and 2) done against the child's will. If a child does not mind using a harness, how is this comparable? Also, if the argument is that using leashes is arcane the same way that washing a mouth out with soap is arcane, then this likewise seems inapplicable because modern life (with it's traffic, congested streets, fast cars, etc.) is acutely more dangerous than life even a hundred years ago. It seems to me, then, that there would be a greater need for restraining devices in modern life than previously, as is apparent by the number of strollers, car seats, and even slings that one sees each day. So far, I agree with the idea that harnesses can provide a great deal more freedom than other restraining devices in situations in which safety is in jeopardy.

Also, I'm confused why people feel that leashing is demeaning. Is it simply because dogs are leashed? Would you feel the same way if leashes were never used for animals? I'm asking simply because I don't understand the ideology behind these absolutist views. If you could elaborate more on WHY you feel these are demeaning, that would help a great deal in being able to understand your point of view.

As I said, I'm merely trying to understand this side of the argument more fully.

I was the one who talked about washing mouths out with soap and so forth and I wasn't really comparing that to leashing ones child, I was more saying this is a list of ridiculous things people do to children all the while thinking they are doing something right as a a parent, but none the less things I would not feel good about doing.

I can't say to what extent leashes being used for dogs has colored my view of them being used for children because I haven't lived in a world where they weren't used for dogs so my thoughts would be mere speculation.

And yes, unfortunately we do live in a much more complicated world today than that of people living only 100 years ago, but to me that does not mean I have get out there and try and keep up and force my young dd to try and keep up, too. It more to me means that I try and foster a peacful environment for her and a quieter day for her for right now, at this tender age, when staying close to home is a lovely prospect in her mind. I know one day staying close to home won't satisfy her like it does now.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I am okay staying home. I have no desire to "keep up" My daughter however, NEEDS to get out of the house. I have to go outside my comfort zone sometimes to meet that need for her. Thankfully she isn't a darter, but if she was, and she didnt like the stroller or sling (which she does) and she didnt want to hold my hand (which she does) but if those things were true and she said "mom why cant I just wear a monkey back pack like that kid at the zoo" then I would totally get her a monkey back pack so I could continue to meet HER need to get out of the house.

what would you suggest to a parent who has a DD like mine whose child is also a darter and WANTS to wear the monkey back pack? I cant see it as demeaning, only respectful.

[sisteeesmama]

While I do believe in CLParenting, I don't do everything my child wants simply because she wants it done. That would include not buying a monkey backpack simply because she saw one on another child and thought she wanted one.
She thinks she wants to drink wine out of the glass grandma drinks out of at dinner, but that doesn't mean I have to "respect" her wishes and say "go for it". When my dd is old enough to think she wants a cell phone and LOTS of other kids her age have one will I just jump on the bandwagon because she tells me to? Um, nope, not a chance, that will depend on her maturity level and what I think she is ready for. I'm the mom, I make the decision ultimately about what is going to be going on. To me there is a big difference between CLP and respecting your LOs needs and just doing whatever they want because they see some other kid with something and think it might be cool. That will not be the precedent in this house hold.

Now on the issue of "darting". I think my dd might actually be a darter. I do have to keep up with her pace if I choose to put her in a situation where there are lots of other people around etc. I mostly choose to hang out in our backyard or over at Grandma's house where the horses are because those are age appropriate safe places for us to be where she can explore her surroundings untethered. Grandma's house is in a forrest, there is a pond and a stream and lots of bluffs and I do have to be vigilant, but I don't think that is beyond my job as a mom.

Ultimately it just goes against my whole philosphy as a mom to leash my child. You won't convince me that it has it's place. Of course you are free to make your own choice for your family, I just don't have to agree that it's a good one.

[Draupadi]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

Well, the victorians are definately not my rolemodels!

I have lived in Africa, never one time saw a mother with her child "tethered" in any way and doubt that there is a history of "tethering" there at all.
I have lived in Hawaii and truely never saw a child "tethered" there either and also doubt there was ever a tethering trend there.
When in Englad and France and Holland I never saw any children on leads, either.
Actually went to a festival yesterday that was huge....no tethered children. Lots and lots of kids having a good time, but none on leashes!

I'm just not buying it that this a normal thing that has it's accepted place in society.

Never said the Victorians were role models, but they did sometimes have their children on leashes.

In your travels, did you see people wearing their babies in Bjorns, slings, mei tais, wraps, back packs, pouches, etc?
If you did, then the child was being restrained, right?

I sincerely don't get why people believe that harnesses are so bad. Most say because they "look bad". If a child is being kept safe then what is the big deal? Seriously. I personally could care less what anyone thought as long as my child is safe. When he is harnessed, he is moving around and exploring safely. There is more independence for a child in a harness than there is for one being worn.
And to repeat- I still wear my very large 2 year old. I have nothing against baby wearing since I still do it.
I hardly even use the harness (I've had it for almost a year and have probably used it all of 5 times) but you can be certain I'll be using it at the airport in 2 weeks so my son can move around but still be safe.

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

I am okay staying home. I have no desire to "keep up" My daughter however, NEEDS to get out of the house. I have to go outside my comfort zone sometimes to meet that need for her. Thankfully she isn't a darter, but if she was, and she didnt like the stroller or sling (which she does) and she didnt want to hold my hand (which she does) but if those things were true and she said "mom why cant I just wear a monkey back pack like that kid at the zoo" then I would totally get her a monkey back pack so I could continue to meet HER need to get out of the house.

what would you suggest to a parent who has a DD like mine whose child is also a darter and WANTS to wear the monkey back pack? I cant see it as demeaning, only respectful.

And are you implying that your daughter actually has a need to go to the zoo and stuff like that? Because I don't even think she would know what a zoo was if you hadn't introduced it to her.
Are you also saying that there are no safe, age appropriate places to be outside the house with your LO to fill her need of being out safely while maintaining a leashfree relationship with her?

[MonAmiBella]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

Well, the victorians are definately not my rolemodels!

I have lived in Africa, never one time saw a mother with her child "tethered" in any way and doubt that there is a history of "tethering" there at all.
I have lived in Hawaii and truely never saw a child "tethered" there either and also doubt there was ever a tethering trend there.
When in Englad and France and Holland I never saw any children on leads, either.
Actually went to a festival yesterday that was huge....no tethered children. Lots and lots of kids having a good time, but none on leashes!

I'm just not buying it that this a normal thing that has it's accepted place in society.

My husband is French and remembers being on a leash while his younger brother was in a pram. He's 34, BTW. My SIL has a leash for my nephew who's almost 3. I've seen many kids with them while we're n France.

[Super Glue Mommy]

no, my daughter has a need to get out of the house. doesnt matter where we go. she likes to go grocery shopping with me. she likes to go for car rides. she likes to go for a walk around the block. she just likes to ge OUT of the house.

my dd doesnt want to be "confined" now I dont use a leash with her because she is okay with allthe alternatives. We are not talking about letting child do something unhealthy (drink a bottle of wine) or have a "possession" we are talking about being open to use a harness in the same way we are open to using a sling or a stroller or holding hands.

It's not something that would be dangerous (drinking wine) or something that is solely to fit in (a cell phone because everyone else has one) its about WHICH form of SAFETY you will use that is respectful towards the child. It would be like if you were okay with your child having a cell phone, and she wanted one that costs $20 and you were going to buy her the one that costs $40, but not willing to buy the $20 one because it was red and you think red is demeaning and she should have a blue one, (my mother did last march to my sister with an ipod docking station - my sister wanted a red one and my mom wanted her to have a black one but there wasnt a black one in my moms price range so my sister couldnt have any even though my sister didnt care that the red one wouldnt match her blue and white room - although, in actuality it would - no sense really) so you won't let her have THAT one, and you think any parent who does is demeaning their child, when in atuallity they are respecting their child individuality. Parent wants child to stay safe, parent is open to the childs suggestion on how to accomplish that. You may not AGREE with it, or LIKE it, but its not demeaning. It's respectful.

[Draupadi]

Originally Posted by MonAmiBella

My husband is French and remembers being on a leash while his younger brother was in a pram. He's 34, BTW. My SIL has a leash for my nephew who's almost 3. I've seen many kids with them while we're n France.

I saw a few when I was in Scotland last year, and my MIL, who is Scottish, says people used them all the time. She used them in the 70's with DS, his sister, as did my own mother. I have no memories of being harnessed, but my mother did harness my brother and I. Believe it or not, I'm pretty independent and normal. She's Korean, btw.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

Ultimately it just goes against my whole philosphy as a mom to leash my child. You won't convince me that it has it's place. Of course you are free to make your own choice for your family, I just don't have to agree that it's a good one.

so don't do it. And the choice in my family is NOT to use a harness, but I'm not close minded about it either. I am able to see that what there is no place for in my family there may be a place for in another family. It's not demeaning for one parent to give their child respect in an area you would choose not to because you would see it as spoiling to give the child what they want (the harness)... perhaps you think letting a child wear a harness is spoiling, based on what you said, but demeaning? no.

demeaning: definitions:
*causing awareness of your shortcomings (wanting to use a harness is not making a child any more aware of their inability to stay close to the parent then is holding hands, verbally redirecting, or using a stroller/sling)
*Dehumanization is a process by which members of a group of people assert the "inferiority" of another group through subtle or overt acts or statements. (parent is not asserting over the child to wear a harness, child WANTS to wear a harness. I suppose, if anything, by this definition perhaps you feel that using a harness would be demeaning TO YOU not to your child, by respecting your childs desire to use one, that would take away from the superior feelings you have when you dont use one)
*take down: reduce in worth or character, usually verbally (this is not accomplished by respecting the child. If you said "a monkey back pack! what a great idea! you get your freedom and I know you will stay safe! would UPLIFT the child, not demean them)
*demeaningly - humiliatingly: in a humiliating manner (child isnt humiliated, so child is demeaned. again perhaps you would feel humiliated, then it would be demeaning. or perhaps YOUR child would feel humiliated, in which case we all agree it would be demeaning. the parents here who have used them have children who are happy to use them, and DONT feel humiliated, and therefor THEY are not being demeaned. )



However by many of these definitions one could say YOU are demeaning the people use harnesses.