Any African American LDS on here?

[DovieDoo]

If so, can I get your thoughts on how you reconcile your beliefs with the Church's history re: African Americans/minorities?

My husband and I are LDS and somewhat active. Really we would prefer to stop going altogether, but sometimes feel it's easier to go to avoid dealing with family/cultural issues over leaving the Church.

My husband and I are Caucasian, but adopting an African American boy and are torn with "allowing" our son to be raised in the LDS church. For example, in RS on Sunday, I heard the following comment by a "righteous sister." I paraphrase: "We need to learn how to have faith and trust in God, not the world. It's like in the 1970s when the rest of the world thought the church was racist. We knew the church wasn't racist and that instead blacks just weren't ready for certain things."

These are the kinds of obnoxious quotes we hear whenever this topic is brought up. Ironic b/c in saying the church is not racist, this person goes on to explain what (to me) is the definition of racist.

DH and I do not believe God is racist. We struggle with remaining in the Church b/c we cannot reconcile the Church's past with an unracist God. We do not want our son to hear comments like this.

I will mention that there are numerous other issues that make us question our membership in the LDS church, but this is the one on the forefront of my mind today.

So, if you are AA and LDS, I'd love and appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I am not trying to bash anyone's beliefs. I am just trying to determine if there is a way I can salvage my own.

Thanks!

[christianmomof3]

I did just do a search and found this:
http://www.blacklds.org/
and also this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_...ter-day_Saints
and also this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_...Saint_movement
and this
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon408.html
It does look like the church has relaxed some of their old standards and has become more inclusive.

But, I would not stay with any religion just because it is easier to stay with it than to deal with trouble from your family.
Especially if you will have to raise your child in that religion.
Is that what you want for your child if you don't agree with the religion?
I think it is something to think about seriously.

[DovieDoo]

Originally Posted by christianmomof3

I did just do a search and found this:
http://www.blacklds.org/
and also this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_...ter-day_Saints
and also this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_...Saint_movement
and this
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon408.html
It does look like the church has relaxed some of their old standards and has become more inclusive.

But, I would not stay with any religion just because it is easier to stay with it than to deal with trouble from your family.
Especially if you will have to raise your child in that religion.
Is that what you want for your child if you don't agree with the religion?
I think it is something to think about seriously.

Thanks, I appreciate your response. I am comfortably familiar with the historical aspect. I really am just hoping to get some personal reflection from members who have come to terms with this.

I know what you mean about not staying in the religion just for family. You make a very valid point. The truth is, I'm still struggling with other areas. I believe some things, not others and have not yet "resolved" my own belief. Does that make sense?

[holyhelianthus]

There is an LDS mama here who has 2 adopted African American boys.

But, I would not stay with any religion just because it is easier to stay with it than to deal with trouble from your family.
Especially if you will have to raise your child in that religion.
Is that what you want for your child if you don't agree with the religion?
I think it is something to think about seriously.

:

I am LDS, half white, and not sure about my other half (my mom liked to part ). I am either AA or Middle Eastern so take what I have to say or not.

I cannot stand Mormon culture but I believe the gospel is true. I can't stand Mormon culture for a variety of different reasons and that sister's quote in your OP is the attitude that bothers me the amongst Latter-Day Saints having to do with more than just race.

The thing is Mormon culture has taken over the church and thus the gospel as so many believe the church=the gospel. It's hard to separate all of it because so many people equate Mormon culture with the gospel through these lines. When someone goes off at the mouth like that it is not doctrine. It wasn't even when it was Brigham Young saying some of the racist things he did :. I don't know if this makes any sense but to me there is the gospel and then there is the church and the church is just a bunch of people trying to live the gospel and therefore it isn't perfect. There have been things done in the name of the gospel by the people I have very much disagreed with.

As for AA men not being able to hold the priesthood until 1978 I have a lot of thoughts on this as to why and the history of it (there were AA men who did hold it before the 70s) but what it has come down to for me is this- that was pre 1978 and this is now. Now that particular thing is not an issue but what is is the fallout from it meaning the ridiculous ideas some members still hold to and so on. THAT'S what I want to work on. I want to work on the hurt that was caused (we still need healing especially because the church wants to shove it under the rug and just not talk about it) and we still need education on the matter.

There are a lot of things in Mormonism that are proclaimed as racist by some and used as an excuse for racism by others. It is what it is. I have been in enough conversations about it on both sides to know that I'm not going to change any minds. So I guess I will just end this by saying I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ as put forth in Mormonism. I don't believe that racism is a part of that at all but I do believe that things have been twisted from the scriptures, opinions said by General Authorities, and so on that have been adopted as doctrine by some and has caused some big problems. That disapoints me beyond words. What I do is I hold to the gospel and strive to raise my children in that not in what Sister Sally Smith said about AA men and the Priesthood over the pulpit. Again, the gospel is perfect the people are not. Mormon culture is not the gospel. Every last thing that comes out of a General Authorities mouth is not the gospel. They are human which means they are flawed and capable of error.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it. to you and I think you need to decide if YOU believe in Mormonism before anything else. Feel free to PM me if you'd like and I'll let the LDS mama with the 2 boys know about your thread.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by magstphil

I don't know if this makes any sense but to me there is the gospel and then there is the church and the church is just a bunch of people trying to live the gospel and therefore it isn't perfect.

:

[Talula Fairie]

Fwiw, I have known several LDS people who are of other races, both of the people I visit teach are very active. One is Japanese and the other is from Fiji. I've also known quite a few African American LDS people, two of which are extremely active members of my ward. I myself am part Latin American (I probably am at least partly a decendant from the evol lamanites ).

I mean, take that with a grain of salt but...there are clearly some people out there that are not white, and many African Americans, who are happily active members of the church.

I agree with Maggie, the stupid things some people say are NOT doctrine. I think in any religion you'll find some people who will say things that are inflammatory, and you shouldn't hold the religion itself responsible for that. People are people and we all make mistakes.

One of the things I love about the church is how much we focus loving one another and giving service to others.

[DovieDoo]

Originally Posted by magstphil

It's hard to separate all of it because so many people equate Mormon culture with the gospel through these lines. When someone goes off at the mouth like that it is not doctrine. It wasn't even when it was Brigham Young saying some of the racist things he did :.

I appreciate you being honest about that. I see so many mormons ignoring or refusing to acknowledge such things.

Originally Posted by magstphil

I don't know if this makes any sense but to me there is the gospel and then there is the church and the church is just a bunch of people trying to live the gospel and therefore it isn't perfect. There have been things done in the name of the gospel by the people I have very much disagreed with.

Again, I agree with this. I used to say the same thing. What I'm struggling with, however, is not just the cultural aspect (like the above-quoted sister's statement), but the Church's past doctrinal position.

Originally Posted by magstphil

what it has come down to for me is this- that was pre 1978 and this is now.

But why it was ok in 1978 is what I struggle with. I know Pres. Hinckley simply said he himself did not know why (and I truly admired Pres. Hinckley) so I'm not sure I can expect answers. But it still haunts me. I do not know if I can accept the idea behind modern-day prophets if, in their role as prophet, they acknowledged principles that stood for a racist religion and a racist god.

Originally Posted by magstphil

Just my opinion, take it or leave it. to you and I think you need to decide if YOU believe in Mormonism before anything else. Feel free to PM me if you'd like and I'll let the LDS mama with the 2 boys know about your thread.

This is the truth. I do need to come to terms with this and I know which way my heart is leading me. It's not an easy thing to give up, however. I once had strong convictions and used much of the same rhetoric you hear in the Church about "not needing to know the answers to everything b/c I know the church is true and that is enough." But I feel I have matured in a way that calls into question so many things I was once comfortable not knowing the answers to.

[Talula Fairie]

I think no one really knows the real answer to this question. One thing that was suggested to me once by a missionary (and this is NOT doctrine, just his personal guess) was that in Joseph Smith's time and even after that, if an African American person held the priesthood, and went on a mission, he'd be putting himself in a lot of danger. Religious tensions were high for a long time; adding racial tensions into the mix might have been a recipe for disaster. Not sure how accurate this is, and again, it's just one person's theory.

[DovieDoo]

Originally Posted by Talula Fairie

Fwiw, I have known several LDS people who are of other races, both of the people I visit teach are very active. One is Japanese and the other is from Fiji. I've also known quite a few African American LDS people, two of which are extremely active members of my ward. I myself am part Latin American (I probably am at least partly a decendant from the evol lamanites ).

Aaah, but Asians and other ethnicities were not prohibited from holding priesthood positions, being sealed in the temple, etc. Sorry, I feel like we're just going to end up rehashing arguments that have been made ad nauseum. It's probably my fault for asking questions for which there may be no answers.

I guess I just want to hear from an African American member that, for whatever reason, the Church's official pre-1978 policy does not bother them. I want to hear that they can still believe in modern-day prophets who speak for God despite the fact that the pre-1978 prophets (with the possible exception of Joseph Smith) endorsed a doctrine which claimed "the curse" had not yet been lifted by God from people of African decent and as a result these people were not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel. And then I want to hear (in a simple expression of their faith) how they believe that. Not for the purpose of arguing or anything else. Just in hopes to bolster my failing faith in this area. (Which I know someone will turn around and say, I need my own testimony and not to rely on others. Believe me I know all the Church platitudes--I've held just about every position in RS, including RS President. I'm not trying to rely on someone else's testimony--I'm hoping to clarify my own--or lack thereof).

I know most other Church's have a similar "racist" history. But I've never believed other Church's had modern day prophets. It is what sets our Church apart. If the prophets are true today, don't they have to be true pre-1978? And if I cannot believe they were true pre-1978, how can I believe in "the one true Church?"

[Talula Fairie]

Ultimately I think this is something you will have to pray about and feel in your heart. I don't even think if you did get that perfect person to explain to you why they are in the church that it would truly help if your heart isn't in it.

What does the Spirit prompt you to do?

[DovieDoo]

Originally Posted by DovieDoo

And then I want to hear (in a simple expression of their faith) how they believe that. Not for the purpose of arguing or anything else. Just in hopes to bolster my failing faith in this area. (Which I know someone will turn around and say, I need my own testimony and not to rely on others. Believe me I know all the Church platitudes--I've held just about every position in RS, including RS President. I'm not trying to rely on someone else's testimony--I'm hoping to clarify my own--or lack thereof).

Originally Posted by Talula Fairie

Ultimately I think this is something you will have to pray about and feel in your heart. I don't even think if you did get that perfect person to explain to you why they are in the church that it would truly help if your heart isn't in it.

What does the Spirit prompt you to do?

I totally called it.

But you see, it is legitimate to do research as part of praying and listening to your heart. That is what I am endeavoring to do. Heavenly Father encourages us to search things out and to learn from others' testimonies, does he not?

[holyhelianthus]

But why it was ok in 1978 is what I struggle with.

I honestly do to. It's just like it was what it was and I can't change that. That is not to say I don't think about it, look into it, and have some thoughts on it but I find that I want to go back and scratch it out and I just can't. Pretty much my thoughts were this- if God and the religion were racist wouldn't we still be taking part in those things? Are we still as a whole (not talking individual members here)? I will be honest here and say I wonder how much of the pre 1978 stuff really came down to the human side of things. Were we as a people just not ready to be open? Was it human flaw?

I once had strong convictions and used much of the same rhetoric you hear in the Church about "not needing to know the answers to everything b/c I know the church is true and that is enough." But I feel I have matured in a way that calls into question so many things I was once comfortable not knowing the answers to.

I can very much relate to this. I do not- sorry make that DO NOT believe that one has to just let things go and fall into line in order to be a faithful member. I can see where that works for some and that's fine but for me I have to question and I have to seek and find out for myself and I personally believe that my Heavenly Father supports me in that when I do it openly and righteously. There have been times I have done it purely out of vindication and gotten nothing but what I put out but when I with all my heart seek it has come to me and often times in surprising ways with even more surprising conclusions. I think often times when members of the church question it is seen as challenging and not as a needed heartfelt inquiry by the member doing the searching. But I'm not questioning God I am looking for His answers, if that makes any sense.

My favorite scripture that has brought me peace and given me pause (Ether 12:6)-

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

*emphasis mine* (the links came over when I c&p'd)

[Talula Fairie]

I personally think it's fine if there are things about the doctrine that I don't fully understand. I am so sure of the Spirit that I feel and the positive influence of the church in my life and that of my family, that I don't feel the need to understand every single aspect of the church or it's doctrine.

Yes, I think it's great to be knowledgeable about the church and it's history, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning (I do it all the time) but we could never possibly understand everything. We've all heard Alma and his words about faith...and since you said you know all that, I won't repeat it but I think you know what I mean.

We should not be ignorant, but whether or not the church is true is not something anyone can prove to you. It's a matter of faith and there's just not anymore anyone can say.

I sincerely hope you find either peace with your decision to leave or the answers you are seeking that will strengthen your testimony.

With love,

-Lindsay

[Mommalookingfor2]

I am an LDS mama and I adopted a black little girl in 07...I do not know all the answers or really a lot of them but I plan on being honest with my little girl and let her choose...just as i am with adoption and everything else in her life...that said there is a great DVD called Blacks in the Scriptures...it is a DVD created by two black LDS members, they are both very active in the Genesis group (a group for black members of the church)...I just got it and haven't had a chance to watch but I am sure that there are some answers in there...I do truly feel that it was not entirely a racist thing and have personally come to terms with it...but I will give my child all the information and let them choose and I will support them in their choose whether to leave the church or stay in it...HTH

[DovieDoo]

Maggie, I like you. I wish more members were able to discuss things openly and respectfully without hurting feelings.

ETA: And this is not a slight on anyone else in this thread--hope that didn't seem implied.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by DovieDoo

But you see, it is legitimate to do research as part of praying and listening to your heart. That is what I am endeavoring to do. Heavenly Father encourages us to search things out and to learn from others' testimonies, does he not?

Yes I agree with this. I also see where you are coming from with AA members vs other races. It's not really the same at all.

I know most other Church's have a similar "racist" history. But I've never believed other Church's had modern day prophets. It is what sets our Church apart. If the prophets are true today, don't they have to be true pre-1978? And if I cannot believe they were true pre-1978, how can I believe in "the one true Church?"

Two things with regards to this question- 1) You were right in saying with the possible exception of Joseph Smith. Also take into account that AA men did hold the Priesthood before 1978 (from Smith's time on) just not all. There were some and I do believe blackLDS.org has them listed (???) so that does mean the church and therefore the Prophet knew about it and sanctioned it and 2) IMO it's not "all or nothing" with the Prophets. They are men of God but still men. They are fallible. Look how many things have been said and then later retracted by the church. So I think when we think about Prophets we need to take that into account and fall prey to the "what they say is right ALL THE TIME ALWAYS!" mindset. I wholeheartedly believe Brigham Young was and is a Prophet of the Lord but he said some things that weren't necissarily gospel truths. Prophets are Prophets not Gods.

[Talula Fairie]

I did realize that other races were not denied the priesthood or temple, but I have heard many claim the LDS church is all white, or that other races were still considered to be lower than, ect...so that's why I mentioned it. Sorry if it wasn't applicable in this case.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by DovieDoo

Maggie, I like you.

Give it time!

[DovieDoo]

Originally Posted by magstphil

Also take into account that AA men did hold the Priesthood before 1978 (from Smith's time on) just not all. There were some and I do believe blackLDS.org has them listed (???) so that does mean the church and therefore the Prophet knew about it and sanctioned it

You mean there were some ordained between the time of Brigham Young and Pres. Kimball? I knew there were during Joseph Smith's day, but not after that and before 1978. Interesting...

Originally Posted by magstphil

and 2) IMO it's not "all or nothing" with the Prophets. They are men of God but still men. They are fallible. Look how many things have been said and then later retracted by the church. So I think when we think about Prophets we need to take that into account and fall prey to the "what they say is right ALL THE TIME ALWAYS!" mindset.

But how do you know what is spoken in their role as prophet and what is just fallible man?

[Talula Fairie]

Originally Posted by DovieDoo

You mean there were some ordained between the time of Brigham Young and Pres. Kimball? I knew there were during Joseph Smith's day, but not after that and before 1978. Interesting..

There were a few, actually. Elijah Abel is the most famous of course, and that was during JS' time.


There also was one other person who was made an elder, around the time JS died...

1844: Walker Lewis Ordained an Elder
There are two conflicting accounts of the ordination of Lewis, a black man in Lowell, MA. According to a letter from William Appleby to Brigham Young dated June 2, 1847, William Smith, brother to Joseph Smith, ordains him, but according to Jane Elizabeth James written Feb. 7, 1890, Parley P. Pratt ordains him.

Later, one woman received a special blessing:

1902: Jane Manning James Receives a Special Temple Sealing
Jane has been a faithful black member of the Church since the days of Joseph Smith, Jr. She lived with the Smiths and was promised by Joseph and Emma that she could be adopted into their family. After several letter exchanges with Church leadership, she is given a special temple sealing as a “servant” to Joseph Smith Jr. She continues to pursue her endowment.

And

1934: Elijah Abel’s Grandson Ordained a Priest
On July 5, 1934, Elijah Abel, grandson of the first Elijah Abel, is ordained a priest in the Aaronic priesthood.
1935: Elijah Abel Ordained an Elder
On September 29, 1935, Elijah Abel, grandson of the first Elijah Abel, is ordained an Elder.

More info: http://www.blacklds.org/history

But how do you know what is spoken in their role as prophet and what is just fallible man?

Therein lies the rub. I personally rely on the spirit and my own research for stuff like that. Not sure what other people do.