thanks

[mystic~mama]

thx

[eirual]

I think you need to look at why she's being dishonest. Do you usually punish her for being untruthful or if situations don't go your way?

Fron the chai example, my first reaction is "so what?". It's not the best for her, but it's not going to be the end of her either, and while I'm sure you have your reasons, forcefully limiting or forbiding anything is only going to make it all the more tempting.

I think I'd try to offer her more autonomy. You can share your feelings about the situation, but make a conscious effort to leave the ball in her court. Her realising she's made a mistake and choosing to save that one for tomorrow on her own is worth much more than you taking it away until she admits she was untruthful.

It's hard being caught in a lie, (I never was very good at it) and as a kid I'd appreciate (not sure if that's the right word) being able to mull things over in my head and let my conscience get the better of me than being publically (even by my mother) somewhat humiliated (personally, I'd be embarassed).

[octobermom]

with almost no exceptions I never address the lie but the crime. FOr this I would have just said.. THe Chi is for adults (or whatever the boundry) please do not touch it again and eaither of tossed the milk and moved on made new one or made it clear this time well let it go but not again. I find when the lying is addressed it gives it power. I ws a really good lier as a child and addressing it only helped be become a better lier. (next time I'll get it and drink faster... ect.
At netrual times setting up senerios where one might want to lie to talk about would be a good idea. And a lie that puts someone or them self in real danger need to be addressed.

Deanna

[Theoretica]

Ok but in that circumstance octobermom, lying is more profitable than telling the truth. Meaning, to the 7yo (and I have one, and raised two others), lying about the milk gave the potential of getting to have it. Telling the truth would mean instant loss of the desired item.

What we do, and it works very well, is just say 'oh, it looks like you put chai into your milk. It's important to me (that's a key phrase) that you don't do that because it has caffeine. It seems to me that you enjoy having something special for your milk, and I can understand that. How can we work this out?

Then let the child brainstorm some solutions. Maybe they can do it once a week. Maybe they suggest finding a decaf version. There's solutions besides 'you lied, now you don't get what you want. If you had told the truth, I won't be mad, but you STILL don't get what you want'.

The lie provides the POTENTIAL of success. Take the focus off the lying and onto the communication.

And, FWIW, I think viewing ANYTHING a child does as a 'crime' is setting everyone up for frustration and failure.

HTH

[amcal]

Lying drives me insane.

My kids know that if they lie to me, I will loose my mind but, if they tell me the truth, I will not get angry and will help them figure out whatever the situation is.

I think because we've created a place where it is safe to tell the truth, without fear that I'm going to get angry, my kids feel safe telling me the truth.

So in your situation, I would have asked if they added the Chai and then if they lied and said they didn't, I would remind them of the rule - if you lie to me, I will get upset but, if you tell me the truth, we will calmly talk about it. Then, I would have asked again. If they lied, there would be consequences. If they told me the truth then I would have thanked them for the truth and then reminded them that the chai is for adults and asked them to please not touch it again.

And Theoretica - I agree with you. I probably wouldn't take the milk away at that point because, it's really not going to hurt her. For me, if I gave my kids the opportunity to tell the truth and they did, I would let them have the milk and just remind them for next time.

[cottonwood]

Well, if I had someone policing and punishing me I'd be pretty uninterested in being forthright with them. Seems to me you're setting yourself up for a long, distrustful, adversarial relationship with her.

[octobermom]

Ok but in that circumstance octobermom, lying is more profitable than telling the truth. Meaning, to the 7yo (and I have one, and raised two others), lying about the milk gave the potential of getting to have it. Telling the truth would mean instant loss of the desired item.

Only if you gave the lie power. IF you came in flat out adressed the issue (getting the CHI) and enforced this is not allowed by tossing the milk if needed then the lie would have no power. The lie only had power when its actions were open to discussion.

Deanna

[octobermom]

nd, FWIW, I think viewing ANYTHING a child does as a 'crime' is setting everyone up for frustration and failure.

HTH

I should have said "crime" I was just using words I'd harly consider pouring something from there own fridge a crime . I just meant I'd address the issue behind the lie...

Deanna

[pomplemoose]

i think that i would not ask her if she did, because that just gives the opportunity for a lie. You KNOW what she did, i would skip the questioning all together if you're sure she knows that its not something shes supposed to have and just say oops i guess you forgot the rules, let me get you another glass. or remind her of the rules and let her know that chai is a treat that needs to be asked for not just gotten.

[mamazee]

A good rule is to not put your child in a position where they have to incriminate themselves. If you know they did it, don't ask, just work with what you know. If they claim they didn't, then don't respond to the claim, just deal with what you know.

Then of course you have to weigh how much trouble a small amount of chai will cause your child and whether it's worth making an issue over in the first place.

[amcal]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

Well, if I had someone policing and punishing me I'd be pretty uninterested in being forthright with them. Seems to me you're setting yourself up for a long, distrustful, adversarial relationship with her.

umm, this is what parents do. I wouldn't use such harsh words as policing and punishing but, we do monitor out children's behaviors, help them make better choices, help them learn the rules, and enforce consequences when rules are broken. That's our job as parents.

And, I think the OP just gave the Chai as an example because it was a recent event and fresh in her mind. I highly doubt she's posting solely because of the chai incident. She said her DD is "constantly lying" so the problem is greater than just a little chai in some milk. The greater problem is habitual lying which, to me, is completely unacceptable and would need to be nipped in the bud immediately.

OP, I think it's great you're trying to address this. I have a nephew who has lied since he could talk. The lying was never dealt with - ever. Now he lies about everything - things he doesn't need to lie about. And, it's moved to cheating at games. And, he has absolutely no tolerance for being called out on his lying. It's never happened so, he has this bizarre sense of shock and disbelief that anyone would not believe him. It should have been dealt with years ago.

[VT mountaingirl]

I agree with Amcal. I think it is about the constant lying, not so much the Chai. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to help stop the constant lying? My 7 yr old DS is doing the same exact thing. Lying about silly things and more serious things. Is it a phase that some kids go through? It makes it very difficult to trust them. I am very interested in what everyone has to say.

[Theoretica]

Well, I think the examples given of how to deal with the Chai incident are just as appropriate in other situations.

1. Never ask what you already know the answer to. You are setting them up to practice repeating an unpleasant behavior. At our home (again using the chai as an example, but feel free to suggest more situations), I'd have said 'I see you got some Chai for your milk' IF I needed to say anything at all.

2. Don't push 'the truth' because it just makes the kid dig in more and refuse to budge. It's a shame/blame factor, and it's hard for kids to see outside themselves in these situations.

3. Take a really good look at how much your child may feel controlled or micromanaged, which is what sets the stage for lying in the first place. I realize you, as the parent, might not believe the child is controlled or micromanaged, but in THEIR eyes they probably are. What can you let go of? What are you, as the parent, concerned about? In the Chai situation, is it really that big of a deal in the long run? Probably not, and most likely it would be solved by realizing the child wants something 'grown up' and the mom wants the child to avoid caffeine. So get her some decaf and let go of the issue.

Remember that kids continually go through attaching and detaching from their parents as a cycle throughout growing up. I have a 7yo DD who has experimented with dishonesty also. The difference is I have NEVER 'forced the truth' or made an issue out of the lying itself. I have, however, made it a springboard for conversation about what her goal was in the process, what concerns I have, and what we can do to reach a mutual agreement.

Example. Just 2 minutes ago 7yoDD came slurking down the hallway quietly into her room from the stairway. We *just* had a family meeting last night about 15yoDS's need for privacy in his room/basement space (DD likes to stalk DS lol), and we agreed 7yoDD would check with a parent before pestering her brother downstairs. I said it looks like you came up from downstairs, is DS awake yet?. She says "I don't think so because when I looked under his door his light was still off! I said ok, thanks for letting me know, and for respecting his space by not knocking on the door or pestering him. It sounds like you're looking for someone to play with, when I get done here can we play a card game? She said 'that'd be great' and went into her room, calling the baby in to come play with her.

Does that give a better example of how we handle it? If I had said "Did you go downstairs? Did you pester DS? Did you.....fill in the blank, it would have been confrontational and disregarding of her wants/needs also, AND setting her up for shame and frustration, thus leading to a 'digging in' of lies to protect her feelings and intentions. I already KNOW she went downstairs. SHE already knows we agreed that wouldn't happen without checking with mom/dad first. Why corner her on it?

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by amcal

umm, this is what parents do. I wouldn't use such harsh words as policing and punishing but, we do monitor out children's behaviors, help them make better choices, help them learn the rules, and enforce consequences when rules are broken. That's our job as parents.

I agree with this.

I personally have younger children ages 4 and 5, and the unsophisticated protocol of "if you tell me the truth you won't be punished for what you did but we'll fix it, however, if you lie to me things won't go so well for you" is what we do here and seems to work fairly well at this stage.

I'm not a crazed punisher, but if someone lies to me they might get sent to a comfortable isolation (bedroom, etc) for a while before I am interested in talking to them about their role in fixing the mistake. Or I will come up with a much more ... final and foolproof consequence to make sure the mistake doesn't happen again any time soon, such as loss of use of a problematic object.

[Theoretica]

I did that with my oldest two pigpokey, and it didn't work well in the long run. It really set the stage for power struggles beyond all comprehension. I've had to really revamp my approach to this over the years and I'm much more comfortable with the current dynamic. I've realized that doing it the way you describe tends to set the stage for a 'win/lose' issue as opposed to a 'we can work it out so everyone's ok' strategy.

I really want to encourage everyone to see lying as a symptom of either a security or a control issue, instead of the primary root problem at hand.

[amcal]

Well, we've used the "If you lie to me, it will be very serious but, if you tell me the truth, we'll figure out a solution together" since they were very little. They're now 6 and 7 and very truthful children.

But, I always followed through with my part. I never made them fear telling me the truth. I always remained calm and we discussed whatever the situation was. They knew that telling me the truth was safe because I wouldn't get angry. I think kids want to tell the truth. They lie because they fear the consequences. If you take the fear away then they feel safe telling the truth and often feel relieved that the truth has come out and they have someone on their side helping them figure out how to fix whatever the situation was.

[A&A]

She's at that age! Wanting to be independent, and smart enough to know how to "manipulate" the truth. Don't take it personally.

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by eirual

I think you need to look at why she's being dishonest. Do you usually punish her for being untruthful or if situations don't go your way?

I agree. I try to pick my battles with my 7 yr old. She is the type that will tell little white lies because she is afraid she will get in trouble. I go out of my way to make sure I don't get on to her too often for it and if it's something little then I don't make a big deal out of it. I will remind her at times that it's not nice to lie and that mommy doesn't lie to her and that it's disrespectful. It worries me at times that she lies like she does at such a young age and makes me worry about how she'll be as a teen. But I'm hoping she stops by that time. I have a sister that was a liar too and lied for no reason usually and it drove my parents crazy.

[mystic~mama]

Originally Posted by eirual

I think you need to look at why she's being dishonest. Do you usually punish her for being untruthful or if situations don't go your way?

I express disappointment but punishment, no.

Fron the chai example, my first reaction is "so what?". It's not the best for her, but it's not going to be the end of her either, and while I'm sure you have your reasons, forcefully limiting or forbiding anything is only going to make it all the more tempting.

The chai is an example of a chronic thing that is happening right now so I felt it was significant enough for me to let her know I knew something was up and I told her she could have it, I just wanted her to be honest with me.

I think I'd try to offer her more autonomy. You can share your feelings about the situation, but make a conscious effort to leave the ball in her court. Her realising she's made a mistake and choosing to save that one for tomorrow on her own is worth much more than you taking it away until she admits she was untruthful.

that's a good suggestion, the chai is still sitting in the fridge, it didnt come back up.

The same day she actually admitted to taking something when I found it in her room while picking up.

reading the other replies......

[mystic~mama]

Originally Posted by Theoretica

Ok but in that circumstance octobermom, lying is more profitable than telling the truth. Meaning, to the 7yo (and I have one, and raised two others), lying about the milk gave the potential of getting to have it. Telling the truth would mean instant loss of the desired item.

What we do, and it works very well, is just say 'oh, it looks like you put chai into your milk. It's important to me (that's a key phrase) that you don't do that because it has caffeine. It seems to me that you enjoy having something special for your milk, and I can understand that. How can we work this out?

Then let the child brainstorm some solutions. Maybe they can do it once a week. Maybe they suggest finding a decaf version. There's solutions besides 'you lied, now you don't get what you want. If you had told the truth, I won't be mad, but you STILL don't get what you want'.

The lie provides the POTENTIAL of success. Take the focus off the lying and onto the communication.

And, FWIW, I think viewing ANYTHING a child does as a 'crime' is setting everyone up for frustration and failure.

HTH

Wow, LOVING this new perspective!