So confused.

[icewaterwithice]

Until our first child my wife and I never really gave circumcision a thought. We figured that it was something that parents "just do" if they have a male child. When we got pregnant with our first we started to really give it some thought and did some research. This was when we really started questioning the procedure. We were enlightened by the historical reasons, the sensual consequences, and the ethical arguments of circumcision. Equally confusing and at times quite alluring was the plethora of information that could be found pertaining to the supposed medical benefits. This was in 2007 so the HIV studies were in the newspaper. Twenty weeks later we found out we were having a girl and my brain could stop hurting.

Two years later we are pregnant again. We recently found out that it was a boy this time and I find myself a little disappointed because now this issue has become very real for us. I consider genital mutilation to be wrong and could not live with myself objecting to FGM yet allowing my son to be circumcised. I could not live with myself allowing any child of mine to have a scalpel taken to their body days into the world without any immediate medical justification. Yet, I still find myself faltering under some of the research. As a researcher myself I understand the arguments against experimental protocol or bias of researchers. I also realize that there may actually be some truth in the findings despite my desire to want to hear differently.

As I write this I dont even know if I will post it. I mainly come here for morale support when I feel crushed by the deluge of information before me. I know what we are going to do and keep telling myself that at least our decision is reversible and he can decide what he wants to do based on the information that is available to him when he comes of age. I know that if we were in almost any other part of the developed world this would not even be a question. I am tired of thinking about it and I am tired of family pressure.

[Super Pickle]

Welcome, ice.

I just wanted to address one thing you wrote:
I also realize that there may actually be some truth in the findings despite my desire to want to hear differently.

Yes, there may be some truth to the findings. However, even if there is some truth to those researchers' conclusion that circumcision could reduce a man's risk for STD's, it still doesn't justify circumcising a newborn. What makes a lot more sense is to let the child grow up whole, and when he is an adult, he can examine the evidence for himself and decide for himself whether his behavior puts him at such high risk that the extra protection woould be worth the discomfort, the risks, and the loss.

[Fellow Traveler]

Hey Ice, I am assuming your the husband if I read that correctly, right? I think you know the right answer already. And before we go any further I want you to remember that good medicine demands good ethics, I think you already know that. Without clear clinical need how can it be ethical to circumcise your son?

You are concerned about the more recent research I presume. So let's talk about these things. Most recently, it's been HPV and HIV.

I recently wrote a post about HPV here:

http://www.circumcisionandhiv.com/20...ad-doctor.html

HIV is an issue that has been used to grandstand too. I think, as a researcher, you should look at prevalence and ask yourself does the purported protection, even if we were to assume all the data was accurate, amount to anything substantial for a child in a first world country? The answer to that question is no. I have estimated that difference in probability of contracting HIV in the US between an intact and circumcised boy is on the order of hundredths of a percent, when condoms aren't considered. I am willing to discuss this more in depth over PM if you want. Or any other of these more recent issues that might have you concerned.

As a researcher, I think you'll be able to see why I say that no rational thinker can defend circumcision.

[dearmama22]

I thought the same thing before I had my son.

I always thought I would circumcise just because that's what ( everyone around me) did and it was just " the thing to do." I never really thought about it until I found out we were having a boy.

We decided not to circumcise our son because we didn't feel a need for it and I'm SO glad we made that decision. I would have regretted it so much. I can't imagine someone cutting up my perfect babies penis.

Lots of our family members think it's strange because it's not what " everyone else" around us did/do but we made the right decision for our child and that's what matters.

[ZTMOM]

I understand how exhausting it feels to struggle with whether you are making the best choice for your son.
In our experience, after your son is here it will be hard to understand why it ever seemed like a big deal.
Also, with our Moms we took the "when you know better you do better"/"we're not judging you for circ your boys" approach. Everyone else got the educational speech. No one has said any more about it.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

For me it came down to not my body not my choice. Ds can always have it done later but once it is done it cannot be undone.

[tutucrazy]

WELCOME Ice!!!!

I think you already know in your heart what is the right decision.

Remember that anytime you cut off a body part, you avoid some type of problem. If women had their breast buds cut out then they would not have any chance of breast cancer. IF women had their labia cut off then they would probably contract herpes less. But none of this warrants amputation of a healthy, functional body part. In fact there are more medical and sexual benefits to keeping a boy intact! You don't see these benefits splashed in the news headlines b/c we live in a circumcising society that wants to continue circumcision.

As far as STDs and HIV go, did you know that the USA has the highest rate of STD transmission of any other developed country. The circ rate among sexually active men in our nation is still very high, as only recently have these rates dropped. Currently 1 in 3 Americans have an STD and men tend to be asymptomatic (especially circumcised ment) These men are totally unaware that they have an STD so they infect their partners without knowing. The only reliable prevention of STDs and HIV is responsible behavior and condom use. This is what we need to teach our children. And as others have said, newborns don't go around having sex so they can make that decision when they come of age. My bet is that you would be a very nervous parent if your 18 year old son announced that he was going to get circumcised so that he didn't have to wear condoms...

I hope you will keep your precious boy intact and let him experience the great pleasure of owning a foreskin and his WHOLE body. It is his body, give him the choice.

I am going to post this link for you to read since I have a strong feeling you will be raising a healthy, intact boy:

Care of the Intact Child:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1071893

Stick around and ask your questions!

[lawmama1984]

Hey Ice and welcome! I also agonized over the decision, but I can tell you I am SO glad I left my son intact and am now a proud intactivist....one quote that comes to mind often for me is "when you know better, you do better." I only knew better because I was blessed with doulas (and an OB) who were against RIC. I now am so proud of the decision (or lack thereof) I made for my son. Trust me, you will have NO regret. Think about it this way...RIC is irreversible, leaving him intact gives your son the decision.

If our DS makes the decision when he is older, we have decided to pay for the procedure (that is just our own personal decision), but I refuse to violate his autonomy (genital or otherwise) by making that decision for him. There is no good evidence to support RIC and there is substantial evidence, IMHO, to support NOT RIC.

One thing I will suggest is sticking with this message board...there are so many knowledgeable people on here who can support you and provide information through this.

Leaving your son intact is a decision you will never regret (at least I have not in 11 months)...good luck and just know there are tons of us here to support you!

[PuppyFluffer]

Welcome and thank you for sharing your post. I am glad you are looking at this issue. You will get a lot of support here.

Originally Posted by ZTMOM

In our experience, after your son is here it will be hard to understand why it ever seemed like a big deal.

I think this is so true.

Instinctively I knew I'd never circumcise my child.

Now that I have a boy, I cannot tell you how many times I've been overcome with such strong emotions knowing that I have saved him from the pain and violation of circumcision. The trust he has in me to protect him is intact. It's a really profound knowing and it shows in his eyes. I have held him tight and shed tears for the boys who have not escaped circumcision.

His body is so normal, so natural. He will be raised with a strong sense of himself and I have no fears that he will be teased. I have full confidence that he will be competent to shower his body. I know that we will educate him about his body and safe sexual practices.

I am so glad you posted!

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by icewaterwithice

...Yet, I still find myself faltering under some of the research. As a researcher myself I understand the arguments against experimental protocol or bias of researchers. I also realize that there may actually be some truth in the findings despite my desire to want to hear differently....

Yes, there is truth to the research and as a researcher you recognize that.

But you also need to recognize how to analyze a decision. This is very different than simply finding out the conclusions of a study. Just because there is some benefit to a given procedure, does not, by itself justify that as the best treatment alternative. We could prevent all testicular cancers by cutting the balls off all infants. No one would agree to that as a reasonable course of action because it is easy to see the downside of hormone imbalances, inability to procreate, etc.

The same is true for this decision. The decision must be made by weighing the consequences of the alternative choices. For instance you could weigh these alternatives:

1) Leave him intact
2) Stay undecided, but let him decide when he is of legal age
3) RIC him as an infant

Then, after your alternatives are laid out, you also need to consider your objectives, or how you will compare the consequences of the alternative in a relative way. So you might say you wish to:

a) maximize the birth event as enjoyable and inviting as possible for him
b) minimize any pain and risk of infection during infancy
c) support human rights
d) support genital integrity
e) maximize his the options available to him as an individual
f) maximize his ability to enjoy and have sexual relations
g) keep his body as natural as possible
h) maximize his partner's sexual enjoyment
i) minimize his risk of STDs when he is older

Then compare how the 3 alternative decisions rate on each of these. Then choose the one that is best in that it maximizes what you achieve across all of your objectives.

One of the reasons it seems so difficult to do this is that most procirc advocates minimize and ignore the negative effects RIC. Many sources are highly biased, even though they seem to be objective through careful word choices.

Regards

[PuppyFluffer]

Great post Greg!

[eepster]

I haven't read all of the PP, so forgive repeats.


If you look at the actual HIV studies, what they actually prove is:

Circumcision reduces chances of getting HIV for the 18 months immeditely following painful surgery on ones penis that prevents one from having sex for at least 6 weeks and most likely longer.

Since the control group was circumcised at the end of the 18 month study, there is no way to say if it had any long term benefit.

When you son is ready to be sexually active 15 to 20 years from now, he can consider if he wants to be circ'd. It is possible that by then the research will show that there is no HIV protection provided by circ. It is also possible that a vaccine will have been developed. Or, you son might choose to be responsible and wear condoms, which will not just give a dubios slight protection from hetrosexual vaginal intercourse (which accounts for only a small % of cases,) but will protect him from other forms as well.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by eepster

It is also possible that a vaccine will have been developed.

Not only is this possible but I am betting very likely. Consider the difference in treatment between today and 15 years ago. More than 15 years ago, an HIV diagnoses was a death sentence. Today it's a terrible, chronic, but manageable disease. Big change in only 15 years bigger changes are sure to come.

[Picturesque]

Welcome! You've received a lot of good advice. I just wanted to add that we hear so many accounts of stubborn husbands who refuse to explore this issue. Your son is very lucky to have a father who is so willing to explore this issue and work as hard as you are to make the best choice.

[icewaterwithice]

Originally Posted by Picturesque

Welcome! You've received a lot of good advice.

Yes I have, thank you all for you supportive words. I know that not circumcising is the right thing to do, it was just a hard week with bombardment from both sides of the family. In the case of my parents it simply come down to a desire to justify what they allowed to happen to me. While I harbor no resentment for a decision made out of lack of information I wish they would be more receptive to the information that is out there now. I guess ignorance is truly bliss. In the case of my wifes family it comes down to attachments "out of the scope of this forum".

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

I hear you on the family part both sides of gparents here gave me grief but you know what they love ds even though they where unwilling/unable to grasp that circ is just a cosmetic proceedure.

[needhelpplease]

I think you know what (not) to do and I think you will do the right thing, based on the way you say it. It just sounds like you need some support, so here's some support:

Your families might make a fuss when he's a newborn but they will most likely get over it and forget all about it within a rather short time.

About the potential medical benefits, most intact adults I've noticed don't seem to care. Here in Australia around 90% of guys in my age group are intact. I've heard people mention the circ/HIV thing and it's just shrugged off by guys who honestly don't care for reducing their chance slightly in a really ineffective way. They don't consider it a reasonable trade off. It was sort of viewed as an interesting discovery, but not one that would actually change what they'd do (for them or sons). Just thought you might like to hear that.

[hollycat]

boy, do you sound pained. its very touching. i think i would say lighten up. we have one circ'd boy in our househod, one non cir'cd. they BOTH love their penises. i have adult friends who are circ'd and not, and they all love their penises. do what feels best to you, and know it will be fine. whatever you do, dont regret it. we want both the boys in our house to feel perfect.

[Yulia_R]

Congrats on your decision to keep your son whole! What a lucky boy your son will be!

Just make sure everybody who has any access to his penis (relatives, doctors, nurses, babysitters, etc) is CLEARLY informed to NEVER pull the foreskin back (not even a little bit).

Make sure to read this thread: A Warning to Parents With Intact Sons

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1050941

[Quirky]

Since you're a researcher, you should think about WHY the research is being done in the first instance -- and what the underlying and unstated assumptions are behind the research.

The fundamental, underlying bias behind all the studies on the "benefits" of circumcision carried out by Western (mostly American) scientists and doctors is that circumcision is at best beneficial and at worst harmless. Nowhere in these studies is there a true cost-benefit analysis of the risks of circumcision and the harms of removing the foreskin, because the assumption is made at the outset that the risks are minimal and the foreskin is a useless evolutionary remnant.

Also, look at the lack of research being done on female circumcision to prove its benefits. That's because it's been widely accepted in this country that female circumcision is harmful and mutilating with no benefits whatsoever -- despite the fact that genital tissue is practically identical between the two genders and is different really only in form, not in innervation or function. After all, embryologically speaking, the genitals differentiate from identical tissues only under the influence of hormones.

There was a paper presented at the World AIDS symposium a couple of years back that showed that, even controlling for religion, education, socio-economic status, etc., circumcised women were significantly less likely to be HIV positive (I believe in Tanzania) than their intact counterparts. This research was met with overwhelming silence, because Western societies have decided to eradicate female circumcision. No follow-up research has been done in a controlled experiment putting women into two control groups, those offered circumcision and those remaining intact. Yet the exact same type of epidemiological evidence was used to justify the trials of male circumcision.

You have to look at these studies in context. If you wouldn't consider circumcising your daughter to prevent (fill in the blank), then you have to realize that you are still freighted down with the cultural belief that somehow circumcision is different for boys than for girls, that somehow the female genitals are sacrosanct but the male genitals are not. The research is (no longer) done on the benefits of female circumcision because we have already assumed the outcome, that the costs can never justify the benefits.

It's so simple! Cut through the cultural clutter, and it will be a huge relief to come out the other side and realize the delusions that your families are suffering from. They're not right, they're just brainwashed. You don't have to persuade them or convince them, you just have to tell them that the discussion is over and that your baby boy is remaining whole just as your baby girl did.

And at the end of the day, the "science" about circumcision is just about cultural rationalization for the completely illogical superstitions that sacrificing boys' body parts on the altar of convention will purify society of its sins. It's voodoo science masquerading as modern medicine, and it should have gone out the window with bloodletting to relieve bad humours in the body.