Orthodox kissing icons

[philia]

OK, I know this sounds bad to other Orthodox . I am pretty much against my children kissing the icons at Church. I let them kiss the cross. They kiss our icons at home. I bring them up before the masses line up after Liturgy for the cross. My sitter took my daughter and had her kiss a big icon as we were leaving church and I hope she does not get sick. And now there is the swine flu thing . I figure if people got sick from it that nobody would do it. I have prayed for God to help me with this. I was wondering what you all do and how you feel about it. We have 900 members and just the sheer numbers make me a little uncomfortable.
If the swine flu starts growing are you going to kiss the icons ? I never thought twice about kissing icons until I had kids. I just think some people do go to church sick.
I read something on an OCA website where priest addresses this and says how with the communion if you take it properly that your mouth should not touch the spoon and alcohol would kill things. I read how actually handshaking is more germy than kissing. I find that hard to believe. I think you can defend icons forever. I do believe they are windows to heaven and can work miracles but I also think about the hundreds who kiss it. The icons are sacred but the people who kiss them are just people, people with germs. Please help me with this.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by philia

OK, I know this sounds bad to other Orthodox . I am pretty much against my children kissing the icons at Church. I let them kiss the cross. They kiss our icons at home. I bring them up before the masses line up after Liturgy for the cross. My sitter took my daughter and had her kiss a big icon as we were leaving church and I hope she does not get sick. And now there is the swine flu thing . I figure if people got sick from it that nobody would do it. I have prayed for God to help me with this. I was wondering what you all do and how you feel about it. We have 900 members and just the sheer numbers make me a little uncomfortable.
If the swine flu starts growing are you going to kiss the icons ? I never thought twice about kissing icons until I had kids. I just think some people do go to church sick.
I read something on an OCA website where priest addresses this and says how with the communion if you take it properly that your mouth should not touch the spoon and alcohol would kill things. I read how actually handshaking is more germy than kissing. I find that hard to believe. I think you can defend icons forever. I do believe they are windows to heaven and can work miracles but I also think about the hundreds who kiss it. The icons are sacred but the people who kiss them are just people, people with germs. Please help me with this.

OK, you're letting your kids venerate the Cross at the end of the service. Do you think the priest actually cleans it after each service? I know my priest does NOT - the only thing he'll do is wipe lipstick off it.

In my parish, the icon out for veneration is under glass in a kiot - the lip prints and lipstick get wiped off with Windex and a paper towel after each service, but that's not in the case in many churches.

Have you talked to your priest about your concerns?

Are you concerned about germs other places other than on the icons at church?

[lilyka]

honestly germs on the icons have never crossed my mind. I don't worry about communion because alcohol will kill anything. plus I am generally unconcerned about eating or drinking after people. . . . your mouth is really is quite sterile. I would actually be more concerned about all the things my childrens hands touch in church than what their mouths/lips touch. I read somewhere tyhat the main pathway of sickness id through the eyes. you have germs on your hands and then touch your eyes. would you feel better if you kept som sanitizer on their hands? some kids kiss their hands and then touch the icon at our church (some adults do it.) I generally assumed it was "can't reach the icon " but maybe it is a germ thing. (we have icon stained glass windows the people will venerate by kissing their hands and touching the icon. like blowing a kiss because they would have to get a ladder to kiss it)

in the end I would talk to your spiritual father about it.

[mamabadger]

Some parents just have little kids kiss their hand and place the hand on the icon (especially if they are still young and slobbery). Little babies are sometimes carried up to the icon and their head touched to it. These might work for you.

As for Communion, there was a small dispute over this a few years ago during the Sars outbreak. It was suggested that Orthodox churches use another way of distributing Communion, such as using a disposable spoon for each person. Most of the churches and bishops refused. Some spokespeople said that if an Orthodox person believes the Body and Blood of Christ can be overcome by bacteria, he should not be receiving it in the first place.

[philia]

orthodox

I always think that the cross at the end of the service is more germ free because the cross we use on Sunday is not the same cross that is used the night before. We also have at least two priests with two different crosses to get in line for and I try to be 2-3 in line. I LOVE the kiss your finger then put it on the icon for the kids. We don't have a glass cover on our icons. I am sure they have to be cleaned off sometime but my sitter took her up to it right after the service so it was kissed by everyone who walked in. I have seen kids pretty much lick an icon and I am grossed out. I know what my priest would say and it would be the same as any of your priest's response I am pretty sure. I do feel bad because I don't think twice about myself kissing. My daughter had a health scare when she was little and I have been more careful ever since. I think the older they get their immune systems get stronger and my worries will fade over time. I will pray about it and do the finger thing. Thank you Mamabadger I will ask the sitter tomorrow to do the same. I was not going to worry about the swine flu but it is of course all over the news. I can't see people changing the way they take communion or kissing just yet but I think it would be wise for some priests to say in the wake of recent events to not come and partake if you feel under the weather. Tell me if you disagree but I don't know if kids should kiss if they don't know why. My kids love church and kissing the cross but at age 2 and 3 they can't grasp the Sunday of St. Thomas . I agree about the hand germ stuff. I think touching door handles is germy but I can't help but to feel awful that I did not stop the sitter. Thanks for all of your responses. I love it that there are orthodox people on here.
Are you scared of Swine Flu ?
Philia

[Truvie]

I was raised Serbian Orthodox (and Catholic; one parent of each :-), and my parents taught us to "almost" kiss the icons. Like, kiss them a fraction of an inch over the actual glass. Kind of funny now that I reflect on it!

[Bluegoat]

As far as communion goes, I know there have actually been studies done on the Western way of giving communion, and they found that there was very little germ transfer as long as the vessels were silver and they were wiped according to custom. Silver is a very inhospitable material for germs.

I find myself a bit torn about these kinds of questions, because I think the spiritual arguments are pretty convincing, but I also have a nagging conviction that we are animals as well as spiritual creatures. And then how far can we extend the spiritual protection claim - does it apply to shaking hands with or kissing another church member? Sneezing on the back of the pew? Those are silly examples of course, but I think in some ways they are to the point.

I don't think it can hurt to do sensible things - I think priests should give their hands a good scrub before the services for example (and probably later too after everyone has shaken their hand.)

And maybe during a major outbreak of illness, it would be good to look at modifying practices - on the one hand it might be unnecessary, but on the other, it is protecting those who are weak.

In a case like that, I guess I would think, why do I want myself or my child to kiss the icon? Is that the only way of accomplishing that, or are there other ways that might be as effective?

[athansor]

I know that the Orthodox, Catholic and Episcopal churches have somewhat different views when it comes to the Eucharist, but this has really got me thinking. In the case of a serious pandemic, would it be heretical for a Eucharistic minister in a church that believed in transubstantiation to take precautions to avoid spreading of germs during Communion? It would seem that it would somehow deny the Real Presence if it could carry a virus.

[lilyka]

well the cup is still just a cup and it can still carry germs. I should ask my priest about this. . . . if nothing else he would find it an intresting conversation.

[philia]

I am tinking a lot about this

A cup is a cup. People now matter how much they believe carry germs in their mouths. let me know what you hear from your priest.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by philia

A cup is a cup. People now matter how much they believe carry germs in their mouths. let me know what you hear from your priest.

But we're given communion via a spoon (that's usually silver or gold-plated silver). It can be done in a such a way that it doesn't even touch any part of your mouth.

On the news this morning, I heard that the local Catholic diocese announced that they are not going to make any changes in the way Communion is given - at least at this time. No cases in my area, or even in the state.

[Tradd]

I know an Orthodox priest who baptized a woman with AIDS on her deathbed. He gave her Communion the usual way, and then cleaned the spoon the usual way - by first putting it in his own mouth and then wiping it off. He said he wasn't worried, because it WAS the Body and Blood of Christ.

[lilyka]

my point was that no matter what you believe about the bread and wine/body and blood the cup is still just a cup. it doesn't change

generally most germs won't live on a hard dry surface. so inbetweens are not really a worry. silver is a natrual antimicrobial. as is alcohol. There is no way I would drink juice from a communal cup but wine, .

honestly I would rather wait until the scare was over than take communion a different way. I refuse to let a spirit of fear change the way we have worshiped for thousands of years.

[Papanikoli]

Holy Communion and communicable diseases.

Good morning,
I am an Orthodox Christian priest. Married with 2 lil' ones.
This is a very common theme, especially during pandemic times.
Everybody is concerned about virus transmission through the Holy Gifts, so let's talk about any given Sunday, or even weekday Liturgies:

After I Commune dozens and dozens of people each Sunday (via the common spoon), what happens to the rest of the Holy Communion, which in essence has everybody's (ahem) "germs" in it?

The priest consumes the rest at the end of the Liturgy. Every time. This has been going on for almost 2000 years in the Orthodox Church. So why is the longevity of Orthodox Clergy no different than anyone else?

One answer: YOU CANNOT TRANSFER DEATH THROUGH LIFE. CHRIST IS LIFE.

Do we have faith, or not? When SARS came around, it was business as usual at my church. End of story.

I am more than happy to answer any questions. Remember, knowledge is power. God bless you.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Papanikoli

Good morning,
I am an Orthodox Christian priest. Married with 2 lil' ones.
This is a very common theme, especially during pandemic times.
Everybody is concerned about virus transmission through the Holy Gifts, so let's talk about any given Sunday, or even weekday Liturgies:

After I Commune dozens and dozens of people each Sunday (via the common spoon), what happens to the rest of the Holy Communion, which in essence has everybody's (ahem) "germs" in it?

The priest consumes the rest at the end of the Liturgy. Every time. This has been going on for almost 2000 years in the Orthodox Church. So why is the longevity of Orthodox Clergy no different than anyone else?

One answer: YOU CANNOT TRANSFER DEATH THROUGH LIFE. CHRIST IS LIFE.

Do we have faith, or not? When SARS came around, it was business as usual at my church. End of story.

I am more than happy to answer any questions. Remember, knowledge is power. God bless you.

Yes I think this is an interesting and good point, although if priests were to start dropping like flies, it might give one pause. Would you say this also applies to kissing icons?

[philia]

Kissing icons

I would like the Priest to address kissing icons also ?
Philia

[Bluegoat]

I had a really strange thought about this today. Anglicans, of which I am one, also give the same argument about priests not getting sick more often, despite consuming the dregs of the Eucharist.

Now, from an Orthodox viewpoint, our Eucharists aren't valid. So, if a person accepts that, it seems to me to suggest one of two things:

1) God's grace is very bountiful

2) Compared to other thing's we do, the acts involved in sharing Eucharist aren't a big factor in passing germs, whether or not it is actually the Body and Blood of Christ or just bread and wine.

Either way, it would be comforting to those worried about disease.

[philia]

This has got me thinking about a lot more now.

What about people that go up to communion and kiss icons that really don't prepare or believe? I am talking about people that go because they think that is what you do on Sunday or they go because their family is there. I think a lot of Orthodox might kiss an icon without thinking twice or go up for communion so the priest will see that they are in church. Is the communion ever made less sacred by people who are not taking it for the right reasons? I know this is not true in every church. I went to a Serbian church once where nobody but the priest took communion. Can the body and blood of Christ be defiled by non prepared Orthodox ? I would think not but what about the icons. If you were reverent I don't think you would kiss an icon if you had a cold. I know the sins of others should not be my concern as far as communion. I was just thinking about all of this with regards to the communion never being able to transport germs.
Lets say a guy eats a hungry man's breakfast before Liturgy and then yells at his wife and kids on the car ride there and this is after a night of binge drinking at a poker night. He also has herpes that he caught from a stripper. He goes to Liturgy and sits in the pew with all of his family. He has kissed the icon of the Theotokas as he enters the Narthex. He has done this all his life. He takes communion and then leaves early to watch basketball on T.V. in the kitchen before coffee hour. Could his vulgarity effect the communion or Icons he kissed ? Should I still be fine having my innocent child kiss and share a spoon with this guy ? i just think not everyone at Liturgy is a good God fearing person who treats the communion and icons with respect. Is it a sin as a mother to wonder if the Icons have been kissed by sick people? I want to teach them not to fear church. Sorry if I took this too far.
Philia

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by philia

What about people that go up to communion and kiss icons that really don't prepare or believe? I am talking about people that go because they think that is what you do on Sunday or they go because their family is there. I think a lot of Orthodox might kiss an icon without thinking twice or go up for communion so the priest will see that they are in church. Is the communion ever made less sacred by people who are not taking it for the right reasons? I know this is not true in every church. I went to a Serbian church once where nobody but the priest took communion. Can the body and blood of Christ be defiled by non prepared Orthodox ? I would think not but what about the icons. If you were reverent I don't think you would kiss an icon if you had a cold. I know the sins of others should not be my concern as far as communion. I was just thinking about all of this with regards to the communion never being able to transport germs.
Lets say a guy eats a hungry man's breakfast before Liturgy and then yells at his wife and kids on the car ride there and this is after a night of binge drinking at a poker night. He also has herpes that he caught from a stripper. He goes to Liturgy and sits in the pew with all of his family. He has kissed the icon of the Theotokas as he enters the Narthex. He has done this all his life. He takes communion and then leaves early to watch basketball on T.V. in the kitchen before coffee hour. Could his vulgarity effect the communion or Icons he kissed ? Should I still be fine having my innocent child kiss and share a spoon with this guy ? i just think not everyone at Liturgy is a good God fearing person who treats the communion and icons with respect. Is it a sin as a mother to wonder if the Icons have been kissed by sick people? I want to teach them not to fear church. Sorry if I took this too far.
Philia

I don't know about icons, but the Eucharist is the Eucharist, objectively, no matter the spiritual state of any participant or the priest. So I don't see how it would transmit the germs of a thoughtless or vulgar or evil person any more than a very holy person.

I am wondering about intent though - if an evil person decided to kill all the members of a church by transmitting disease through the Eucharist, would it work? I am inclined to say that God wouldn't allow it - though I will now probably have someone tell me that someone poisoned a congregation through the Eucharist which would be similar. In one of my favorite novels, a priest was poisoned by another priest that way,and they say that truth is stranger than fiction.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by philia

What about people that go up to communion and kiss icons that really don't prepare or believe? I am talking about people that go because they think that is what you do on Sunday or they go because their family is there. I think a lot of Orthodox might kiss an icon without thinking twice or go up for communion so the priest will see that they are in church. Is the communion ever made less sacred by people who are not taking it for the right reasons? I know this is not true in every church. I went to a Serbian church once where nobody but the priest took communion. Can the body and blood of Christ be defiled by non prepared Orthodox ? I would think not but what about the icons. If you were reverent I don't think you would kiss an icon if you had a cold. I know the sins of others should not be my concern as far as communion. I was just thinking about all of this with regards to the communion never being able to transport germs.
Lets say a guy eats a hungry man's breakfast before Liturgy and then yells at his wife and kids on the car ride there and this is after a night of binge drinking at a poker night. He also has herpes that he caught from a stripper. He goes to Liturgy and sits in the pew with all of his family. He has kissed the icon of the Theotokas as he enters the Narthex. He has done this all his life. He takes communion and then leaves early to watch basketball on T.V. in the kitchen before coffee hour. Could his vulgarity effect the communion or Icons he kissed ? Should I still be fine having my innocent child kiss and share a spoon with this guy ? i just think not everyone at Liturgy is a good God fearing person who treats the communion and icons with respect. Is it a sin as a mother to wonder if the Icons have been kissed by sick people? I want to teach them not to fear church. Sorry if I took this too far.
Philia

Your mind moves in interesting ways!

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.

Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom.

May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen. Prayer before Communion

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood[d] of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. 1 Corinthians 11:27-32

I would think the portion I've quoted above from St. Paul's first Epistle to the Corinthians would be clear enough. Also read the prayer before Communion we say in church together.

One of the reasons we Orthodox have closed Communion is to protect those who do not believe. Someone taking Communion either unworthily or when they shouldn't, are risking themselves, to put it one way.