any radical feminists on MDC? - Page 6

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

what i don't get is the perspective of some people (feminists included) that consider some of my beliefs and practices anti feminist. i am a SAHM b/c i choose to be... but some people think this is an insult to feminists... huh? i have a choice... i made my choice... thats the point of feminism IMO. I don't understand why some people consider not using birth control, opting for out of hospital or drug free births, SAHMing, extended BFing etc. anti feminist. i actually think that birth is a huge feminist issue and anyone who believes advocating for our right to birth at home, vaginally, with our intervention etc as anti feminist is totally missing the point.

same for extended BFing, AP, and other things that 'tie me down' ... i see these as huge women's rights issues... the right to NIP, pump at work, extended maternity leave etc are not demeaning to women... at least IMHO they are empowering, and they are choices we should have the right to make. what do you all think?

I absolutely agree. The right to self determination includes the right to stay at home with your children, of course. It wouldn't be a choice if you HAD TO work outside the home, right? Unfortunately, deciding to be a SAHM seems to be something that is met with an awful lot of resistance today, and I personally see that as something that is going to turn into a feminist issue.

Birth rights are so very important to me, especially after my recent experiences with the lack of them. I had a UC, and was told by SO MANY PEOPLE that I should have "just gone to the hospital" like "normal women" do. I had huge trouble getting the birth certificate. In fact, I still don't have it but it should be OK now. My lawyer told me that "the fact you gave birth outside the hospital is something that hugely irritates everyone". Outside of the hospital, like giving birth in a hospital is the default. I won't bore you with the whole story but it was horrible. Not quite as horrible as a hospital would have been though. I think that birth is one of the big feminist issues, but one that has been largely left behind by feminism, until recently.

[1littlebit]

exactly! telling women that the is only one 'real or right' choice for where to give birth is about as far from feminism as it gets. although i have noticed that there are many women who say that they are not feminists ... this is another thing i don't understand. why would you not want women to have a choice? i don't understand why a woman would not be a feminist. is there something about this i am not understanding? to me feminism is about a woman's right to make her own choices in her life, her body, her spirit, etc. how is someone not in favor of this?

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens

Well... I would like some help on that one too, because I might be missing something, and if that is the case, I would certainly be very interested in some new reading material. Perhaps even mentioning those I was thinking of might be controversial but indeed, they are the only philosophers I can think of who are not misogynist - Marx and Engels.

Hmm, Engels was the one who wrote about the origin of women's subjugation being in non-communist society, right?
Yes, here we go. I knew there had to be some dirt. This article is rather trite but notifies us of the unsurprising fact that Engels behaved just like every other 19th century man with money
I don't know much about Marx, though I do know that in the days of Communist revolutions women's rights were explicitly sidelined as irrelevant: when class-based oppression ceased, then so would sex-based oppression, automatically.
Also, I don't like the Communist emphasis on work outside the home as the path to equality for all. I think that that's just the other side of the patriarchal/protestant work ethic coin. I mean, if your meaning in life is based on work, how is that inherently against anything in a patriarchal/capitalist society? Where is the emphasis on home life? On love, friendship, intuitive knowing, respect for nature, balance, emotional health, etc. etc. all the things that patriarchal society gives women responsibility for and then reviles?
I don't know if that's Marx though, since I've only actually read excerpts of him Though I do remember being struck by how little he seemed to differ in his basic attitude about the world from other men of his time.

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

what i don't get is the perspective of some people (feminists included) that consider some of my beliefs and practices anti feminist. i am a SAHM b/c i choose to be... but some people think this is an insult to feminists... huh? i have a choice... i made my choice... thats the point of feminism IMO. I don't understand why some people consider not using birth control, opting for out of hospital or drug free births, SAHMing, extended BFing etc. anti feminist. i actually think that birth is a huge feminist issue and anyone who believes advocating for our right to birth at home, vaginally, with our intervention etc as anti feminist is totally missing the point.

same for extended BFing, AP, and other things that 'tie me down' ... i see these as huge women's rights issues... the right to NIP, pump at work, extended maternity leave etc are not demeaning to women... at least IMHO they are empowering, and they are choices we should have the right to make. what do you all think?

Totally agree!

Originally Posted by MittensKittens

I absolutely agree. The right to self determination includes the right to stay at home with your children, of course. It wouldn't be a choice if you HAD TO work outside the home, right? Unfortunately, deciding to be a SAHM seems to be something that is met with an awful lot of resistance today, and I personally see that as something that is going to turn into a feminist issue.

Birth rights are so very important to me, especially after my recent experiences with the lack of them. I had a UC, and was told by SO MANY PEOPLE that I should have "just gone to the hospital" like "normal women" do. I had huge trouble getting the birth certificate. In fact, I still don't have it but it should be OK now. My lawyer told me that "the fact you gave birth outside the hospital is something that hugely irritates everyone". Outside of the hospital, like giving birth in a hospital is the default. I won't bore you with the whole story but it was horrible. Not quite as horrible as a hospital would have been though. I think that birth is one of the big feminist issues, but one that has been largely left behind by feminism, until recently.

So true. Glad to hear that your legal situation is looking up, btw!

[MittensKittens]

Sure, I am totally with you on many of those points. I have also seen first hand that the introduction of communism does not shatter the basis of patriarchy, or even class society for that matter. In practice, communism often takes away choice, rather than offering it. This is one of the many issues I have with the concept of communism. If you ask me about the issues I have with capitalism, I'll have to write a novel though .

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens

Sure, I am totally with you on many of those points. I have also seen first hand that the introduction of communism does not shatter the basis of patriarchy, or even class society for that matter. In practice, communism often takes away choice, rather than offering it. This is one of the many issues I have with the concept of communism. If you ask me about the issues I have with capitalism, I'll have to write a novel though .

Hehe, I'm with you about capitalism. And in fact, would communism in itself be such a bad thing? Or is it only a bad thing when grafted onto a pre-existing capitalist sexist society? Or when theorized and put into practice by men whose worldview is really no different than that of the capitalists?

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by ursusarctos

Hehe, I'm with you about capitalism. And in fact, would communism in itself be such a bad thing? Or is it only a bad thing when grafted onto a pre-existing capitalist sexist society? Or when theorized and put into practice by men whose worldview is really no different than that of the capitalists?

I only have real life experience with communism grafted onto an ex colonial, former feudal system (Korea). I can tell you that that ain't pretty. However, having been to both parts of this country (communist north, capitalist south) I can honestly say that - not commenting on other aspects of both societies - both halves are equally misogynist. In different ways, but definitely equally.

[1littlebit]

so are there any gov. and economic set ups that aren't misogynist? i have issues with capitalism and communism... but then i don't think following any system 100% is a good idea... a combination of different aspects from each makes more sense IMO

[princesstutu]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

so are there any gov. and economic set ups that aren't misogynist?

It's the ppl enacting the set ups that are misogynist, which lends problems to the set ups. I think if you get non-misogynist ppl to run governments, you get non-misogynist governments (after work to overcome difficulties presented by the old ways of doing things).

Of course, that doesn't exist anywhere in the world, I don't think. Not yet, anyway.

Are there any good books written about socialism by women?

And, wait...I just remembered: anarchy isn't misogynist. Altho, that doesn't mean anarchists can't be.

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by princesstutu

It's the ppl enacting the set ups that are misogynist, which lends problems to the set ups. I think if you get non-misogynist ppl to run governments, you get non-misogynist governments (after work to overcome difficulties presented by the old ways of doing things).

Exactly. I think the reason capitalism and communism haven't worked out is due to the attitudes of the people making up the system. Doesn't matter what kind of political structure you theoretically have, if you worship power and money and selfishness, misogyny, and disregard for the natural world/cycles are rewarded then you're going to get a pretty f***ed up system.

And yeah, anarchism probably goes along the same lines. Selfish, misogynist anarchists out of touch with nature will result in anarchy that doesn't work out.
It isn't inherently misogynist though, you're right. In fact there's even anarchafeminism.
As for feminist socialism, there have been many feminist socialists and I think they used to be more intertwined in the 70s (at least Germaine Greer's earlier work was socialist and feminist), though I can't remember any names.
Oh interesting, I just read the article I linked to:

In modern times anarcha-feminism has been noted for its heavy influence on ecofeminism. "Ecofeminists rightly note that except for anarcha feminist, no feminist perspective has recognized the importance of healing the nature/culture division."

I usually identify myself as an ecofeminist but it seems not all that separate from anarchafeminist...
It also seems that voluntary (not institutional) socialism is part of a.f.:

They refer to the creation of a society, based on cooperation, sharing, mutual aid, etc. as the "feminization of society."

[transformed]

so my husband and I were having a discussion last night about how our fathers are calm, cool and collected and our mothers are crazy as loons. () I was trying to articulate that it was how society wants us to view women but I really didnt have much to ride on. I couldn't articulate myself at.all. I didnt even really know what I was talking about - I just had a feeling that he was wrong. (Even though I think these women are crazy often.)

Anyone have any info? I am looking to explore this topic further. perhaps a book?

I think one of the hardest thins about branching out and learning about feminism, and women is that I, myself am still inherently brainwashed and that is a lot to contend with. 28 years of it. but I can see myself grow in spurts.

[princesstutu]

transformed, I have no book ideas, but hopefully someone else will. I'd love to read a book or two on that topic.

I was discussing that very issue with my father a couple weeks ago. Men are socialized to view women as crazy and then when an actual crazy woman comes into their lives, they blow off her craziness as something expected. Women are socialized to expect the males who like them to be mean to them and so it can take a while for many women to understand that they're being abused (if they see it at all).

It's all a trap to keep us unevolved.

[barefootmama0709]

I feel that my views of feminism are somewhat different than the traditional-after all, I am by choice a stay-at-home mom and I do many traditional "mom" things. However, I feel that true feminism recognizes that a woman is equally important no matter what role she decides to take and a feminist need not reject the traditional female role-I don't feel repressed because I chose this path; I was not forced into it.

[greenmamapagan]

Originally Posted by barefootmama0709

I feel that my views of feminism are somewhat different than the traditional-after all, I am by choice a stay-at-home mom and I do many traditional "mom" things. However, I feel that true feminism recognizes that a woman is equally important no matter what role she decides to take and a feminist need not reject the traditional female role-I don't feel repressed because I chose this path; I was not forced into it.

Two threads that always seem to come up next to each other in my subscriptions box are this one and one about "traditional home-making" and personally (although I think it's funny) I don't see any discrepancy in that

[umami_mommy]

[Hazelnut]

I really value the work I do at home. I feel it's society that doesn't. That being said, I would never want a women who would rather go to work to stay at home. And for me, the only part that feels in discord with that my feminism is the financial dependence that results. Whether or not I trust my spouse, that position has not served women well. However I think there are solutions to that that do not involve my running off to work full-time. Maternity leave, paternity leave, work flexibility., part-time work. Heck I have part-time work and I can barely do it with my dh's FT job. He's not in a high powered job by any means and his hours are still long. Where it gets murkier and more confusing for me is staying at home beyond the early years. By that I don't mean that I disapprove or it's wrong or unfeminist. I just think it becomes stickier for women, at least in society as it is now.

[princesstutu]

That is exactly why I have an issue with capitalism. It is inherent within capitalism to oppress, whether it's the oppression of women, children, men, or the planet.

A woman should not have to suffer within her society and then suffer moreso simply b/c she chose the role of continuing the human population. What we allow as normal in society would represent mental dysfunction in an individual. I'm not sure why it's so hard for most ppl to understand that and get motivated to do something about it.

I used to think bucking societal norms by taking my children everywhere a revolutionary (if not exhausting) act, but...I'm thinking it's time to advance the revolutionary aspects of motherhood beyond simply doing the opposite of "mainstream" mothers.

I don't have any ideas, yet, tho. Maybe this pregnancy will inspire me.

[amitymama]

Just reviving this thread, glad to see it here on MDC. I haven't been on here in quite awhile, mainly because I could't find many like-minded radfems to chat to. Now I might be lured back in if this thread gets more active!

So, hello.

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by amitymama

Just reviving this thread, glad to see it here on MDC. I haven't been on here in quite awhile, mainly because I could't find many like-minded radfems to chat to. Now I might be lured back in if this thread gets more active!

So, hello.

Hi

What have you all been up to lately in terms of activism etc? Me not much, other than attending a lactivist demonstration.

[amitymama]

I'm attending a conference on feminism in London in October and hope to get more involved with some more hands-on activism through contacts I make there. I've also just started writing a book about feminism and motherhood so that will keep me busy for quite awhile!

Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.

As for whether I'm "out" as a feminist...very much so! I'm not constantly walking around talking about it or anything but my friends and family all know I'm pretty into feminist issues. If they didn't know before, they knew when I walked around at a family gathering with my "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt on when I was 7 months pregnant last summer.

[MittensKittens]

That sounds great. I haven't been to London in a long while, but I am glad to hear that feminism is alive and well over there. Does the conference have any particular theme or subject?

Haven't read the book, but it sounds good. The problem with living in third world countries is that it is tricky to order books in other languages, particularly that kind of book.

Originally Posted by amitymama

I'm attending a conference on feminism in London in October and hope to get more involved with some more hands-on activism through contacts I make there. I've also just started writing a book about feminism and motherhood so that will keep me busy for quite awhile!

Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.

As for whether I'm "out" as a feminist...very much so! I'm not constantly walking around talking about it or anything but my friends and family all know I'm pretty into feminist issues. If they didn't know before, they knew when I walked around at a family gathering with my "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt on when I was 7 months pregnant last summer.