any radical feminists on MDC? - Page 14

[punkrockmomma]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens 

We had a run-in with gender stereotyping today, and I am feeling particularly lost write now. You can read about it on my blog here http://www.writeaboutbirth.com/index.php/gender-stereotyping-can-you-free-your-kids-from-it/rambling/ if you have the patience. 

How do we free ourselves from this? It sucks so badly.

I've been battling this since my DD went into daycare, when I went back to school. Unfortunately for her she has a mama who is very feminine in some ways,I love the color pink and I am very feminine in how I dress, but I refuse to wear makeup and I hate many, many things that are stereotypically feminine, and my DD seems to be following in her mother's footsteps, ie being feminine yet being herself (for now anyway). Some of the ways that I have tried to express my morals and values about societal gender roles is by reading my DD "pedagogical" stories. The ones that I have read to her so far are "Princess Boy" (this one is my personal favorite), "It's Okay to Be Different", and "William's Doll". Ultimately, my goal is to reinforce to her that gender roles are socially  constructed, just like society itself, and that societal roles and rules aren't facts of nature; they can change as humans and society evolve, and are fluid not concrete. 

What I find fascinating and ultimately disturbing in respect to western culture is how in many other cultures around the world gender roles aren't rigid they are more fluid, and transgender individuals have an accepted, opposed to ostracized, place in society, and in some cases are considered holy or sacred. I find this subject both fascinating, and disturbing. At the college I go to I have the option of taking a class called "Gender Diversity" that explores this issue even further, and I plan on taking it at some point before graduate, so that I can learn more about it.

I'm right with you MittensKittens. I totally understand what you are getting at. 

[princesstutu]

Ooops!  I posted and jetted, again.  It happens.  Thanks for replying, everyone!

Since I got that anti-capitalism post out, I've made headway on my businesses.  I have 3 main ones: life coach (of sorts, more of a telephone cheering squad who also offers clear perspective when needed), continuing to offer my parenting classes, and becoming a fortune teller at farmers markets. ;)  That last one is simply for the fun of it.  Also, I've taken my jewelry-making to another level and have my first order! 

I worked for non-profits.  It's not my thing.  I was a community organizer for a bit here in CA and I found it highly depressing after a while.  So many "progressives" are not as spiritually progressive as I need in order to be around them all day.  I don't want my daily life (and the daily life of my baby, who is with me where ever I work since she's been born) surrounded by anger and war mentalities.  Got burnt out really quickly with that.  Not enough love in the industry...and it *is* an industry.  So, I just pushed myself (b/c why be my own impediment any longer?) and made some progress.  I'm really proud of myself! 

Also, since I'm a writer, I've written a couple of pieces that I want to submit, but now I just need to find the gumption for all that. ;)  One step at a time.  I'm walking, no matter how slowly.

Now, to something a bit more controversial, huh?
 

Originally Posted by Toposlonoshlep 

Hi Princess!

I want to introduce another perspective on the issue, one of a woman who is pro-life, but considers herself to be very involved with women's rights. I don't call myself a feminist (because I believe that the feminism of the 70s is dead, unfortunately, and because I don't like "isms" or "ists" in general), but I do make life decisions based on my awareness of patriarchal schemes and historical control. Now, back to the issue at hand. Although I consider myself to be a liberal on other political issues, the reason I never belonged to a political party is that there is one issue I just don't agree with. And this is it. Have you ever considered that the people who are pro-life (other than the religious nuts who are..well, extremists) may feel this way for reasons other than they don't think that what a woman does with her body and life should be up to her? I certainly believe that. But my conflict is that I feel that from the moment a child is conceived (actually, possibly even before that if you consider my spiritual inclinations) it is a human being. It is a person, an innocent being, that just HAPPENS to need a body within which to develop enough to be born. The theory that it is a woman's body is lost on me, as it is not a woman's arm, leg, ear, or fingernail. It is a separate being brought into existence residing INSIDE the woman. To me, killing a baby (and to me, a baby is a baby from the day it is conceived regardless of whether you call it a zygote, embryo, or fetus. Those are scientific names for a child in a certain stage of development. Saying it is not yet a human is like saying a 5 year old is not yet a human because she is not as developed as a 7 year old.) is murder. It doesn't make a difference to me whether you stab a person in front of you or within you, just like it doesn't make a difference how old the person is. I don't mean any disrespect, and I don't want to bring judgement into it. Just wanted to offer my views and possibly another perspective since you said you couldn't understand. Abortion, as I see it, is not a right, no more than murder is. It has nothing to do with feminism ro self-empowerment. It is a separate issue and I wish people would remove it from bundles of political views which have thus far guided our country on it typical path. Peace!

Hi!  Thanks for sharing your perspective with me.  I hear you, I understand what you're saying, I still don't understand the mentality.  I'll explain more further.
 

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

As far as I am aware, MDC does not host abortion debates, for good reason. The last thing I want to hear on the 4th anniversary of my abortion is you calling me a murderer.

I'm sorry you felt that way, Adaline's Mama.  I hope my actions right now are not dredging up more emotional pain for you, but I do want to address the post since it was addressed to me.  I don't think she was calling you a murderer.  I think the problem with discussing things like this is that we take personal what people say about our choices.  Never take anything anyone says personal.  Even if it's about you!  People speak of and for themselves, only.  Even when we call ourselves advocating for others, we are speaking for ourselves.  Much love!

Originally Posted by Mama Soltera 

Oops, I forgot to add that my point in talking about "her body" is to say that it is the right of no one but her to decide if she is willing and able to put her body through all of that. Forcing a woman to do it would be a crime, imo.

I totally agree.  In a society such as ours, where women are still considered and treated as property (of a man, of the state, whatever), this liberty we have to create our lives the way we'd like to (as much as it is possible) is an important one.  I actually think that religions that impose beliefs about what a woman's life and body are for (the family, to procreate, etc.) are passing on an abusive message.  More on that below.

Originally Posted by Toposlonoshlep 

I don't expect people to accept anything they don't feel comfortable with. I am sorry my opinion seems extreme and that it hurts people's feelings, but it is my genuine opinion, just as pro-choice is yours. I find pro-choice beliefs to be inaccurate, hurtful, and upsetting. But I live with the legality of abortion daily. That's the beauty of opinions. They CAN'T be inaccurate.That's the beauty of America, as well. We have differences of points of view. I was offering another perspective in regards to how SOME (myself included) may consider themselves to be feminists without sharing the popular feminist abortion view. I disagree that a blastocyst and a young embryo are extremely different from a toddler. That is not what I believe spiritually. By nature, my spiritual/intellectual beliefs are right for me. They may not be for you. I wasn't trying to convert anyone to them. I was stating them to make it clear how a pro-life feminist views the topic. I respect you and your point of view and did not want to hurt anyone's feelings. I was just being honest. I didn't say what you assert in the last two sentences, so I don't feel I need to defend it. 

I am not going to debate your own beliefs with you unless you want me to.  hahaa!  I will suggest, though, that when we think of life on a more spiritual note (as I do, as well), wouldn't we agree that a spirit is NOT a body and can inhabit another body, therefore making the body non-vital to life, from a spiritual perspective when we are talking about when life begins, etc.? 

For instance, I know my kids hung around me before they invaded (haha!) my body.  I invited a few of them in, actually.  So, I jest by saying "invaded".  Because I know spirit exists outside of the material realm, I don't have to worry if I decide I am not willing to create the opportunity for a spirit to come into the world/material life through my body.  I can speak with spirit and ask for understanding about my feelings. 

I think to act like it is my responsibility to host a life I am not willing and/or ready to support represents a lack of understanding about how life works on the spiritual level.  Physical life is a privilege and an honor and a choice.  That is my spiritual belief.  As such, I am not beholden to offer anyone the opportunity to become my child.  And, spirit understands.  That is the point of free will.  One of them, anyway. 

To say abortion is murder is to need to explain who is at fault for miscarriages.  Both are abortions, technically.  One spontaneous, the other not so spontaneous.  It is so easy to blame a woman, but who gets blamed otherwise?  If we look through time, we can see that women used to get blamed for both.  We can see that they sometimes still are.  When we teach women that it is their sacred duty and position to bring life into the world, miscarriage can carry a LOT of weight to the spirits of the women who have them.  Hence a society full of women who never quite heal from whatever pregnancy outcome they had. 

It is enough that women want to have babies.  We don't need spiritual beliefs to indoctrinate a level of fear into something that is a biological happening.  Women are entitled to feel however they want about what happens in their lives.  We don't need legal systems that infringe upon their opportunities to be able to feel however they want to feel about what happens in their lives. 

And, that is why I am pro-choice.  Because I don't get to decide for you what spiritual and emotional path your life takes.  That is your right and I respect that.  So, I will not vote for a lack of options in your life.  Which is what pro-life legislature, which stems from pro-life beliefs, does.   It lessens the spiritual and emotional options in a woman's life.

Are you telling me that your spirituality supports limiting the spiritual and emotional options in people's lives?  Maybe it does.  I cannot relate or understand, if so, and that's okay with me.  I understand religions having rules for folks to adhere to.  Sometimes, we spiritually expand best within material limitations.  For a time.  But, if I look at the Big Picture, I see that God always seems to say, "You have free will."

Because of that, I will not be okay with telling a woman she has no free will when her egg invites in some sperm. 
 

[Mama Soltera]

Very eloquentlly said, tutu. Thanks for sharing your POV with us.

[LittleGriff]

Just discovered this thread! (Was browsing punkrockmomma's posts and look, and here's the ever eloquent, founding member, princesstutu!)

I do consider myself a radical feminist, though odds are my definition won't quite fit with yours. (Darn definitions, always interfering with communication.) I was surprised by the intense reaction to a recent post (ok, it was an angry vent, I admit! I think we get one every 4 years ; ) I made on the Working Parent board and so was excited to see this thread with the term "radical" in the title. I'm still working on the back posts but wanted to say hello and thanks for being here. Looking forward to catching up.

In my mind the "radical" term applies to me because I'm always pissing someone off no matter how hard I try to censor what I perceive to be areas of potential offense. (Or as the director of admissions at the business school I attended - see, I'm a raving capitalist which may not sit well with some of you already - "the problem with you is that you're too direct and aggressive" which was a laugh when you are a sometimes timid female research nerd in a 65% male class, all determined to be investment bankers.) Moderation has never been my forte, but I see its value and am working on it.

As for "feminist", I consider myself a radical humanist really, but I dislike the way feminist is used as an insult, so happily wear it with pride, even if the particulars don't always fit.

Mainly, I dislike useless boundaries and rules and want to be seen as a human being above all, plain and simple. I have worked in a virtually all male environment for the last decade. I decided if you can't beat 'em, join 'em in college. (Not men, but the powerful and rich ... who do generally happen to be men.) My career is the right intellectual fit for me, but I think rectifying the gender imbalance in my line of work would be a good thing for the world and is actually a huge reason I stay in it even when days/months/years go by when I think it's too miserable to carry on. If it was already 50/50 women here, ironically, I might be inclined to call it a day and go do something that brought me joy. (Or maybe if it was 50/50 women, I would have joy in what I do! Not sure.)

But despite my penchant for annoying people with my opinions, I have an overwhelming urge that everyone like me. So I'm usually either offending or apologizing - phew. Working on that too. Though in which direction, I'm not sure!

Anyway ... hi!

Edited by LittleGriff - 7/28/11 at 2:03pm

[princesstutu]

Hi! You know, I might need to hang around more "raving capitalists" so...Welcome! LOL

Ah, terminology.  I almost decided to be a "womanist" instead of a "feminist" (I am definitely not a humanist...not in the technical way, but one never knows if people mean in technically b/c people like to use "humanist" to mean someone who values all humans in a kind of reference to "feminist", which is not what it means, so...lol!), but I feel that so often, we like to abandon language before the work is even complete and then we have to go through the "recreating the wheel" phase because we have to constantly help form a frame of reference for what we are now calling ourselves.

Which never really works b/c people tend to believe whatever they want to believe and/or whatever they're told. 

So, I stick with "feminist".  Are there many kinds?  Well, that's okay with me.  I think, though, that basically people can understand what I mean when I say I'm a feminist (I think females are not only not inherently inferior to males, but we are also just as important as males and deserve to be treated as such on all levels of society) and people who can't understand it I mostly think are just trying not to.  Which I'm also okay with.  I like to know where people stand from the gate so that we don't have to waste too much time in miscommunication. ;)

[LittleGriff]

Yes, I may have an unnecessary discomfort with labels, partly due to personal experience with them gone awry. When I didn't eat meat I didn't call myself a vegetarian. I think this is the first time in my life I've referred to myself as a capitalist. It is useful to have a frame of reference but I still always feel uneasy using such terminology on myself, particularly since my beliefs are always evolving. (After an 8 year "break" I started eating meat again ...) I just want to be free to be me! ha.

I am most likely not using the technical term for humanist. (I looked up both humanism and feminism after making my prior post.) I was thinking of it in terms of, as Wikipedia put well: comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition. This does potentially encompass feminism as well as other -isms. I certainly don't disagree with your phrasing of feminism, princesstutu, (that is, I agree that that's the appropriate definition and that it represents my beliefs) but by stating that women are equal to men I feel like I'm affirming that it is up for debate. And it just isn't, period. So I don't like to start the conversation there. Sort of like, I don't go around calling myself a "sky's-blue-ist". (Well, duh.) Or how I worry about where the line on talking about racial discrimination improves attitudes or makes them worse (by repeating bad ideas which should be sent to the grave pronto). I never use the word "tomboy" (which implies "boy" characteristics are of greater value). I never say I kept my name when I got married (because it emphasize that action as an aberration when I would like it not to be) but sometimes I like to remark that my husband chose to keep his (to catch people's attention). I dislike "women's issues" as a category (because it specializes what is a fundamental human problem that should be of concern to all involved).  And I will never tell my daughter she can "be anything she wants". (Well, duh. (But also, unfortunately, no human being can be anything s/he wants, goes the little voice in my head, so why not be more specific.))

And more than anything, I'm striving to live by idea that actions speak louder than words. (Which doesn't do any good on a internet forum, so I've got to find the right words.) So I don't have to worry about definitions.

I am the daughter of a classic 2nd wave feminist and Women's Studies was the first class I signed up for in undergrad, and I spent one semester at an all girls college. That's well over a decade ago now, so the specifics are a bit fuzzy, but ultimately I got very burned out on the victim language of everything I was tuned into on that front, as well as the disregard for statistics and good empirical data. (Hence my obsession with the rejection of "supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition".) And the limited appetite for true debate and dissent (as is common in many well-meaning movements. people are people.) And though I never thought of myself as NOT a feminist, I didn't want to talk about it in that language anymore. I decided to go live life (as it happens, choosing a field and professional that was nearly devoid of women but certainly not for that reason) and see what happened. I wanted to feel powerful and free and, ironically, the time I spent wearing the official "feminist" label made me feel the opposite because the conversation felt so negative and narrow.

And as generic as humanism may sound, for me it is the basis of my life approach. The experience of women is of particular interest to me, obviously, but since I have a place in my heart for individuals of all stripes, sizes and aptitudes, "humanism" is a better starting point for me than putting together a laundry list of the human categories I am especially concerned about. And casting the conversation in terms of rational logic and data rather than unverified assertions is critical for me.

But certainly, I feel like I have a notion of what someone means when they say "feminist" and I say "right on". And having lived in an atmosphere nearly devoid of women for the last decade has given me a whole new perspective on the issues I was thinking about as a much younger woman. (to say the least! phew.) So I'm feeling ok to put the feminist label back on. But mostly I'm ready to talk to other women again about what's going on and what to do about all of this. Cuz it's been a long, lonely trek I've been on.

Edited by LittleGriff - 7/30/11 at 9:31pm

[Mama Soltera]

Hi littlegriff. It's so nice to have your voice added here.

[princesstutu]

I agree.  It's nice to have your voice here.  And, I feel like I completely understand where you're coming from.  I think I've been on that path although I didn't stop at all the places you did.  For a while, I wanted to find a term that said what "feminist" says...plus more.  In the end, I found that I was fine with "feminist" and drew a little closer to it after dealing with folks who claim to think all humans are equal, and then something racist comes out their mouths. 

I've learned that the labels don't mean so much, so if I want to pick one to stand under, I'll do so simply b/c it makes life a wee bit easier, not because I necessarily expect us to see eye-to-eye on most everything.

I actually think it makes perfect sense for any member of a blatantly and across-board oppressed group to be a capitalist.  And, there can be many ways to look at what makes someone a capitalist.  I mean, technically, we're all capitalists.   Like it or not.

I'm the daughter of Black Nationalists turned African-American.  I have bitterness on tap.

[Mama Soltera]

So, kind of a random subject: Is Patricia Cornwell a total racist or what? I had never read her before, never had any interest. But one of her books came into my posession and I thought, "Why not? Let's find out why she's always on the best sellers list." I'm only 70 or so pages in and I'm pretty appalled at all the racism. I'm not talking about racist characters, I'm talking about her. I write fiction as well and I know the difference. If any of you have read her I would appreciate your feedback. I'm pretty disturbed that this is what America is buying. When are we ever going to reject the same old racist stuff and finally leave it behind? What's even more frustrating is that it's likely most if not all of her readers somehow don't even notice it.

[Mama Soltera]

Just wanted to add that I also found the book dedication to Billy Graham (sp) odd.

[hildare]

mama s, wikipedia says she's a descendant of harriet beecher stowe.  (??)

then..  i am playing in computer land, and i was just going to google her name and the term racism... just for kicks.  apparently google has some cease and desist orders to remove results from the list?  i have never seen this before.   the statement is "in response to a legal request submitted to google, we have removed x results from this page (the search results from those terms)...  that is odd esp with the prominence of the info about harriet beecher stowe on the wikipedia page.  i guess just from lazy googling and not having read her work (i don't like crime novels) that she's a racist and her pr folks/agents are working to negate this legally? 

[Sukhada]

I'm curious about this thread...although I'm not entirely sure I'm a radical feminist. I was at one point, but I found that not all of the issues that were important to me were well supported by feminism. Being pregnant, I am aware of how we construct pregnancy as a gendered experience. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that pregnancy and birth are the exclusive domains of women. I get a little irked by referring to pregnancy as exclusively a women's issue and where that leaves pregnant people who do not identify as women.

[Mama Soltera]

Welcome Sudkada. You sound like a radical feminist to me, but everyone here has their own definition.

Hildare, I don't think her being a descendant of HBS means in any way that she's not a racist, kwim? That is a very strange search result.

Just as an example of what I'm talking about in her novel: she has a scene where a man who is interacting with a woman he doesn't know but is attracted to (both are white) goes through autopsy photos and picks one out to lay in front of her (for fun). It is a drug dealer described as a "young black male" who is lying on the autopsy table, dead of course, naked, with his chest open and organs out  of his body and then she talks about his very "prominent organ" that must have meant a lot to him when he was alive, etc. There is just all kinds of things going on there... and that's just one example.

[Mama Soltera]

Sorry Sukhada, I tried to edit to fix the spelling of your screen name but it wouldn't let me. :)

[hildare]

Originally Posted by Mama Soltera 

Welcome Sudkada. You sound like a radical feminist to me, but everyone here has their own definition.

Hildare, I don't think her being a descendant of HBS means in any way that she's not a racist, kwim? That is a very strange search result.

Just as an example of what I'm talking about in her novel: she has a scene where a man who is interacting with a woman he doesn't know but is attracted to (both are white) goes through autopsy photos and picks one out to lay in front of her (for fun). It is a drug dealer described as a "young black male" who is lying on the autopsy table, dead of course, naked, with his chest open and organs out  of his body and then she talks about his very "prominent organ" that must have meant a lot to him when he was alive, etc. There is just all kinds of things going on there... and that's just one example.

i thought it was kind of like... putting it in one of the first paragraphs on wikipedia (i assumed it was a pr stunt/agent doing it or something like that) was sort of her saying : "LOOK!  I can't be a racist!  my ANCESTOR was an abolitionist!"  lol..   i did find some people that were complaining about the dialogue/dialect used when non white people were speaking, and another thing about a book with a nightwatchman who behaved in a stereotypical way. 

but, you know, i've been complaining to anybody who will listen about the book The Help, because it's such a bestseller but so, so, so ickily done in a way that i feel is condescending and trying-not-to-be-racist but actually very much so.  popularity of an author is no indication that her/his work isn't sexist or racist.

[Mama Soltera]

Oh, that makes sense. Interesting. That probably is what including that information is all about.

It is interesting to think about how even in things like literature we keep feeding old patterns and ideas and inequalities, and in writing about them and letting them slide while we read about them, we keep them alive. Unfortunatey, often things that push against all of that do not sell. .

[hildare]

ok.. here's a discussion question for you all. 

how are you raising your children in a feminist way?  are you raising your children to be feminists themselves?  how do you teach this? 

<3

[Mama Soltera]

Originally Posted by hildare 

ok.. here's a discussion question for you all. 

how are you raising your children in a feminist way?  are you raising your children to be feminists themselves?  how do you teach this? 

<3

Oh, absolutely I am. We talk about sexism whenever it comes up. If there was an ad we passed by in the car or a movie I let them watch that I didn't agree with, we discuss it. Certain real life situations come up too. Unfortunately there are so many opportunites where it's appropriate to point it out and discuss it. I talk to them about equality and the past, how far we've come and how far we have to go, what they can do to make sure they're not contributing to sexism and patriarchy. Of course I explain it all in appropriate ways for their age levels, but they really do get it and are very aware. It's awesome.

[Cynthia Mosher]

Hi everyone! 

We have a new feature that allows forum members to create "clubs" of their own that have many of the same benefits of a forum, including multiple threads, a member's list, and group messaging. All tribes are invited to switch from the one-long-thread here in FYT to the new Social Groups. You can read more about it here. Let me know if you have any questions but please post to that thread so I can keep everything in one place. 

[Tropicalfever]

Hi everyone!

Has this thread closed or has it turned into a group ? Please let me kno thanks