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Originally Posted by calpurnia  quick question: what do you do when people say things like "you can have the pink one, because you're a girl!", or "look at her kicking! she's going to be a ballet dancer!" (or, blue = boy, kicking = footballer). do you nod & smile, or do you interject the other option? dd is only 11 months & we are getting SO MUCH of this from people we see a lot - friends, mothers in law etc... i don't know how much to let slide & how much to challenge.
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It depends on the moment how I'll react. If it's someone in passing or someone I know will just be jerkish about it, I'll let it slide. If it hits me on the right day I might give a snappy comeback. Other times I might give a quick fiery comeback, or maybe even give a mini-lecture.
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Originally Posted by MittensKittens
Another question for you all - on the "case against circumcision" board, I frequently read comments about how society protects our daughters, but is biased against our sons. It talks about institutional bias against men. While I am anti-circ, the way in which these comments are formulated rub me the wrong way. What are your opinions?
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This does drive me up a wall male circumcision and FGM are so different. If they were comperable it would be akin to cutting off the penis and then sewing it up to give a little hole to pee through. Ain't no bleepin' ballpark.
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Originally Posted by ursusarctos Actually I'm not sure about that. I wanted to agree at first, but actually I think that young single women without children are even less respected. In patriarchal society, if a woman is not defined by someone else (her husband, her father, her children) she does not have an identity. A woman who is not a wife, a daughter, a mother, a widow, or a nun is not categorizable in her own right, because she does not have a role. A woman without a "role", especially a young one, is a non-entity, not lableable, and therefore it is not necessary to treat her with respect. She's assumed to be waiting to acquire a "real" role (being a woman is not enough alone). At least a mother is not assumed to be a weak mindless sex object in quite the same way (no, mothers get to be madonnas! woohoo!  ).
Though I'm not a mother so I can't say with much authority, I'm just pointing out what I've observed. I do agree that single mothers (particularly young ones) are not respected - perhaps in different ways? I mean, on the one hand a woman gets a certain amount of "weight" as a mother that she does not have as simply a woman, but on the other hand if she's single she's not going about motherhood in the "right" way so there's obviously a lot of judgement about that, spoken or not. And if she's young she'll get the BS and patronizing/ignoring that is given to young women anyway. So yeah actually, I don't know. What is "not being respected"? Being actively disrespected or just being ignored and trivialized? Both I guess. Sigh.
So I guess that didn't really answer anything at all  I guess I feel like young women are the least respected members of society regardless of circumstances, and some things can make it worse, like being single or being a mother (and we all know how much society respects and looks out for mothers, regardless of ideals about motherhood  ). |
I seem to have missed the comment Hazelnut made, but I do agree with the "society needs to have a role to put a woman into" concept. It's really wierd being a non-category. I've been that one for years, before I was partnered and then after partnered being a stepmom (but not officially since we only fairly recently married). People don't know how to react to you, you don't fit in. I feel like I"m more accepted as an adult now that I'm "really" married and am a "real" mom, but it's different.
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Originally Posted by MittensKittens ITA. The idea that your partner is a 'saint" for sticking with you if you are "stupid enough" to become pregnant at a young age is utterly repulsive and very insulting. I am sorry you are having to deal with that prejudice.
Something I have come across quite a bit is how lots of people in a business or political context will call women by their first name, while men attending the same meeting have somehow automatically acquired the right to be referred to as Mr So and So. Perhaps this is a minor point, but I find it very downgrading.
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On the first point, with how young moms are treated, I know I used to be one of those that looked on them with scorn, though from a different perspective than average society). For me, for a long time, having kids at all was akin to putting onself in prison for a man who wasn't worth it (issues from upbringing). So I'd look at a young mom and wonder why she'd willingly get into that trap, no man was worth it. But, I've learned and evolved and am working much harder at getting to know the individual/situation before placing a judgement on it. Well let me rephrase that, I do snapjudge in my mind, but then I call myself on it (usually) and rethink that initial judgement.
Oh, yeah, that Mr So and So Vs Jill. Or better yet there are men and girls in the workplace.
I knew some older women in their 60-70's who still got called girls and they'd ask how old did they have to be to be a "woman" ya know?
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Originally Posted by Hazelnut I agree with this, both wrt to the circ issue and everything really. I am mostly discussing feminism or gender issues or even raising kids online rather than with irl acquaintances and friends, and in those communities this is an viewpoint I see a lot. I have three sons and gender roles and stereotypes do concern me, but I do not think that boys are at a disadvantage more than girls, and indeed I think they have less to fear and less discrimination to face. It shocks me actually, the hostility with which feminism is treated by some mothers. I think they really think it is an attack on boys and men, which I think is unfortunate.
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Sometimes I think that there's a different and more difficult responsibility with boys. How do we teach them to not only not be misogynists, but to empower them to do the right thing, overcome societal norms and call out their peers on it? IMO men calling other men out on sexism makes more an impression than a woman calling a man out on it.
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Originally Posted by 1littlebit
i am working on starting an organization geared towards helping these young women get the information and support they need. i think a good birth experience and a successful nursing relationship can be incredibly beneficial to someone whose pregnancy was unexpected. i want to give them the information they need to realize that they can do this, that they were made to be mothers, and that you don't have sell your kidney on the black market to afford a baby. the simplest, cheapest way to raise a baby is the natural way... most people just doesn't realize that b/c there aren't any commercials for it.
young moms get a raw deal. people assume they have no idea what they are talking about so just ignore their wishes. they are not given the same encouragement to have a natural birth, to breast feed, to co sleep etc. they are always told oh parenting is so hard without that. wth? thats the easy freaking way. washing bottles, buying formula, and CIO sound pretty darn hard to me. but apparently only older and wiser moms who are married and financially secure can do those things.  : breast milk is free, natural birth is cheaper then drugs or a c section, cribs are wicked expensive, and the hormones from bfing would be really helpful to a new mom with very little support. |
Awesome! Such a great idea, I'm glad to see this.
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Originally Posted by Arwyn I hear that a lot, quite explicitly. Like a friend of mine who refers to her "two toddlers: the little one and the big one". It drives me up the wall.
But I don't think that means it's easier to parent solo; I think it's just a reflection of patriarchy, using women to keep women down. The only domain allowed to a SAHM is the home, therefore she must be best/only good one in the home, the man must be incompetent, and that keeps her at home and the man in the public sphere. It's really insidious.
Although, there's the other angle where thanks to the patriarchy, a lot of men really DO suck in the domestic sphere, and I'm not sure where the line is between not bitching about one's guy to avoid perpetuating patriarchy, and agitating for change so that he carries his own load. The patriarchy is amazingly good at setting up double binds like that, where either way it wins and women lose.
Well, I think it exists because it's the flip side of the above: men can do no wrong, women can do no good. (I wrote a blog post once, in reply to a "quiz" for moms led to the answer "you're a bad mom"; every answer for the dads in mine was "you're a great dad".) If men don't participate in the home, it's just a shrug and an eyeroll and "boys will be boys"; if they do, they're super heroes deserving of medals and awards and ridiculous heaps of praise.
The only way I've figured out to change it is just by refusing to participate; men are supposed to do housework, and parent their children, and I refuse to either praise them for doing it or write them off for not.
I don't know how I would address the issue with a daughter, but it is one area where I think I'm benefited by being male-partnered: the Boychick learns how to behave, and what is expected of him, by having a dad who models full and equal responsibility in the house and in parenting, without expecting or receiving praise, excuses, or belittlement.
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OMG yes, if you're a woman and you bring your kid into work one day you're at best, a nuisance. If you're a man you're an amazing father! I too am of the mindset of not complimenting for somethign that should be standard. Of course that's my ideal when it comes to raising kids too, but I don't always meet it.
Now that it comes down to it, I reckon there was something else I wanted to say, but popped outta my head... ah well...
. What are the little, everyday examples of misogyny that you find most annoying? And what do you do to stop them there and then?
over.
: simply b/c I always thought it would be so difficult to be the only adult responsible for them or bringing in income, and yet they are successful. I don't run around saying that b/c I did imagine it would be repetitive and annoying 
. Although there are times when I think it might even be easier. My spouse is always parenting when home, but there are so many other areas of household responsibility where it is sometimes all me and I just think, wouldn't this be easier if I only had myself to consider? I recall another feminist mother telling me it was so much easier when she was single, b/c she didn't have to "take care" of her spouse or clear anything with him.
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