God's sacrifice- I just don't see it that way

[1hautemama]

I hear it often stated that God sacrificed his only son so that those who came to believe in him would have everlasting life...That's pretty close to the way it is said in the bible, I think. But, why/how would it be a sacrifice if Jesus rose from the dead three days later? It seems more like God loaned his son, then took him back...maybe the answer is plainly stated in the bible, but growing up as a child it was one of the many questions I had but was too scared to ask the elders.

[blessedwithboys]

jesus forfieted his earthy life for all time. if he ever came back to earth, it would negate the value of the ransom sacrifice.

[holyhelianthus]

I think of it this way- it wasn't Jesus' death but rather the amount of suffering he had to endure to atone for our sins. Could you imagine being a parent having to watch that? He felt all of our pain at once and couldn't be relieved of it. It hurts me (and also humbles me and makes me grateful) just to think about it and he's not even my son.

[blessedwithboys]

right, the sacrifice for God was not simply watching His son die...he knew full well he would resurrect him. the big sacrifice was watching the torturous way it happened plus the fact that Jesus was executed as an evil doer. that brougth reproach on
God's name, which was also a sacrifice for Him.

[notjustmamie]

I don't really agree that it was the torture. I think the sacrifice was 1) leaving heaven to live on earth for 30-some years, 2) not sinning while here (so that He was the perfect sacrificial lamb), and mostly 3) the separation/abandonment that happened upon His death (My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?)

I do agree that the resurrection was planned from day one. I think the separation is not a matter of time (just three days). I don't really know how "long" it was for Jesus, as I believe eternity/heaven and hell is without time. There are some scholars who say that everything for God happens in the present tense, so Jesus is dying all the time, separated all the time, resurrected all the time. That pretty much boggles my mind, though, so I won't try to offer any sort of further discussion there.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by notjustmamie

I think the separation is not a matter of time (just three days). I don't really know how "long" it was for Jesus, as I believe eternity/heaven and hell is without time. There are some scholars who say that everything for God happens in the present tense, so Jesus is dying all the time, separated all the time, resurrected all the time. That pretty much boggles my mind, though, so I won't try to offer any sort of further discussion there.

OT but I have often wondered how it was Christ atoned for all our sins when not all of us had been born or sinned yet and our lives weren't preset down to the T. A friend shared with me the theory above basically meaning Christ is still suffering for our sins. It boggles my mind as well.

[lilyka]

the verse says God gave his son . . .I don'ty know that it says sacrificed. nor have I ever heard it refered to as a sacrifice in my church. I have heard Gods love mentioned as a sacrificial love but that has another meaning all together. Just as a parent gives sacrificially to their children so does God give to us, an out pouring from every fiber of His being even when it is hard or costly.

I'll dig a little deeper when I have more time.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by magstphil

I think of it this way- it wasn't Jesus' death but rather the amount of suffering he had to endure to atone for our sins. Could you imagine being a parent having to watch that? He felt all of our pain at once and couldn't be relieved of it. It hurts me (and also humbles me and makes me grateful) just to think about it and he's not even my son.

Part of the story of the death of Jesus is God feeling the pain of all humanity in a way that differs from usual? Or am I misinterpreting.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

Part of the story of the death of Jesus is God feeling the pain of all humanity in a way that differs from usual? Or am I misinterpreting.

I'm kind of confused....

I was referring to the atonement in Gethsemane not his crucifixion. I was also referring to Christ not God (as I am LDS and we don't believe they are one in the same... sort of )

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by magstphil

I'm kind of confused....

I was referring to the atonement in Gethsemane not his crucifixion. I was also referring to Christ not God (as I am LDS and we don't believe they are one in the same... sort of )

I am way not up on this whole theological area, so forgive my confusion/confusing-ness -- I thought maybe I was getting a little lost in the pronouns there. So it's part of the story that Jesus felt all the pain of humanity prior to his death?

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

I am way not up on this whole theological area, so forgive my confusion/confusing-ness -- I thought maybe I was getting a little lost in the pronouns there. So it's part of the story that Jesus felt all the pain of humanity prior to his death?

Yes. He atoned for us in Gethsemane and then was taken to his crucifixion.

Being LDS though I do think we may have a different perspective? I'm not 100% on this. Here is a wiki article on it and also a scripture in Doctrine and Covenants highlighting what I was saying (and that D&C scripture is going to be confusing. Remember I said LDS don't believe Jesus and God are the same person... sort of. It's a bit complicated but yes this scripture is about Christ )

Sorry to take this so OT!

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by lilyka

the verse says God gave his son . . .I don'ty know that it says sacrificed. nor have I ever heard it refered to as a sacrifice in my church.

There is a doctrinal difference between Orthodox Christianity and most of the Western churches on the sacrifice/redemption issue. It is dealt with very thoroughly in The Dogma of Redemption by Anthony Khrapovitsky.

[zech13_9_goforgold]

The New Testament book of Hebrews talks a lot about Jesus' sacrifice for us as our High Priest. Over and over, the blood of bulls and goats was shed to attone for the peoples' sins. Yet, the blood of bulls and goats will never suffice (Hebrew 10:4). We needed an attonement of the same degree to our sins. Only God could make such a sacrifice, because only He is perfect. So, he came to earth as Jesus, God-with-flesh-on. The resurrection is God's seal that He approved of the sacrifice of Jesus. 1 Corinithians 15 says that without the resurrection, we would still be in our sins. Jesus is the first-fruit of those who will be resurrected. The sacrifice is the cost of our sins, and the resurrection is the stamp of approval.

[1hautemama]

Originally Posted by zech13_9_goforgold

The New Testament book of Hebrews talks a lot about Jesus' sacrifice for us as our High Priest. Over and over, the blood of bulls and goats was shed to attone for the peoples' sins. Yet, the blood of bulls and goats will never suffice (Hebrew 10:4). We needed an attonement of the same degree to our sins. Only God could make such a sacrifice, because only He is perfect. So, he came to earth as Jesus, God-with-flesh-on. The resurrection is God's seal that He approved of the sacrifice of Jesus. 1 Corinithians 15 says that without the resurrection, we would still be in our sins. Jesus is the first-fruit of those who will be resurrected. The sacrifice is the cost of our sins, and the resurrection is the stamp of approval.

Why are we still sinfull if the sacrifice and resurrection has atoned for our sins? And if our sins have been atoned for or paid for mankind, why is mankind required to become born again, or saved, or repent...Why must mankind be believers in order to be saved from Hell?

And, I still don't see the sacrifice...What was the loss? I can't buy the argument that he lives the pain of dying on the cross for eternity, or the pain of all mankind for eternity, or watching his son suffer for the pains of all mankind. If he was /is the Supreme Being, what stops him from ending human suffering?

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

There is a doctrinal difference between Orthodox Christianity and most of the Western churches on the sacrifice/redemption issue. It is dealt with very thoroughly in The Dogma of Redemption by Anthony Khrapovitsky.

We will talk about "Christ our Passover Lamb, who has been sacrificed," from 1 Corinthians. The idea is that all the animal sacrifices are inadequate to close the gap between us and God, because a passover lamb can in no way equal a human being. It's essentially the OT understanding of sacrifice taken as used for Christ.

As far as the OP goes, I think the sacrifice is that God humbled himself to become a man, with everything that went along with it - feeling the separation from God that we suffer, the pain of the Crucifixion, betrayal by his people, his denial by his friends...

Essentially, that all these things God made part of himself, eternally, so that we can be with him instead of alienated from him.

[genifer]

And, I still don't see the sacrifice...What was the loss?

It IS an amazing mystery. And I think God's mysteries are sometimes well always completely unsearchable... without his help. I do see it as a sacrifice bc Jesus gave up his complete... this is going to sound wierd or wrong so bear with me... He is still human. He gave up his being only One with God to become One with God and part human. So he's still God, but him coming to earth as a human, he sacrificed his privelaged (spelling is way off there, I know it!) position so that He can FEEL human suffering in the way we do. God as God can know human suffering, bc He IS all knowing, but how were we to believe him unless he came to earth to prove to us that he can understand our suffering? Now, I agree with anyone out there who will argue that God did Not need to prove ANY thing to us.. but for the sake of his grace and incredible mercy towards us, two qualities that he simply possesses, He did it. So, Jesus had a very priveledged position in the Grand scheme of things, he gave that up to become human like us... and from there, all the other stuff follows. It is complicated on the one hand but at the same time it is so brilliantly simple.

So His sacrifice was on the cross, but his sacrifice was also that he left his rightful place... as one with God and took on flesh. it wasnt just the sacrifice on the cross, it was the sacrifice of becoming human as well...

[Mary]

It never made sense to me. Obviously it does to many people. IMO it is a very convoluted story. The reality and the explaination do not add up for me. My husband has a theory that when Jesus chose to return to where he knew he would face execution and that he made a choice between running away or facing certain death for his beliefs and he chose to face the concequences for his beliefs. That, I can understand. That was a sacrifice of sorts. I think anything can be spun into a theological explanation after the fact. But, I am coming from a very different place. Jesus was executed- not exactly a literal sacrifice where he was privy to what was going on. Did he know the whole deal with god sacrificing him for the washing away of sins? It doesn't appear that way to me.

The only thing that helps me understand why anyone would believe you need to make sacrifices for wrong-doings goes back to older beliefs from a time when people would do anything to feel like they had control in their lives- sacrifices where how they 'pleased the gods'. Now, how god being the one doing the sacrificing (to himself) for the people without them (or the sacrifice) even knowing what was going on at that moment is beyond me. I've read the explanations and it simply doesn't compute in my brain. When I was a lukewarm believer it didn't compute either. I prayed to understand. Nothing.

[genifer]

See, this is simply where people differ bc it makes perfect sense to me and, well, I didnt have or know of any need to make myself feel better or have any kind of control in my life, bc belief in a soveriegn God who has complete control over my life, where I submit my will to His, thats me signing my control over to him... Im no longer seeking to be in control of my life. I take responsibility for my actions but as far as the things to happen to me... I give that over. AND Im responsible for forgiving others the exact way I was forgiven at the cross. Completely and totally and truely loving those who wrong me... the way Jesus did at the cross... I see it so clearly...

[Bluegoat]

[QUOTE=Mary;13674557] Jesus was executed- not exactly a literal sacrifice where he was privy to what was going on. Did he know the whole deal with god sacrificing him for the washing away of sins? It doesn't appear that way to me.
/QUOTE]

Certainly the executors didn't see the sacrificial aspect, but what makes you think Jesus didn't?

Sacrifice is a word here to describe a kind of theological truth in a traditional religious language - other explanations have been used at different times to describe the same thing. What it is really talking about is that our efforts to get to God don't work, God must bring us into his perfection, bearing our imperfections.

Many of the people of the ancient world thought such a thing was impossible - we could never get to God because we were imperfect, and perfection (God) would never corrupt itself with imperfection by coming to us.

[1hautemama]

Originally Posted by Mary

It never made sense to me. Obviously it does to many people. IMO it is a very convoluted story. The reality and the explaination do not add up for me. My husband has a theory that when Jesus chose to return to where he knew he would face execution and that he made a choice between running away or facing certain death for his beliefs and he chose to face the concequences for his beliefs. That, I can understand. That was a sacrifice of sorts. I think anything can be spun into a theological explanation after the fact. But, I am coming from a very different place. Jesus was executed- not exactly a literal sacrifice where he was privy to what was going on. Did he know the whole deal with god sacrificing him for the washing away of sins? It doesn't appear that way to me.

The only thing that helps me understand why anyone would believe you need to make sacrifices for wrong-doings goes back to older beliefs from a time when people would do anything to feel like they had control in their lives- sacrifices where how they 'pleased the gods'. Now, how god being the one doing the sacrificing (to himself) for the people without them (or the sacrifice) even knowing what was going on at that moment is beyond me. I've read the explanations and it simply doesn't compute in my brain. When I was a lukewarm believer it didn't compute either. I prayed to understand. Nothing.

I totally get you on that. There is an abundance of examples of people making sacrifices, that, to me, are greater than the "sacrifice" God allegedly made. One that comes to mind is the self immolation of Thich Quang Duc, the Buddhist Monk, to bring attention to S. Vietnam's persecution of Buddhists. Several more monks followed suit soon after. Who were the persecutors? Christians. Oh the irony...