Puppy or older dog?

[Momily]

I talked today to a breeder who has a puppy we might be interested in. I had sent out some inquiries to see if any Sheltie breeders had older dogs they were looking to rehome (I'm still on the fence with the "Do I feel comfortable with a rescue, or do I want a dog from a reputable breeder" question). I had asked about older dogs because I work full time and figured that even with a dog walker that's a long time for a little puppy to be alone.

Anyway, this breeder had a 10 month old bitch who she kept for show but turned out not to get one of it's molars which is apparently only a problem in the show ring? She told me she wasn't sure that this was a good age for us. She said that since we live in the city it would be a big change for a dog who isn't used to a small yard, getting most of it's exercise on a leash, or having lots of cars go by. She said that if we got a younger puppy it would likely grow up used to those things and would almost certainly be happy in our home, but an older puppy or dog might have trouble adjusting.

What do people think? Would a 10 week old puppy be a good fit for us? Does my logic on wanting an older dog make any sense?

[betsyj]

I think an older dog can be just fine. What sends up a red flag is mayeb this young dog hasn't been socialized very much if teh breeder is worried about traffic noises etc. I would want to know what socialization has been done with this dog.

Shelties can be nervous even when socialized properly so if I were in your shoes I would be asking detailed questions about the dog and what her life up to now has been. If I heard well she spends most of her time with the female breeder and doesn't get out much I would pass on her.

[Momily]

I did have those worries. The breeder told me she wasn't too concerned with this particular dog because she thought she was pretty outgoing, but that in general she thought that specifically looking for this age wasn't a good idea.

However, I also specifically asked how the dog was with kids and she said she didn't know -- the dog had never met any, but that she seemed to like the people she did meet.

I am finding this "dog finding" thing challenging. I wish I could find a consultant of some kind who could walk me through it.

[betsyj]

There are people who can help and who want to help. I know several people actively involved in rescue who WANT to meet people like you and help you and your family find a good dog. Good rescues and good breeders want to make as perfect a placement as possible. I applaud you for being cautious!!

If you share your general location I could maybe hook you up with some knowledgable people in rescue, or good breeders.

And I would probably pass on the dog as she hasn't met any children. Not saying she couldn't be great but again I see red flags.

[gingerstar]

I see red flags, too. I wouldn't want a dog that age which hadn't met children. And I wouldn't want any dog from a breeder who didn't introduce her puppies to children. Even if she doesn't have any, that should be part of socializing the puppies. That is part of being a responsible breeder, IMO.
Now, you never know, that pup could love children - but I wouldn't bring it into my house.

[nd_deadhead]

Originally Posted by gingerstar

I see red flags, too. I wouldn't want a dog that age which hadn't met children. And I wouldn't want any dog from a breeder who didn't introduce her puppies to children. Even if she doesn't have any, that should be part of socializing the puppies. That is part of being a responsible breeder, IMO.
Now, you never know, that pup could love children - but I wouldn't bring it into my house.

Absolutely!!! My breeder and her husband are retired, and they invite neighbor kids over all the time to play with puppies. They took my dog's litter to a dog show when they were 5 weeks old (with their Mommy, of course), so they got plenty of interaction/attention from people who know puppies. He was about 90% housetrained at 10 weeks, because he had always lived in the house.

A good breeder should have a solid feel for the personal;ities of her pups by the time they leave home (minimum 8 weeks); one should certainly have a very good idea of the personality of a 10-month-old dog, unless he has spent most of his life in a kennel.

I'd look for a different breeder. Lots of breeders have adult dogs available for adoption, for a variety of reasons.

You didn't say how old your kids are, so I con't comment on whether a puppy or older dog would be better. We had a dog when my twins were born, so he stayed; we didn't consider getting a puppy until the boys were 7 years old, and DH and I could be sure we had enough tme to devote to the puppy - on the puppy's schedule - without neglecting the children. The boys were also old enough to be part of the pup's training, which they thought was pretty cool - they finally had someone else to boss around!

[mom0810]

Shelties are pretty freaky with stuff that they aren't used to. A lot of herding dogs will be this way, and this breeder obviously knows her dogs and is just worrying about everything before it can happen. The dog may NOT have any trouble adjusting, but it's our job to warn you about every possible thing before you take a dog home.

ANY dog (mine included) would take some time getting used to the sounds of the city and being walked on a leash. My dogs won't even potty on a leash and when I place older puppies, they need to learn this. It just takes some time.

This would not be a red flag at all, and neither would the kids thing. Shelties are usually fine with kids and a 10 month old puppy is still a puppy and would probably adjust fine, given the time to do so.

A puppy would be a good option, too.

Oh, and exposing your dogs to kids is not part of being a responsible breeder. Geesh, like we don't have enough to do! My dogs see kids at dog shows, but before I had kids, they were not around kids at all. still, they never had any problems adjusting to homes with kids. But I did always WARN people that they had not been around kids, and have the people come and bring their kids to see how things went. None of the things this breeder told you would be "red flags" to me. Just sounds like she is really concerned about where her dogs go and she wants you to know every possible negative. Which IS a responsible breeder in action.

[Miasmamma]

My dogs were never around kids till I had my DD and they were 9, 7 and 1 at the time. Any exposure they may have had with their breeders was long forgotten, but I know they didn't have any there either. The only breeders I know who routinely introduce puppies to kids are those with their own children or grandchildren. It would raise no flags for me at all to buy from a breeder like that. I have and I will again. Socialization doesn't end with the breeder.

[betsyj]

Socialization does not end with the breeder but it must start with the breeder. I would not want a puppy who had never been out of a kennel evironment and had not been introduced to household happenings.

Maybe that is not the case with this sheltie but with this breed I would want to know what has been done and what she has been exposed to.

[SunShineSally]

I personally would only rescue an older dog. My aunt always has and only one time went through a breeder she loves the dog to peices but has said she will only do rescues now again not that she doesn't love the dog trust me that is her baby! She said rescues know that you did something special for them and normally she would find a dog that had a hard history and work with them I think that is the main reason why she will not do breeders again.

I believe it is all in what will work for you. I personally when I deside it is the right time for a dog I am going to go and adopt seeing eye dog that failed the test. There are lots of dogs out there who fail for maybe not being able to figure out if the light is green or red or something else that seems silly to us but not to someone who needs a seeing eye dog! You may want to look into that!

I would not expect a breeder to expose dogs to children that is not their "job" I think it is wonderful that she is cautious about where her pups are going that would make me more keen on adopting from her not raise a red flag.

Good luck on your seach for you next family member!!!:

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by betsyj

Socialization does not end with the breeder but it must start with the breeder.

I agree completely. The early socialization window is very important. You need to continue socializing for the dog's whole life but it is very difficult to undo lack of early socialization IMO.

There is a whole number of things that good breeders do: expose the puppy to people of different shapes/sizes, different walking surfaces, sounds, etc. A breeder I know has a little "exploration" course set up, so that the puppies can explore walking on wobbly boards, crinkly fabric, stepping under and over things. She also takes the pups on individual outings to explore the world without relying on the "safety" of it's siblings. It is a huge amount of work and that's why good breeders are so hard to find, and there are so many mediocre ones.

[mom0810]

We do all this, but kids are just never a factor. Or at least they weren't until we had ours.

Breeders live in the dog world, not the people world, and kids are not really part of that. Most of them don't really LIKE kids too much and even when they HAD little kids, they were way more interested in their dogs. ANd they don't really have grandchildren over too much because they prefer the company of DOGS. And they have breed club people over and puppy people over... not really kids.

So yes, good breeders do a lot of "stuff" with our puppies. But that doesn't just automatically include kids. It's not in the realm of our thinking... usually.... now that I have kids, I see things differently. Kids are very important to puppy socialization, I see now.

ALSO, OP... I was thinking about this, and Sheltie people are some of the um, more interesting dog people out there. This breeder could be overly worried. Shelties are REALLY hard to get and the breeders are kind of freaky about where they go sometimes. SO keep that in mind. This is the kindest way I could say this. But don't be taken aback if you are questioned beyond belief and made to feel bad. It's not you, it's them...

[Momily]

Thanks everyone, you've basically convinced me that I'm not crazy to be concentrating on older dogs, and that an older dog can adjust to our home, even if it's different from where they grew up. I think this dog is probably not the dog for me, although I might take the breeder up on her offer to visit and see what she's like.

As to the breeder, I keep hearing that if we do a breeder it's so important to find a "good" one. But I'm not sure I know the whole list. Here's what I looked for this time.

1) She was recommended by the AKC breed club's breeder referral.

2) She was clearly committed to this breed -- shows it, has several champions, is very knowledgeable about it.

3) She seems very picky about who she places the dogs with -- asked me lots of questions, seemed to be trying to talk me out of it at one point although by the end she said she was impressed that I was being so thorough and it would probably work out.

4) Only breeds a litter every year or two when she's ready to add a new dog to show.

5) Keeps the dogs in her home, where they are part of daily life and meet people on a regular basis.

6) Would take the dog back anytime, and actually said she wouldn't accept payment until after a 2 week trial to make sure the dog was adjusting.

7) Tested her dogs for all the things that breed is supposed to be tested for.

I asked about kids and she said she didn't know if the dog was scared of kids (it has met them, but not spent a lot of time with them) but that it isn't generally scared of people and has never had a bad experience. That was one reason she suggested a 2 week trial.

Anyway, are there other questions I should be asking -- does this sound like a "good breeder"?

[Momily]

Oh, and someone asked how old and how many kids. I have one sweet gentle 10 year old boy who is so excited to have a dog!

[Momily]

Oh, and one more thing -- do people think a Sheltie is a good fit for our situation? If not, is there a better suggestion. If I do decide I want a breeder dog, any breeds I should be looking for or avoiding? It needs to be small, good with kids, and I'd rather not have a dog that's either super tiny (e.g. no Yorkies, no chihuahuas) or super "fussy" in appearance (e.g. no Maltese or Lhasa Apso's) the latter isn't so much about care (I know shelties have lots of hair) as just personal preference.

[betsyj]

Hi Sent you a PM with a really good trainer who is waiting for your call. She can help you and your family with a good breeder or good rescue.

Edited to add this breeder sounds really good. Call Lisa too-there is nothing wrong with lots of options.

[mom0810]

The breeder sounds good and yes, she is just being really thorough. NO problems there.

A sheltie would be a great fit for you and your family. I've lived with them, as a young person about your son's age until college... and they are great. Really truly awesome family dogs.