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Another children and dogs thread

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I know there are lots of children and dogs threads. I have had bad experiences with children and dogs. Personally, I like dogs. I am a cat person, but I love all animals and dogs are almost up with the cats. We had this adorable little kitten and he had FIP and had to be, very suddenly, put to sleep. Our house, even with its two cats, felt so lonely and empty. I checked out our shelter and looking at the cats made me teary eyed. But we fell in love with this little chow/lab mix. She is a year and a half and was kept outside her first year of life. She let the kids hug her, she even flopped onto her back for a belly rub from my children. We visited her three times over the course of two days and then adopted her.

She is fine with my cats, ignores them. She isn't a resource guarder or food aggressive (reasons I returned my last puppy to the rescue we adopted him from). She has a lot of chowy personality, I feel. She definitely follows me around and is bonding to me. She likes the kids, but isn't a wiggly, waggy tailed, licker. This is fine by all of us. She is out of all that puppy craziness and is perfectly happy sleeping on the floor next to me when we're in the house. She LOVES belly rubs and makes these cute little grunts. She is very smart and learned sit the first day we had her. I mean, she has really been great so far. But we have only had her 3 days now.

BUT--- I read through these threads and read about kids being able to pull their dogs ears, or hang on them and the dogs tolerate it. She has made it clear to the kids she doesn't want attention by moving away from them. This seems ok to me and I am teaching the kids to listen to her and go hang out our cats (who don't mind it) when they want to lay around and just idly pet something. So it makes me wonder- what behaviour is OK from your children towards your dogs- you personally, not in general. My kids give her lots of treats (for sits, not for free) and she sits for them. I am showing them it's ok to give her a good belly rub, but not to lay around on or by her. She isn't allowed on the couch (our last puppy "took" the couch and the bed and would drive the kids off it when he was on it). Is this acceptable? I feel kind of guilty for not getting a dog they can hang all over- she def wouldn't tolerate that- but at the same time I really like Brownie and she seems to like us a lot- even the kids- in her own reserved way.

That's ok, right? Do any of you have dogs that are great but just wouldn't tolerate behaviour that some other dogs might? Sorry it's longwinded.
post #2 of 15
My rule is the kids can't do to the dog what I wouldn't let them to do each other or me. I am very paranoid and work very hard to ensure my dog and child are compatible and that there is mutual respect from both sides.

If Jack does get to grabby, Lily simply moves away. I think your dog is responding quite well-moving away is a good response.

She is allowed on the furniture only because she has NO issues with the furniture and will "off" in an instant. She is also on NILIF as well. Not allowing a dog on the furniture is just fine-not mean at all.

I am also careful in that my dog has terrible hip dysplasia so I do not accept kids laying on her, grabbing her etc. I know she couldn't tolerate that not because she is necessarily mean but because it would hurt her badly. While I have done tons of handling exercises with her, I respect the fact that her hips are very painful.

It sounds like your dog is doing great.

Edited to add-I wouldn't let a new dog on the couch anyways. She needs time to settle and relax in her new home and keeping her off the couch is just fine.
post #3 of 15
You sound like a wonderful, responsible owner. Your dog is a member of the family and should be treated like any other and respected. I can not stand people who let their kids treat their pets in the manner that you described. I think it is wrong and if they think it's okay, then they shouldn't have a pet. Although my kids could do all that to any of my dogs, they are taught not too and to only pet the dogs in a nice way. I have a Great Dane and you would be amazed at how many times we hear "I had one when I was kid, I use to ride him like a horse" or "do you have a saddle, that kid could ride that dog like a horse" :

Good job and keep up the good work. Your instincts are right on.
post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by betsyj View Post
My rule is the kids can't do to the dog what I wouldn't let them to do each other or me. I am very paranoid and work very hard to ensure my dog and child are compatible and that there is mutual respect from both sides.
This. Except that I don't feel that I'm paranoid, just... vigilant? Committed?

Anyway, I have a dog who would absolutely allow my 2.5 year old to hang all over him. I have no doubt that the baby could pull, prod, poke, jump on him and the dog would just allow it.

HOWEVER there is no way that my baby would ever be allowed to do any of these things. He wouldn't try, because he has always been taught to be gentle and respectful.

Your dog sounds great. Walking away is the appropriate response. Not every dog is totally bomb proof, my dog is the exception and I attribute it to his breed rather than to my training (even as a very baby puppy he exhibited patient tolerance and maternal overseeing toward the baby). A dog who walks away is a very bomb proof and trustworthy dog.
post #5 of 15
I think what you are teaching your kids will be invaluable for the rest of their lives. Even if a dog does allow all of the things you said, I agree that the kids shouldn't be allowed to do it.
Also if you see that your dog always chooses the same place to get away from your kids, tell your kids that the spot is the dog's quiet place and no one can bother him there. Then the dog will know that it can always go there to feel safe and get away.
I'm not sure how long you have had your dog, but they take a good 4-5 months to really come out of their shell in a new home. Especially in this case considering how crappy the dog's life was before you. There are so many new things in it's life now and you never know, she might become one of those dogs that lets your kids hang all over it one day.
Sounds like you are doing a great job and your dog is a lucky girl!
post #6 of 15
Sounds like you are doing great; only thing I could add is, if you haven't read it, Childproofing your Dog is a wonderful resource. It even has a chapter for children to read, if yours are old enough.
post #7 of 15
Thread Starter 
Thanks. : We have just had so much bad luck with dogs that I am just paranoid Brownie will end up not working out. So I guess I am being a little paranoid. Our last dog was just a puppy, I got him from a rescue and I thought he would be great. But he would steal the kids toys and growl when they tried to get them back, he would jump on the couch and then not let them up, he guarded his food bowl AND the food bag in the corner of the kitchen. He snapped at my son twice- once while he was walking by the puppy while the puppy was licking a spatula that I was about to take away from him and once more when my son was heading out the backdoor (right beside the corner where the food bag was) and the puppy was guarding that area and I guess it included the back door. That was the last straw and we took him back.

But Brownie is not like that at all. And she seems so super smart and so laid back. And I like that she is grown. She is our third try at a dog with my kids so I am so scared to be optimistic and get all attached to her! We have been doing NILIF, but aren't super hardcore. She has to sit before we feed her, and before the kids can pet her we have her sit for a treat. She's so humble that she can barely get the "sit" in before she flops onto her back. It's funny. I think the kids recognizing her behaviour is really important, too. They know when the cats are annoyed- but cats are so much easier than dogs and the error doesn't seem so large and my kids have been raised with cats so they are cat savvy.
post #8 of 15
I never let dd lay on, poke or pull at an animal. Even when someone tells me their dog tolerates it I don't allow her to do it.

I think you are doing the right things.
post #9 of 15
I have 2 German Shepherds, one that we got as a young pup (he's 5yo now,) another that we adopted last year when she was 3yo.

I don't let kids poke, prod, pull or explore disrespectfully. They aren't allowed to boss the dogs just to be bossy, but my two older girls do help with things that require commands (we are strict NILIF.)

I also don't let kids hug the dogs around the neck. The dog we raised from a pup would have no problem with it, but in general, hugging violates doggy ettiquite, so I don't want my kids to get into the habit.

I also don't let my recent rescue outside when the kids have friends over. She's protective of my kids to a fault & she hates it when they roughhouse--esp when it's with someone outside of the family. Not all dogs are like that, though.

It sounds like you're doing great with Brownie--and it sounds like she's a great dog.
post #10 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamallama View Post
I have 2 German Shepherds, one that we got as a young pup (he's 5yo now,) another that we adopted last year when she was 3yo.

I don't let kids poke, prod, pull or explore disrespectfully. They aren't allowed to boss the dogs just to be bossy, but my two older girls do help with things that require commands (we are strict NILIF.)

I also don't let kids hug the dogs around the neck. The dog we raised from a pup would have no problem with it, but in general, hugging violates doggy ettiquite, so I don't want my kids to get into the habit.

I also don't let my recent rescue outside when the kids have friends over. She's protective of my kids to a fault & she hates it when they roughhouse--esp when it's with someone outside of the family. Not all dogs are like that, though.

It sounds like you're doing great with Brownie--and it sounds like she's a great dog.
When you say you are strict NILIF, what does that entail? Esp for your kids? I have noticed that Brownie will sit for me just fine and do things for me just fine. She will sit for my kids, but only if I am RIGHT THERE. If I am sitting down pretending I am not paying attention, she will not sit for them and usually walks away from them. My kids are 4, 5 and 7. How do I get her to respect and listen to the kids even when I am not standing there backing up their commands (but in the same room)?

She just growled at my daughter who was petting her in a very respectful way (I don't let the kids hug her or put their faces in hers). Then she realized what she did was completely wrong and freaked out and ran out of the room even before I reacted. Now I'm all scared! We were doing treats for sits all the time with the kids, but we aren't doing it so much (she was eating SO many dog treats). We've only had her for four days and she has never lived with kids. I think she just sees the kids as lesser on the chain of command, it's not that she DOESN'T like them.

There is something I can do about this, right? I grew up with Scotties and I don't think my mom ever thought about how we interacted with the dog and NILIF and hierarchy, etc. She doesn't think about it with her dogs now. When I had my first dogs before my kids, I never thought about this stuff, either. But kids and dogs seem such a crazy combo now that I end up always second guessing myself.
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by meowmix View Post
When you say you are strict NILIF, what does that entail? Esp for your kids? I have noticed that Brownie will sit for me just fine and do things for me just fine. She will sit for my kids, but only if I am RIGHT THERE. If I am sitting down pretending I am not paying attention, she will not sit for them and usually walks away from them. My kids are 4, 5 and 7. How do I get her to respect and listen to the kids even when I am not standing there backing up their commands (but in the same room)?
I don't think it's reasonable or likely to get her to listen to the kids when you aren't right there--not right away, at least. Your kids are too young to have much authority--esp with an adult rescue who isn't familiar with children.

For us, NILIF is:

*sit for food, bossy dog in down stay for food
*sit and wait for verbal release before going out (after door is completely open)
*no dogs on furniture
*dogs on my bed only when invited, no dogs on kids' beds
*down-stay if they want to be in the kitchen while I cook
*down-stay while family eats
*sit for leashes
*sit for in/out of car
*for the bossy dog, I won't always pet her on command. She's the type to continually harass people for affection. I take note that she wants some love, tell her to knock it off, and lay on the love a few minutes later--when I initiate it.

there is probably more...I used to be more lenient with the pup we raised, but our rescue is quite the project & I have to be strict with her. I extend that to our other dog our of respect for their pack order.

As far as what the kids do--the feed the dogs, treat them, and let them in and out of the house. My 10yo can call them off the fence if they're barking at a low-level thing (mailman, neighbor's dog.) They wouldn't come if she tried to call them off a high-level thing (stranger on the porch.) Both of my girls can put the dogs through their "tricks," but only if the treats are visible (this has taken a lot of practice!)

As far as Brownie growling at your child--growling is a good thing, a warning signal. I would be careful to not correct her for growling. You don't want to train her out of giving warning.

It's hard for me to guess what was going on by the information you've given, so I don't really know what to say.

...if you feel like you are treating too often for good health, you could always hand out her ration of dog food a couple of pieces at a time....
post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
I don't know. She is being so different today than she was the first few days. She was really lovey in her own way the first few days and we are doing the things you describe- no pets before a sit or down, I visit with the kids/husband first THEN when she is calm, have her sit for a greeting, we all walk before her, I had the kids walk her on leash both around the house and outside. She doesn't beg for food, so that isn't an issue, she doesn't try to get on the beds/couches so that isn't an issue.

I don't know if it is the rain today- she has gotten out for two walks, but she has been really nervous in the house. To the point of leaving the room whenever the kids walk by her. She will not let them touch her unless I have called her to me and had her sit and THEN she will tolerate petting, but she clearly isn't enjoying it. She totally loves it from me. She is ok with it from my husband.

It's so different from yesterday! Or maybe it's something that is building up and I wasn't noticing it? She isn't the same dog we looked at in the shelter- or rather, she is the same dog with ME, but she is getting more and more reserved with the kids. My husband insists nothing is wrong, but I am nervous with how nervous she is becoming. I understand leaving the room to avoid the kids is good, and growling a warning is good, but they should be able to pet her sometimes, right? I thought the dog we saw at the shelter would be pretty much the temperament of the dog we adopted. But she is becoming sharper as she is here, not more used to the house noises, etc like I thought. How long should I give her to see if she is the fit we want for our family? She doesn't have to love our kids, but she needs to tolerate and hopefully LIKE them. Is that too much to expect from her? Can she be happy in a house where she is almost neurotically attached to me (follows me from room to room, whines and cries when I come in the door after being gone- even when everyone else is with her, will come to my husband if he calls but doesn't greet him).

Please don't flame me- we all got attached to our old dog and it was such a tough decision to return him. It was the right decision. I do NOT want to get super attached to her and then have to return her to the shelter because she would be happier in a family with no kids. OK, I AM super attached to her because she is so attached to me. But I need to be able to relax when the kids run around the kitchen table where she is lying. Are there signs I should look for in her as to whether or not she will ever like the kids? I gave her a week with us as a "trial period". Does she need longer? She was doing really well until today.
post #13 of 15
Well, I don't think a week out of the shelter is going to be enough time to see her true personality.

I would expect a stressed dog of unknown background to take at least a month to settle in & show her true colors. A dog person I respect says that the first 30 days are about what the dog brings with it & after that, the issues & bad behavior are on you.

I don't know that I necessarily agree with the time period (I'm more inclined to say 3-5mos,) but I do agree with the gist of it.

Are you using a crate? It sounds like Brownie would appreciate a place she could go to get away from the kids--esp if she's choosing under the table as a place to lay. A crate would also give you some peace of mind while you're making dinner, or anytime you can't be on top of the situation. Letting go of some of your anxiety will help Brownie relax....

It sounds like you want to keep her for yourself, even if she never warms up to the kids. I think that's A-ok. I'm on the 3rd dog that is *mine* (My first two were elderly when my kids were born.) She accepts the kids, she tolerates occasional bad behavior (I do have a two year old!) she guards the kids--ok, from their friends, but also she lays with my toddler when he naps...but she doesn't really *like* the kids. She never chooses to be with them. Her head is on my foot right now. In a minute when I get up to switch the laundry, she'll come with me.
post #14 of 15
I really think the are in a daze the first couple of day s and nothing really bothers or do they even notice it. A lot of dogs usually even take a couple of days before they will even eat. I understand that you don't want to get attached to her, but I feel she really does need more time. Her world has just been turned upside down. At least a month of two... at least. Also, make sure that you control your emotions and aren't emoting that you are worried when the kids come around. She will probably pick up on it and could even start to guard you. Just be cool... I know that sounds silly, but it is something I have had to learn to do myself. Kids are so jerky and loud that it might take her a little longer to warm up to them. Plus the kids are probably a little much right now cause they are so excited about her. The novelty will wear off for them some too and then she might look to them for attention.

Good luck with everything and I hope it works out.
and here is a little more info on NILIF.
post #15 of 15
Thread Starter 
Thank you so much for your wonderful advice. I will give her more time. My husband and I had a talk last night and he is fine with giving her more time UNLESS she snaps at him or the kids. Then he says she has to go back to the shelter. I think that is reasonable since she hasn't shown an inclination to snap- she just gets nervous. I don't know why she growled at Rachael, though.

What can I do to get her used to the kids? You're right- kids ARE jerky and loud. Even when they are ignoring her, she is on edge a little when they come barrelling into the room. It's tough- but should I have them completely ignore her unless they are helping walk her? Then she might see they mean no harm, they are just LOUD? Any advice for me there would be really appreciated.

Thanks for the NILIF link. I will check it out. She really is great with me, I don't know why she attached herself to me so much. Should I maybe not give her so much attention, even for commands? Then she'd start seeking it from other people?
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