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post #81 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
I just don't understand people not being affected by the element of the unknown here. I can't understand acknowledging that it's possible we are watching a participant's abuse and still finding it in the least bit appealing or to be a defensible matter of free consumer choice. Like I said, listening to the woman starring in arguably the most mainstream porn film of all time make the claim that it essentially documented her rape ...... I just can not understand processing that possibility and still advocating for the rightfulness of making consumer choices which follow the path of greater risk potential in that respect.
This is a very good point, and also what jlobe said about women in poorer countries being abducted for the sex trade. If there's no way of knowing if the participants are truly consenting, that makes me think it goes way beyond being a free speech issue. So maybe I need to re-think my views. It's hasn't been an issue as dh and I have no interest in it for ourselves, but maybe it should bug me that it's legal with absolutely no safeguards.

I recall hearing one woman's story of how her husband and his friends, as much younger people, thought it would be cool to videotape their sexual encounters. And one day when she was pregnant with their first child, his friends came over to show this old video they had saved, of her husband having sex with some girl in a hotel room. The girl never had any idea she was being filmed.

I don't know if these men made copies and sold them or anything -- but it's scary to think that they could have.
post #82 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegemamato View Post
Do you feel that your views reguarding women and sexuality have changed now that you've become a mother of a daughter (or son, for that matter)?
My feelings went from ambivalence to disgust. I would never seek to control another adult person's access to it (I am not for censorship) but I would truly be happy if pornography was gone from the face of the earth.
post #83 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post

It's just weird to me when the ethic that inspires advocacy of the "buy local, buy with awareness, handcraft what you can, tread as lightly as possible" etc, kind gets thrown entirely out the window where an otherwise sensitive issue is involved.

Do you think that buying tshirts or other items made in China should be banned though?

I know families that have had their living standards appreciably improved by having one of the family members work in an electronics plant or an art mill or a shoe factory, in working conditions that most of us would certainly agree are sweatshops. In fact, there's considerable competion to get those jobs and they are highly prized. So, I do have mixed feelings about buying imported goods from the developing world.

In terms of porn, I think it's the same thing. I'm not a consumer or a particular advocate for porn. But some women make a living from it voluntarily, and I think that's their right. Some, no doubt are not doing it voluntarily. I doubt making it illegal would change the situation.
post #84 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post
Do you think that buying tshirts or other items made in China should be banned though?
I don't recall saying porn should be banned. And I'll be the first to agree that pretty much all exploitive industries involve a nasty tangle of effects ... you close down the clear cutters and you put the logger out of business who needed that job to feed his kids, you know? What is nonsense to me, however, is suggesting that advocating boycotting this particular industry, advocating much more heavily regulating this particular industry, advocating for the rights of performers in this industry to control the rights of sale of their films and images, and being of the opinion that being a consumer of this industry as it now stands really is just as wrong for my neighbor as it is for me, is somehow just about censorship, about restricting sexual expression, about imposing a particular sexual morality upon the masses, etc, etc, etc.
post #85 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
I don't recall saying porn should be banned. And I'll be the first to agree that pretty much all exploitive industries involve a nasty tangle of effects ... you close down the clear cutters and you put the logger out of business who needed that job to feed his kids, you know? What is nonsense to me, however, is suggesting that advocating boycotting this particular industry, advocating much more heavily regulating this particular industry, advocating for the rights of performers in this industry to control the rights of sale of their films and images, and being of the opinion that being a consumer of this industry as it now stands really is just as wrong for my neighbor as it is for me, is somehow just about censorship, about restricting sexual expression, about imposing a particular sexual morality upon the masses, etc, etc, etc.

On some level I don't disagree with you. Boycotting I think is going to be easy and really a non-issue for people who aren't into porn. I doubt that boycotts from people who are worried about the ethical aspects of porn would begin to make a dent in the profits of the producers.

I'm not so sure that I think the industry should be regulated any differently than the film or photography industries though, other than what is currently done regarding child pornography. Certainly performers or models in this industry should have the right to control their work the same as models or performers in any other genre.

As for what your neighbor does, I guess I think it's up to your neighbor. There are lots of things that I'd prefer my neighbors didn't do (the Evil Chemlawn comes to mind), but it's not my call.
post #86 of 148
This is such a great thread!

Motherhood has really radicalized me as a feminist. Since becoming a mama, I've really come round to thinking that the main issue of the sexual exploitation of women, be it in pornography, prostitution, etc. is not whether or not it should be legal for consenting adults to do whatever they want together (which I wholeheartedly support!) but whether women, in our society, can truly "consent" to the selling of their bodies.

In a patriarchal society such as ours, a female growing up in a culture which apparently condones the buying of women and girls by men, and the "need" for outlets for male sexual "urges", IMHO cannot truly consent, even if she is not being coerced by poverty or addiction or abuse. Until society changes for the better for women and women's sexual expression, then pornography (and prostitution) cannot be considered harmless.

BTW, I think pornography does just as much damage to the men who view it. So it's not just because i have daughters that I feel so strongly about it!

--Andrea in eastern Canada, with DDS 3yrs. and 16 mos.
post #87 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceinwen View Post
My feelings went from ambivalence to disgust. I would never seek to control another adult person's access to it (I am not for censorship) but I would truly be happy if pornography was gone from the face of the earth.
Ditto the bold.
post #88 of 148
Quote:
This is such a great thread!

Motherhood has really radicalized me as a feminist. Since becoming a mama, I've really come round to thinking that the main issue of the sexual exploitation of women, be it in pornography, prostitution, etc. is not whether or not it should be legal for consenting adults to do whatever they want together (which I wholeheartedly support!) but whether women, in our society, can truly "consent" to the selling of their bodies.

In a patriarchal society such as ours, a female growing up in a culture which apparently condones the buying of women and girls by men, and the "need" for outlets for male sexual "urges", IMHO cannot truly consent, even if she is not being coerced by poverty or addiction or abuse. Until society changes for the better for women and women's sexual expression, then pornography (and prostitution) cannot be considered harmless.

BTW, I think pornography does just as much damage to the men who view it. So it's not just because i have daughters that I feel so strongly about it!
I am not quite understanding why it seems like the woman is portrayed as always being a victim in the sex industry. There are both men and women in porn and in other sex jobs as well, including prostitution. I am confused as to why it is just women who would not be able to consent? I don't think they are selling themselves, they are being paid to do a job. The job just happens to be to have sex. For some people, having sex without any type of relationship is enjoyable so, why not get paid for it? Society has placed a lot of constraints and ideology on sex but, in the end, it is a physical act between two people. And, for some people, that is all it is. I think it is the same for women as for men. Some attach the feelings to the act and some don't. While it does seem like more women than men attach those feelings, that does not mean that the women that don't, are damaged by a career in the sex industry. Even if they don't love it, and it is just a job to them - lots of people have jobs that are just jobs to them. I think that both men and women need to have outlets for sexual urges and pornography fills that need for some people.

Just to provide some background - I've always had a more typically "male" view of sex than "female" so I think that is why I come out on this side of the debate. I am a heterosexual female but have never gotten what all the feelings and such are about when it comes to sex. To me, it is something that feels good and is fun. I honestly do not understand where the emotional aspect comes from? Maybe I am missing that part of my brain or something? I don't know...

I just wanted to provide this background because I don't want to seem like I am arguing with the poster I quoted or saying that her point was not valid - just that I don't see that side of it and, from reading the other posts, don't think I am the only one... I hate confrontation so don't want to seem confrontational . Just wanted to participate in the discussion...
post #89 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberoxy View Post
I am not quite understanding why it seems like the woman is portrayed as always being a victim in the sex industry. There are both men and women in porn and in other sex jobs as well, including prostitution. I am confused as to why it is just women who would not be able to consent? I don't think they are selling themselves, they are being paid to do a job. The job just happens to be to have sex. For some people, having sex without any type of relationship is enjoyable so, why not get paid for it? Society has placed a lot of constraints and ideology on sex but, in the end, it is a physical act between two people. And, for some people, that is all it is. I think it is the same for women as for men. Some attach the feelings to the act and some don't. While it does seem like more women than men attach those feelings, that does not mean that the women that don't, are damaged by a career in the sex industry. Even if they don't love it, and it is just a job to them - lots of people have jobs that are just jobs to them. I think that both men and women need to have outlets for sexual urges and pornography fills that need for some people.

Just to provide some background - I've always had a more typically "male" view of sex than "female" so I think that is why I come out on this side of the debate. I am a heterosexual female but have never gotten what all the feelings and such are about when it comes to sex. To me, it is something that feels good and is fun. I honestly do not understand where the emotional aspect comes from? Maybe I am missing that part of my brain or something? I don't know...

I just wanted to provide this background because I don't want to seem like I am arguing with the poster I quoted or saying that her point was not valid - just that I don't see that side of it and, from reading the other posts, don't think I am the only one... I hate confrontation so don't want to seem confrontational . Just wanted to participate in the discussion...
Not trying to confront.. honestly

I just wanted to clarify something- to me, it seems that a lot of the MAP's on here (Mother's Against Porn ) are saying that since we don't know the circumstances involved, most porn is tainted.

We can't sit and watch/enjoy it because of the possibility (which I believe is quite high, especially those with foreign actresses) of the woman not conscenting- which can be because of past abuse leading to sexual issues, poverty, straight-up kidnapping/smuggling, a current abusive relationship, et cetera.

We simply don't want to risk it.

Also- as far as the male actors- I haven't read anything (I may have missed a couple ) that said men are not or can not be victims. There are, most likely, many males who have been victimized into making pornography- just not as many.

eta: there is also the issue of how sexual our society/world is- which screams that it's ok for women (and even teens/children) to be objectified and used in a demeaning and sexual manner.. Some women may be making porn as a result of being 'sexualized' at a young age and, thus, unable to *really* conscent.
post #90 of 148
Quote:
Not trying to confront.. honestly

I just wanted to clarify something- to me, it seems that a lot of the MAP's on here (Mother's Against Porn ) are saying that since we don't know the circumstances involved, most porn is tainted.

We can't sit and watch/enjoy it because of the possibility (which I believe is quite high, especially those with foreign actresses) of the woman not conscenting- which can be because of past abuse leading to sexual issues, poverty, straight-up kidnapping/smuggling, a current abusive relationship, et cetera.

We simply don't want to risk it.

Also- as far as the male actors- I haven't read anything (I may have missed a couple ) that said men are not or can not be victims. There are, most likely, many males who have been victimized into making pornography- just not as many.
The % of porn I have been exposed to probably wouldn't even qualify as a drop in the bucket. But, from what I have seen, the people generally seem happy and healthy and enjoying themselves. And, since they certainly don't seem like good actors, I'm inclined to believe that they are not being coerrsed against their will. I know that there is a lot of other types of porn out there but, I don't think watching one type necessarily supports the other types.

The post I had quoted seemed to just focus on women as victims so that is why I had mentioned that...
post #91 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberoxy View Post
The % of porn I have been exposed to probably wouldn't even qualify as a drop in the bucket. But, from what I have seen, the people generally seem happy and healthy and enjoying themselves. And, since they certainly don't seem like good actors, I'm inclined to believe that they are not being coerrsed against their will. I know that there is a lot of other types of porn out there but, I don't think watching one type necessarily supports the other types.

The post I had quoted seemed to just focus on women as victims so that is why I had mentioned that...
But you still don't know if they are victims and/or being coersed..

Also, the women (and men) need to act the part in order to get paid and/or avoid abuse. (unless they're stictly in it for the sex)
post #92 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberoxy View Post
But, from what I have seen, the people generally seem happy and healthy and enjoying themselves.
So do a lot of people in abusive relationships. How common is it for a person to reveal abuse to the complete shock of the people closest to him or her? And that's people with personal knowledge, not just strangers looking at a photograph. Have you ever watched any of the Dateline or whatever episodes on trafficking in women? Even knowing their stories those filmed still appear willing. That a person appears satisfied with what they are doing can be absolutely right, but it can also be an illusion. So it's just a question of whether the possibility is a risk worth partaking of only for personal pleasure.
post #93 of 148
I agree with Amberoxy here.

Yes, it may be that they are being exploited. As far as that goes, so may many child actors. I guess I just don't feel responsible for that judgment call. The porn that I have enjoyed is pretty straightforward, and there were clearly no abductees from Asian countries in them.

I also strongly disagree with the argument that it presents women simply as someone to have sex with, and not have a relationship with. Like the pp said, it's a fantasy! Who would want to watch someone else's relationship? Yuck! And the women don't look realistic, because the point is that the sexuality be exaggerated. The men aren't particularly realistic, either.

When you watch a romantic comedy, do you get offended because the houses are so cute, and the people have great haircuts, and they're always eating delicious food and never gaining any weight? I think it's a similar experience. It's an escape, and therefore the point is to be different than real life.
post #94 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuamami View Post
When you watch a romantic comedy, do you get offended because the houses are so cute, and the people have great haircuts, and they're always eating delicious food and never gaining any weight? I think it's a similar experience. It's an escape, and therefore the point is to be different than real life.
But in a romantic comedy I don't expect to see one sex or the other be repeatedly demeaned, at least not more so than the other. Sure, there are standard male/female jokes, but it cuts both ways.

I haven't seen any porn in years, but all that I ever saw had young, attractive women and older, less attractive men, and was always demeaning to the women with a lot of ugly talk.

Hardly my idea of fantasy or escape. To me it was catering to men who didn't like or respect women. Ugh.
post #95 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegemamato View Post
Do you feel that your views reguarding women and sexuality have changed now that you've become a mother of a daughter (or son, for that matter)?
this is such an interesting discussion!!! thanks for bringing this up.

personally, my views haven't changed much, it is a little harder for me since my huge realization that everyone is someone's daughter or son (but that has changed my views on a lot of things) it's just harder for me to watch it and not think about that person's parents. and honestly, thinking about someone's parents is not exactly a turn on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseDuperre View Post
hope to help her develop a healthy body image and view of sexuality - and to that end, I am MUCH more concerned about her exposure to Barbie, Bratz and Disney princesses, and what they say about standards of beauty and gender roles, than I am about porn.
this TOTALLY!!! my children aren't going to see any porn until they are much older, they will see little dolls with skimpy outfits much sooner, leasing to earlier sexualization and the accompanying issues in our society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
I don't think it exists in a vacuum and I think as it is, it has a whole lot to do with perpetuating sexism and objectification of women. And this has everything to how we raise our daughters and sons b/c they live in this society.
it's true that we all exist in this society but i really don't think that porn is the only thing influencing "societies" ideas about objectification and sexism.... i think that a LOT of it has to do with marketing and commercialization and profit and money to be made in "regular" ventures as opposed to porn. if di$ney sells 50 million princess outfits they're making quite a bit of money...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberoxy View Post
The % of porn I have been exposed to probably wouldn't even qualify as a drop in the bucket. But, from what I have seen, the people generally seem happy and healthy and enjoying themselves. And, since they certainly don't seem like good actors, I'm inclined to believe that they are not being coerrsed against their will.
TOTALLY!! horrible actors! i couldn't imagine that they could deliver their lines so obviously acting yet magically turn into tilda swinton (trying to think of a good actress) when doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
I haven't seen any porn in years, but all that I ever saw had young, attractive women and older, less attractive men, and was always demeaning to the women with a lot of ugly talk.
i haven't ever seen any with demeaning talk. dirty talk sure, but not demeaning... and it seems that the men's faces aren't exactly shown on camera a lot... maybe why man tend to think they're inadequate size-wise though i do think that the disparity in looks is kind of yucky. like, would it be that hard to find someone with both good looks and, uh, you know?

i'd also like to agree with the pp that said she often seems to be more typically male in her views on this stuff. same for me. sex doesn't slways have to be about emotions and feelings and relationships. sometimes it's just fun
post #96 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayaMama View Post
i haven't ever seen any with demeaning talk. dirty talk sure, but not demeaning... and it seems that the men's faces aren't exactly shown on camera a lot... maybe why man tend to think they're inadequate size-wise though i do think that the disparity in looks is kind of yucky. like, would it be that hard to find someone with both good looks and, uh, you know?
I just recall being profoundly grossed out by any porn I ever watched, or mildly amused, thinking she wouldn't give you the time of day, much less have sex with you.

The stuff I recall was a lot of ordering the women around, talking down to them, and...I'm trying sooo hard not to violate the UA here....WTF is up with the money shots in the face???

I've been pretty turned on in my time, but I don't recall ever thinking yeah, that would really get me off, why don't you pull out and get it all over my face instead?

Seriously?

I mean, I don't care for the pap they market to women, either, but geeze.

I'd rather watch a guy walk down the street in a well fitting pair of Levis, personally.
post #97 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuamami View Post
I agree with Amberoxy here.

Yes, it may be that they are being exploited. As far as that goes, so may many child actors. I guess I just don't feel responsible for that judgment call. The porn that I have enjoyed is pretty straightforward, and there were clearly no abductees from Asian countries in them.
I agree. To me the idea that women cannot do this kind of work voluntarily because of societal factors is extremely paternalistic.
post #98 of 148
Maybe a lot depends on what type you watch? I don't like the movies with money shots. Icky. I like less explicit stuff like what is on Showtime or HBO or Cinimax at night. Nothing demeaning that I have seen. Just happy couples having sex . The men usually act quite tender and nice to the women. And, they are usually all the same age and same level of attractiveness - nobody gorgeous but no old, pudgy hairy men either. And, I don't think the actors are really having sex, just pretending.

I've been in the adult stores and seen the stuff there and I did think most of it looked quite gross. Just not my taste - personally. I do think with that type of porn, there is a greater chance for exploitation. But, I also have trouble with the idea that just because a women participates, she is being exploited or coercised. She may just be into that type of thing or may just view it as a job she doens't mind doing. I think the majority of the time, when there is no actual human trafficking involved, she is the one making the choice to be there. There may be circumstances that make her choices difficult - but, I still think the choice is hers.

I've been kind of trying to avoid this aspect of the debate because I think it is much larger than porn as to what constitutes coercien in any situation ( I know that I keep misspelling that word - sorry) especially when abuse is involved. The discussion would be way more than what would be suitable for this particular thread. Does this make sense? I'm not sure I am wording this right.
post #99 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post
I agree. To me the idea that women cannot do this kind of work voluntarily because of societal factors is extremely paternalistic.
Yeah, the whole "women in our society cannot consent" thing is really bugging me here. There's a huge difference between men and women who are forced to have sex (be it on camera or off) and people who chose to have sex (even if they would chose something different if their circumstances were different). I think it's pretty insulting and dissmissive of people who have actually been raped to draw parallels between their experience and a woman who would prefer to make adult movies while she goes to college instead of working at McDonalds or Walmart for minimum wage. I think it's also insulting to those of us who have actually been raped and otherwise sexually assaulted to imply that we are so damaged that we're the only kind of woman who would choose the sex industry to work in - and that women who work in the sex industry must be so damaged that they have to have been abused.
post #100 of 148
:

That was very well said!
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