Playing Devil's Advocate for a minute...

[katiegrace]

ok...so I know that a lot of people say that Prevnar is useless because of serotype replacement...I get that there are a lot of strains becoming more common that aren't in the vaccine, but wouldn't it be worth it to vaccinate against at least SOME strains?? My 13 month old is vaccine-free and I've been debating on getting her 1 dose of Prevnar at 18 months because meningitis scares me horribly...I keep going back and forth on it, and I guess this is my one question...Isn't it better to have protection against 7 strains at least, instead of none?? Oh, and I guess I do have one other question...would getting the vaccine make you MORE likely to get a strain not covered in the vaccine, or would your chances getting something else be the same as if you didn't have the vaccine.

[majormajor]

IMO, it's worth it. like you said, just because you can't protect against ALL strains, it's no reason to not protect against some of them. the serotype replacement argument is philosophically interesting to me, but reminds me of antibiotics; the introduction of antibiotics has led to more deadly forms of bacteria, but in the meanwhile has saved millions upon millions of lives. in a sense we're gambling on our ability to fight the bacteria in the future, but i would never choose to stop using antibiotics altogether because of the future risk of drug-resistant bacteria.

i haven't seen anything that suggests you're more likely to get an uncovered strain if you're vaccinated or unvaccinated. everyone's chances of getting an uncovered strain have gone up equally. of course, if you're vaccinated then you have like a 95% chance of getting sick with the uncovered strain vs. a covered strain, but i know that's not what you're asking.

[Gitti]

If the strain that would be covered in the vaccine are only going to be replaced by others and we have no clue where they come from and how virulent they may be, then, NO.

Meningitis can be caused by any bacteria, any virus, any sickness. I think the key is prevention. When your child is sick, make sure he gets plenty of SA, TLC and rest.

Isn't it better to have protection against 7 strains at least, instead of none??

The 7 would be replaced and that leaves the child in the same place as without the vax.
The most important thing is balance. The bacteria must be balanced. By vaccinating against 7 we cause an imbalance and that makes other strains much more dangerous. Maybe more dangerous than the original 7.

would getting the vaccine make you MORE likely to get a strain not covered in the vaccine, or would your chances getting something else be the same as if you didn't have the vaccine.

No one knows the answer to this. Not even an immunologist. Only god or nature can tell you.

But, any messing with the immune system makes you more vulnerable imo. And injecting foreign protein which the child will have to get rid of or deal with it forever, weakens the immune system and makes a child LESS HEALTHY.

[kiara7]

Meningitis is a condition, not a disease. It can be caused by ANY virus, bacteria. I don't know too much about prevnar, but HIB comes to mind. HIB is pretty much non-existent nowadays. What is being reported - non-B serotypes and unknown serotypes. I would imagine the picture is very similar with prevnar.

[makuahine]

"But, any messing with the immune system makes you more vulnerable imo. And injecting foreign protein which the child will have to get rid of or deal with it forever, weakens the immune system and makes a child LESS HEALTHY.[/QUOTE]"
:

I worry not so much about serotype replacement (though it's pretty frightening) as I do about impairing my child's immune system, maybe permanently, and therefor making her more vulnerable to all sorts of other infections and diseases.

[xmasbaby7]

I understand where you are going, but here is why I would NEVER do the bacterial vaxes.

If you are familiar with abuses of antibiotics, then this is similar. These bacterial vaccines alter the bacterial balance of the body, probably much worse than a round of antibiotics would. Even if you are protected against seven strains, you have weakened your child's immune system against everything, VPDs, viruses and bacterial infections that have no vaccines.

Can I prove this? No? Has anyone disproved this? No. Studying the diversity of gut flora of unvaxed kids compared to the gut flora of vaxed kids isn't going to happen anytime soon, but I'll keep waiting.

This is why I still don't vaccinate after coming to the conclusion that a few vaccines would be very effective in protection against certain viruses. I care more about arming my DD with "armor" all over, not one body part.

[PaigeC]

Originally Posted by kiara7

Meningitis is a condition, not a disease. It can be caused by ANY virus, bacteria. I don't know too much about prevnar, but HIB comes to mind. HIB is pretty much non-existent nowadays. What is being reported - non-B serotypes and unknown serotypes. I would imagine the picture is very similar with prevnar.

:

Since meningitis is a condition I believe that prompt medical care is the best policy. I was originally afraid of meningitis also.

I would not give Prevnar because:

Since the vaccine was licensed in 2000, there have been 3,243 Prevnar-related adverse events reported to the federal government (VAERS), including 476 serious events and 79 deaths.

and;

According to the CDC there are 35 deaths in children under 5 in the US each year contributed to pneumococcal meningitis.
http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Dis...umococcal.aspx

So, in the past 8 years approximately 280 children have died of pneumococcal meningitis while VAERS (which is agreed to represent 10% of actual cases) has logged thousands of adverse reactions to the vaccine. For me the vaccine is scarier than meningitis.

http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Prevnar-Vaccination

[gr8blessings]

Could someone explain what is a condition and how it differs from disease? What makes meningitis a condition and not a disease?

Thanks,

gr8blessings

[xmasbaby7]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

Could someone explain what is a condition and how it differs from disease? What makes meningitis a condition and not a disease?

Thanks,

gr8blessings

Meningitis, the inflammation of the cerebral lining, can occur with a viral or bacterial infection, just as sinusitis could occur. It is not a measles virus or strep bacteria.

[KimberlyD0]

Any and all vaccines that prevent any type of menengitis we have given our children. I've had intamit knowlege of people dieing from menengitis and it is not a plesent thing.

If I can prevent even 1 strand then its worth it. No it wont stop all, but its better then non.

[infraread]

Any -itis simply means "inflammation of." Meningitis itself is not a disease at all, it is a popular symptom of a variety of viral diseases and bacterial infections. Within the last, 10? maybe? years or so, it's become the catch all phrase for any illness that contributes to this symptom.

When my oldest was a baby, before he had his reaction and we stopped vaxing, Prevnar was supposed to prevent ear infections. That's it. When they had a shortage, his doc decided it wasn't necessary for him to get his 2nd dose because he wasn't in daycare. That leads me to believe that Prevnar isn't necessary at all...

[katiegrace]

Thanks everyone! You've given me a lot of good info! I am still leaning towards not doing it, but then I end up second guessing myself because if she were to get meningitis against something I could have vaccinated for, I would never forgive myself...although I would never forgive myself if she had a reaction from the vax either...I wish this wasn't such a hard issue for me...I hate being worried all the time....

[Yulia_R]

I believe that it's MUCH more important to have a healthy immune system than a messed up by the vaccines one. Once it's messed up, it opens up a window for all sort of health conditions, including cancers, asthma, allergies and so on...

[Jugs]

[QUOTE=KimberlyD0;13697798]Any and all vaccines that prevent any type of menengitis we have given our children. [QUOTE]
Any infection can lead to meningitis.

[KimberlyD0]

[QUOTE=Jugs;13699909][QUOTE=KimberlyD0;13697798]Any and all vaccines that prevent any type of menengitis we have given our children.

Any infection can lead to meningitis.

And if I can reduce that number even a little I feel I should and I sleep better knowing I have done everything I can do.

Should my child get one of the vaccine preventable ones if I didn't vaccinate I would never forgive myself.

Its what I feel is best for MY kids.

[majormajor]

Originally Posted by PaigeC

:

Since meningitis is a condition I believe that prompt medical care is the best policy. I was originally afraid of meningitis also.

I would not give Prevnar because:



and;

According to the CDC there are 35 deaths in children under 5 in the US each year contributed to pneumococcal meningitis.
http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Dis...umococcal.aspx

So, in the past 8 years approximately 280 children have died of pneumococcal meningitis while VAERS (which is agreed to represent 10% of actual cases) has logged thousands of adverse reactions to the vaccine. For me the vaccine is scarier than meningitis.

http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Prevnar-Vaccination

it's important to remember that VAERS is a passive surveillance system. anyone can report anything to VAERS, and reported reactions do NOT need to be proved to relate to the vaccine.

for example, my first DD got a fever at 12 days old--10 days after she got the hep B vax. i reported it to VAERS. i don't think her fever was related to the hep B vax, but of course i don't know.

what the people who analyze VAERS reports will do with this kind of information is look at how many 12 day olds can be expected to spike a fever without getting a vaccine, vs. the number who spike it after the vaccine. even then, VAERS isn't going to answer any questions about fever and hep B--all it can do is suggest a link that researchers can then study with well-designed and rigorous studies. actually, i doubt anyone would use VAERS to look at something as common as a fever. what VAERS is really looking for are the one in a million side effects that can be missed by the clinical trials.

so, of this:
"Since the vaccine was licensed in 2000, there have been 3,243 Prevnar-related adverse events reported to the federal government (VAERS), including 476 serious events and 79 deaths."
we can't assume that because the 3.243 adverse events happened close in time to the prevnar vaccine that they were actually caused by the vaccine. nor can we assume that the 79 deaths were related to the vaccine.

[flower01]

[QUOTE=KimberlyD0;13700222][QUOTE=Jugs;13699909]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0

Any and all vaccines that prevent any type of menengitis we have given our children.

And if I can reduce that number even a little I feel I should and I sleep better knowing I have done everything I can do.

Should my child get one of the vaccine preventable ones if I didn't vaccinate I would never forgive myself.

Its what I feel is best for MY kids.

This kind of thinking kind of makes you sound Pro-vax in all circumstances. Cerainly, any parent would second guess themselves if their child got a vaccine preventable disease, but we choose to accept the slim chance of getting a serious illness with the much greater risk of destroying an otherwise healthy immune system and all of the problems that come with that. Of course, you should do what's best for your child, but i'm just thinking that you're comments don't help the OP with her specific question.

[Jugs]

[QUOTE=KimberlyD0;13700222][QUOTE=Jugs;13699909]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0

Any and all vaccines that prevent any type of menengitis we have given our children.

And if I can reduce that number even a little I feel I should and I sleep better knowing I have done everything I can do.

Should my child get one of the vaccine preventable ones if I didn't vaccinate I would never forgive myself.

Its what I feel is best for MY kids.

Not trying to pick at you (you have every right to make the choices you feel are best), I'm just confused; since any infection can lead to meningitis, then that means you do all available vaccines?

[Jugs]

Originally Posted by majormajor

it's important to remember that VAERS is a passive surveillance system. anyone can report anything to VAERS, and reported reactions do NOT need to be proved to relate to the vaccine.

for example, my first DD got a fever at 12 days old--10 days after she got the hep B vax. i reported it to VAERS. i don't think her fever was related to the hep B vax, but of course i don't know.

what the people who analyze VAERS reports will do with this kind of information is look at how many 12 day olds can be expected to spike a fever without getting a vaccine, vs. the number who spike it after the vaccine. even then, VAERS isn't going to answer any questions about fever and hep B--all it can do is suggest a link that researchers can then study with well-designed and rigorous studies. what VAERS is really looking for are the one in a million side effects that can be missed by the clinical trials.

so, of this:
"Since the vaccine was licensed in 2000, there have been 3,243 Prevnar-related adverse events reported to the federal government (VAERS), including 476 serious events and 79 deaths."
we can't assume that because the 3.243 adverse events happened close in time to the prevnar vaccine that they were actually caused by the vaccine. nor can we assume that the 79 deaths were related to the vaccine.

But we also have to take into account that because VAERS is a passive surveillance system, reporting reactions is not mandatory. Last I heard, it is estimated that only about 10% of reactions are ever reported.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by Jugs

Not trying to pick at you (you have every right to make the choices you feel are best), I'm just confused; since any infection can lead to meningitis, then that means you do all available vaccines?

Is there evidence of Hep A causing meningitis? or Hep B? I mean, theoretically one could say....but I don't think she was thinking like that. Seems to me she was talking more along the lines of hib, MMR, prevnar, maybe pox-- that kinda thing.