Debarking?

[Momily]

So, I asked a few more questions and most of the dogs we're looking at are debarked (bark softened?). Apparently this is really common in Shelties and most of the breeders do it to any dog they plan on keeping.

On one hand, I live in a rowhouse in the city so a barking dog could be really bad. Also, everything I read tells me that Shelties are a good candidate for this because they bark for fun -- so a nonstop barking sheltie isn't trying to communicate pain or basic needs, he's communicating things like "Look, there's dust motes in the air!".

But, it's still doing surgery to alter a dog's body for my convenience.

Then again, on the other hand I'm planning on getting my dog spayed or neutered for my convenience -- which is a much bigger alteration.

Talk me through this -- please.

[SevenVeils]

I feel fine about debarking. It is a very minimally-invasive procedure, as far as surgeries go.

I once had a dog debarked, and I would do it again in a minute if necessary. He didn't even spend the night at the vet's, and still enjoyed barking. It just wasn't deafening to the humans in the house anymore.

In his case, there was not even an incision, apart from the actual nicking of the vocal cords. The vet went in through the mouth.

[graceomalley]

I don't really have an opinion on debarking - I don't know enough about it to say whether it's good or bad. From my very minimal knowledge it's not like docking or cropping.

But I have to disagree that neutering or spaying is for your convenience. It's not. It's for the greater good.

[Momily]

See, since I know I'm not going to breed my dogs, and I'm never going to leave my dogs out unsupervised, I'm not spaying to prevent puppies. I'm spaying so I don't have to chase away male dogs, or clean up when they're in heat. And so I have more choices of daycares and boarding kennels, and I can invite my friends with male dogs over to play.

So, in my case, yes I'm spaying for my convenience. Doesn't mean that my dog won't enjoy being able to go out all the time (rather than staying home when she's in heat). Do I have any guilt about that whatsoever? No.

Is debarking the same thing? I don't know.

[graceomalley]

I was also thinking of the health benefits. If you're not intending to breed your dog it cuts down health risks associated with cancer if you have them spayed or neutered.

[Girl In The Fire]

I don't think there is anything wrong with debarking. It is certainly more humane and permanent than using a bark collar. I have a friend that has Collies, two of them were already debarked when she got them. You could still hear them when they barked but it was not as loud or obnoxious as a dog that had not been debarked.

[angie7]

I think it is ridiculious to debark a dog, it's like declawing a cat. It's only for your convenience and if you can't deal with a barking dog, then you shouldn't have a dog. Get a cat.

[slimkins]

I'm definitely not a fan of debarking. I think certain breeds carry certain traits, so I usually think about whether or not that dog fits my lifestyle. If you live in close quarters with other people have you maybe thought about a type of dog that is more on the quiet side and doesn't bark at everything? That just seems like a big problem waiting to happen.

I also don't think that there is any comparison between debarking and neutering/spaying. it's like apples and oranges to me. I agree that it is more comparable to declawing a cat which I would never do either.

[Momily]

Like I said I'm still on the fence as to the debarking, but I don't get the declawing comparison. My understanding is that if a declawed cat escapes it will die -- simple as that. So, by declawing your cat you're literally risking their life.

Debarking doesn't seem to carry that risk. Or am I missing something?

[Ola_]

I think if you have a dog and debarking really means the difference between keeping it and having to give it away, then it may be an option. I personally wouldn't do it, but I can imagine a few situations where the owner would be really stuck with no other options. But to get a dog with the intention to debark doesn't seem fair. If you can't have barking, get a breed/mix that barks less. Find a dog to suit your situation, not the other way around.

It's totally different than a spay/neuter, which is NOT for convenience reasons. Cancers of the reproductive system, mammary cancer, and pyometra (a nasty, nasty thing) are the main concerns in females. In males it reduces marking, dog-dog aggression, as well as some health issues.

[Momily]

Just to clarify,

I'm not asking if I should debark my dog. I would never do that without trying other things first.

But if I'm getting an adult dog from a breeder, it will likely have been debarked already. In fact every adult sheltie I've inquired about has been debarked. My question is, if a breeder routinely debarks the dogs they show, does that make them a bad breeder, and should I consider a dog that's been debarked or am I contributing to a "bad breeder"?

[slimkins]

Oh, I guess i made the comparison more along the line of it is something they obviously do (bark or claw your couch) but instead of training them not to do this you just take it away from them because it bothers you. I guess that is how I see it. My cats do not claw any of our furniture except for one piece and that is encouraged. Also our dog only barks when playing. She doesn't bark at the dogs on either sides of the fence, nor the postman or anything else. And this isn't because she never thought about it, it is because we trained her not to. If somebody is walking up to the house I do allow her to do her little growl and a couple of barks and then she stops. I do want her to feel she can alert me and warn the person, but I do not allow it to escalate into anything more.


Also, maybe you could contact your local sheltie club to find out if that is a common practice. I'm not sure. They would know if that is good practice or not. Usually good breeders appreciate all the traits that are common in the breed they are breeding, so that does strike me as odd, since barking seems to be so common in shelties.

[Momily]

It's clearly common practice in the breed. Every article I can find on the subject gives Shelties as the first example, usually if there's a second example it's collies. From what I hear most of the shelties in the show ring are debarked (they call it bark softened), and I've now been told by 5 or 6 otherwise reputable breeders that it's their standard practice.

My understanding is that if you have 1 even tempered sheltie you can train it not to bark in the circumstances you're talking about, but training it not to bark when you aren't home is really hard, and training them not to bark when they're in a group of shelties is pretty impossible. You can use a shock collar, but that seems worse in my opinion. Since I live in a rented rowhouse, and could conceivably get kicked out my home if we annoy the neighbors this is no small matter for me. I'm going to guess that if I decide that I can't live with debarking as an option (not something I'd try first, but something to keep on the table if other things failed) then I need to choose another breed, because even if I find a undebarked sheltie odds are good we'll have trouble.

[Girl In The Fire]

In certain breeds like Shelties and Collies it is very common to debark and does not mean the breeder is a bad breeder. The excessive barking is a breed trait and you cant train out of them, well you may be able to some degree, but they are still going to bark and bark and bark and bark and bark just to make sure they have barked enough..and then maybe bark some more just to be entirely sure they barked as much as was appropriate...

I have been around a TON of Shelties in training, they are fabulous little dogs but goodness do they bark. When I was doing Rally they would bark the entire way through the course, all of them, the entire way through the course. Then when they were done they would bark some more because apparently if they don't bark every second of everyday they can explode

I guess if it comes down to if you think debarking is morally OK or not. They are great dogs, you shouldn't let something like debarking get in your way if they are otherwise a good match for you. If I was into grooming they would be on my future dog short list

[beanma]

My sister has had several Shelties and not one has been debarked and frankly the dogs they've had haven't been huge barkers. They bought the dogs as puppies in Colorado and Virgina. They're very smart quirky dogs and do have a lot of that herding instinct. The Sheltie they have now loves to play "soccer" with the kids and also watches any ball game (football, basketball, etc) on TV and tries to get the ball. I think it can be a bit of a problem to watch sports with him.

My mutt is much more of a problem/annoyance as far as barking — "Alert, Alert! There's a leaf falling!" I'm not a fan of the procedure. I used to walk by a house with debarked Shelties and they would try to bark and it sounded so pitiful and sad. I'd much rather hear a real bark than that horrid raspy sound.

[Miasmamma]

I don't know that I've met a collie or a sheltie that hasn't been debarked, and they all still bark! All the ones that I know are from show lines so they are done to minimize the noise; I couldn't imagine how much louder an indoor show would be with all the added barking, or a breeder's house. I know that any dog that they may consider keeping is done as a puppy. The adult dog doesn't seem to know, or care!

[mom0810]

Originally Posted by Momily

Just to clarify,

I'm not asking if I should debark my dog. I would never do that without trying other things first.

But if I'm getting an adult dog from a breeder, it will likely have been debarked already. In fact every adult sheltie I've inquired about has been debarked. My question is, if a breeder routinely debarks the dogs they show, does that make them a bad breeder, and should I consider a dog that's been debarked or am I contributing to a "bad breeder"?

VERY common and not a red flag. Almost EVERY Collie and Sheltie breeder debarks. Every single one. It's actually a pretty good sign that they are debarked. It means the dog was good enough to keep and the breeder was serious about keeping it and showing it. It's not unethical at all.

[beanma]

Originally Posted by Miasmamma

I don't know that I've met a collie or a sheltie that hasn't been debarked, and they all still bark!

And I've never met one that has been debarked, just walked by the fence of those that were debarked and it was really sad sounding. The shelties and collies I personally have met are not big barkers, especially compared to my own dog. Btw, when y'all are talking "collie" are you talking Rough Collie, like Lassie or Border Collie or all of the above? Certainly the Rough Collies I've known have not been big barkers and they have a nice bark when they do bark.

I'm not a breeder or trainer, but I am a dog lover and have had dogs most of my life. The intact shelties I've known have not been worse barkers than the other dogs I've known. It may be the quality of the bark rather than the quantity of the bark that is worse. I have two mutts now and one could have some sheltie or border collie in him and the quality of his bark is rather ear-piercing. He's a much worse barker than my sister's full sheltie. We also have a lab-hound puppy and she bays like a hound, but it sounds funny and kinda cute (except late at night when it might bother the neighbors). Our border-sheltie-ish mutt doesn't bark more, necessarily, than our lab-hound does, but his has a more annoying quality.

You can teach a dog to be quiet, too. Some are more successful at learning it than others, but it can be done pretty easily with clicker training. Of course, some dogs are naturally more prone to bark and some more prone to be quiet.

If you have a real need for a quiet dog you might consider another breed or a cat. I could not do a debarked dog, personally.

[greenmagick]

My moms dog is debarked, but not on purpose. She had something wrong with her trachea and they had to fix it, and it debarked her at the same time. While I personally wouldnt do it, it really doesnt seem to affect her....and she is very squirrely to start.

Where I used to work, most of the shelties were not debarked....however, the one that came from good champion lines was.

Personally, I am against cropping dogs....that being said if a breeder had an older cropped dog, I wouldnt pass just because it was cropped. If its a very common practice among sheltie breeders, and you want a sheltie, well....either get a pup that hasnt been debarked yet, get an older on that has, or go through a rescue which is I am sure full of dogs not debarked, but from BYBs. I guess it comes down to how much the procedure bothers you versus how much you want the breed of dog

[mom0810]

The debarked sound is kind of like a whisper. It's a very weird sound if you are not used to it. But yes, most all reputable breeders will do it. Shelties are huge barkers, and so are Rough and Smooth (Lassie type--long and short coated) Collies.

Border Collies and Bearded Collies are not "Collies". Most of them will NOT be debarked. In their case, the name "Collie" comes from the sheep they were bred to herd, "Coalies," or the black faced sheep in Scotland. But they are not Collies, not in the proper sense.

Thank Goodness Collies and Shelties are all debarked at dog shows. I agree the Collie bark, when heard on its own, and by a SINGULAR dog, is beautiful. It has almost a bell-like quality. But when you get 50 or 100 of them going at a dog show, indoors... Oh, my goodness. Thank goodness for debarking.