U.S. founded on Judeo-Christian values?

[1hautemama]

I was reading my local paper today and found a link to a local mothers group. Interested in joining I clicked on the link and I was taken to a page to join a mom group that identifies itself conservative, espousing the Judeo-Christian values our country was founded on. I disagree that the US was founded on such principals, and always understood that in fact the framers of the constitution were inspired by secular ideals. We were one of the first countries to enact a freedom from religion by way of seperation of church and state.
What do you mommas think?

[smeisnotapirate]

First off (because I'm not sure merpk is around to say it ), I there is no such a thing as "Judeo-Christian" values. It's a Christian term meaning "Christian values," only it sounds better and more welcoming.

That being said, it's total bull-honkey. Though the forefathers were Christians, they had just come from a place where they were oppressed by religious majorities, and they made an effort to keep religion out of their new politics. Of course, they believed that all civilized people believed in G-d, but that wasn't really considered "religion," I don't think. There was a strict separation between the institution of the church and the institution of politics in the original constitution.

[holyhelianthus]

I pretty much agree. It's a Christian-American myth that has bled over into the general public, IMO. You know what they say about if you say something enough times...

You could always cite the 11th Article of the Treaty of Tripoli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_with_Tripoli_(1796)#Article_11

As for the Founding Fathers being Christian I highly doubt they were the type of Christians those who push their (the FFs) supposed Christianity are, if that makes sense. I'm thinking mainly of Jefferson and Franklin here.

[zinemama]

Yeah, the "founding fathers" were deists, if anything. Not Christians in the sense that the people today who claim they were Christians are.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Yeah, the "founding fathers" were deists, if anything. Not Christians in the sense that the people today who claim they were Christians are.

This is what brought Jefferson to mind- The Jefferson Bible

[Liquesce]

One has to remember what had been seen in then not-so-distant history in terms of governmental control and promotion of religion in Europe. Many of the founding fathers were deeply concerned for the sanctity of religion much more than the sanctity of secular government -- it's arguably more fair to say that they felt free expression of religion had been oppressed by political tyrants, and they made an effort to keep politics out of religion. Ambivalent about Christianity they largely were not ... diverse in their takes on Christianity, yes, but not ambivalent. Some or all may well have settled on the notion that religion doesn't really belong in politics either, but mostly they were terrified of creating a repeat of the Church of England.

There are pretty much two popular points of view on the subject: the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation, and the U.S. was founded specifically without regard to Christianity. Neither is really all that accurate; it's just more complex than that.

At any rate, thought any interested parties might like this book: Religion and the Founding of the American Republic.

(Did you know several of the more prominent founding fathers favored for the image on our national seal a depiction of the Israelites exiting Egypt with a motto reading something to the effect that rebellion against tyrants is adherence to god? The deist Jefferson included. Not necessarily all that relevant, but I do think it speaks volumes as to how those individuals perceived the venture they were embarking upon themselves. Then again, that the idea was in the end rejected may well speak volumes as well.)

[Bluegoat]

Well, I think we need to remember that secularism and humanism grow out of Christianity. So in that sense they are certainly Christian values.

Many of the people who emigrated to the US in that period were looking for freedom to follow religious values that were very strict, isolationist, and although they were separate from the Government, they were governed within themselves on a religious basis.

As far as the mother's group mentioned in the op, it's hard to say from the information given, but I usually find such groups have a rather simplistic view of what it means.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Yeah, the "founding fathers" were deists, if anything. Not Christians in the sense that the people today who claim they were Christians are.

My research into this topic proves this as well.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Well, I think we need to remember that secularism and humanism grow out of Christianity. So in that sense they are certainly Christian values.

They are not exclusive Christian values.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by magstphil

They are not exclusive Christian values.

:

[Thao]

Well, I think we need to remember that secularism and humanism grow out of Christianity. So in that sense they are certainly Christian values.

They developed in Christian countries but does that mean they grew out of Christianity? I think that a little simplistic. I'd say the proximate cause that gave rise to secularism and humanism was the industrial and scientific revolution. Did Christianity give rise to that? As for democracy, a cornerstone for both secularism and humanism, that goes back to pre-Christian Greece.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Well, I think we need to remember that secularism and humanism grow out of Christianity. So in that sense they are certainly Christian values.

Many of the people who emigrated to the US in that period were looking for freedom to follow religious values that were very strict, isolationist, and although they were separate from the Government, they were governed within themselves on a religious basis.

As far as the mother's group mentioned in the op, it's hard to say from the information given, but I usually find such groups have a rather simplistic view of what it means.

I'm confused by your first statement. In what ways have humanism and secularism grown out of Christianity? Grown in opposition to them perhaps.

I have to say that the idea that Christianity is the basis for our social code of conduct irks me. Every religion has elements which teach us how to live with one another and they are often virtually identical suggesting that they are human values, not religious ones.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4

I'm confused by your first statement. In what ways have humanism and secularism grown out of Christianity? Grown in opposition to them perhaps.

I have to say that the idea that Christianity is the basis for our social code of conduct irks me. Every religion has elements which teach us how to live with one another and they are often virtually identical suggesting that they are human values, not religious ones.

No, not in opposition at all. Humanism existed as a movement within Christianity before it existed as a secular philosophy. Actually I am quite surprised you don't know that, since Unitarianism which later became UU grew out of Christian humanism.

Secularism came from the separation of Church and State which began well before the industrial revolution. You can see it's beginnings, I would say, in the Medieval period, which really struggled with the problems of governance and religion, and it came to a head in the Reformation. It was a long a drawn out process that in many ways is still not complete.

Of course it has been adopted in many other worldviews. On the other hand, some worldviews are difficult to reconcile with secularism, and some nations resist it for those reasons. I don't think I can think of any other religions that have directly produced a secular state, though perhaps I am misremembering.

I would not have said democracy was a Christian invention, though in latter years it has had some influence in the form it has taken. It fits well with many Christian ideas, so it is popular in Christian places. But I think compared to secularism, it is much more easily adopted, in some form or other, by a variety of worldviews.

[1hautemama]

As I understand, and I may be wrong, secular humanism has its foundations in early Greek thought (I'm thinking the Stoics, Epicureans, Socrates) from the west and Confucianism from the East. During the Dark Ages humanism was suppressed by the Church...I do not see how Christianity gave rise to the philosophy of secular humanism.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

No, not in opposition at all. Humanism existed as a movement within Christianity before it existed as a secular philosophy. Actually I am quite surprised you don't know that, since Unitarianism which later became UU grew out of Christian humanism.

I'm well aware of the roots of the UU church but UUism isn't Humanism. Humanism can trace its roots back to the the philosophies of the Greeks, Hellenistic pagan religions and is threaded throughout history. There is an offshoot of Humanism - Christian Humanism in which it can be said that Christianity in some ways adopted the philosophies of Humanism - but Christianity certainly wasn't the genesis of Humanism.

We were just discussing this document at church not too long ago - you might be interested in reading it.

Here's an excerpt
Modern humanism did NOT evolve from Christianity, although this religion undoubtedly had some small influences (Erasmus, More, etc.). Modern humanism is an evolution primarily from ancient Hellenistic philosophies, Hellenistic pagan religions, the Enlightenment, and science. One motivation of humanism is certainly a reaction against the Judeo-Christian heritage, but from this one can't conclude that humanism grows out of that heritage. By such illogic, one might as well claim that everything in the modern world is an evolution from Christianity because Christianity preceded the modern world. To the contrary, humanism evolved out of ideas diametrically opposed to the beliefs and claims of Christianity--ideas that Christianity has tried to suppress for two millennia.

Humanism has ancient Hellenistic roots: the Greek philosophies of empiricism, rationalism, and skepticism, and the pagan religions of Epicureanism, Stoicism, and Peripateticism. The latter are the true religious roots of modern naturalistic humanism (and let me emphasize that I am discussing the roots of OUR type of "Modern Humanism": naturalistic humanism, the humanism of the CSH, AHA, and IHEU), not "Christian Humanism."

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Secularism came from the separation of Church and State which began well before the industrial revolution. You can see it's beginnings, I would say, in the Medieval period, which really struggled with the problems of governance and religion, and it came to a head in the Reformation. It was a long a drawn out process that in many ways is still not complete.

Not exactly true. The term and codification of "secular humanism" as a movement came to a head during the Reformation. True. Well before this time, in Eastern thought, secularism was prevalent - though not named, because there was a less strict heirarchy of a creator G-d and his creations in Eastern religion.

Bluegoat, you're describing well the rise of CHRISTIAN secularism, but it was never unique to Christianity.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

Not exactly true. The term and codification of "secular humanism" as a movement came to a head during the Reformation. True. Well before this time, in Eastern thought, secularism was prevalent - though not named, because there was a less strict heirarchy of a creator G-d and his creations in Eastern religion.

Bluegoat, you're describing well the rise of CHRISTIAN secularism, but it was never unique to Christianity.

I'm not sure are you speaking about secularism of humanism? I did say I wasn't sure if there were any other forms of secularism that developed, elsewhere. How far East are you thinking? Most of the governments I could think of, historical, were unified with religion?

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by 1hautemama

As I understand, and I may be wrong, secular humanism has its foundations in early Greek thought (I'm thinking the Stoics, Epicureans, Socrates) from the west and Confucianism from the East. During the Dark Ages humanism was suppressed by the Church...I do not see how Christianity gave rise to the philosophy of secular humanism.

Wow, there is a lot of of misunderstanding on this thread about how Greek thought was transmitted in the West. Primarily, for hundreds of years, it was through Christianity and by Christian thinkers.

From quite early in Christian philosophy, all of the philosophical movements of the Greeks and Romans were brought into Christianity. It was very heavily influences theologically by Neoplatonism in it's early period, enough so that occasionally people say Christianity is a type of neoplatonism. Stoicism and Epicureanism were practical philosophies that didn't deal with metaphysics in the same way, but stoicism did have a strong influence on practical Christianity. Socrates of course we only know through Plato, and is rather a mysterious figure. Later on, in the Medieval period, many "lost" writings of Aristotle were rediscovered by the West (the Muslims had them all along) and became the foundation of a whole new king of thinking. Thomas Aquinas was the main interpreter of Aristotle in that period, and was good enough that his work is still considered among the best on Aristotle.

So all of these texts and ideas remained available and used in the West because they were appreciated and important to the theologians and philosophers oh those times, and they were read and developed within their Christian philosophy. Even in the Dak Ages, the texts and language was preserved by monks, mostly in Ireland.

If you want to say the ancient Greeks were humanists, I would say it is in some ways true, though a bit of an anachronistic term to use about them. Rather, there were elements to their thinking that we recognize as being similar to humanism. They certainly were not secular or agnostic.

Now, in the Renaissance where humanism developed, there was a real revival of interest in the Greeks and the classical world in general. Many more people were educated and had the texts which had previously been available mostly in monasteries. And for the first time, a lot of philosophy and theology was going on that was outside of monasteries, and it's in that context that what we call humanism began to develop. But to imagine that is somehow sprung directly from long-dead Greeks and without reference to the culture it was in is a bizarre view of the history of thought.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4

I'm well aware of the roots of the UU church but UUism isn't Humanism. Humanism can trace its roots back to the the philosophies of the Greeks, Hellenistic pagan religions and is threaded throughout history. There is an offshoot of Humanism - Christian Humanism in which it can be said that Christianity in some ways adopted the philosophies of Humanism - but Christianity certainly wasn't the genesis of Humanism.

We were just discussing this document at church not too long ago - you might be interested in reading it.

Here's an excerpt
Modern humanism did NOT evolve from Christianity, although this religion undoubtedly had some small influences (Erasmus, More, etc.). Modern humanism is an evolution primarily from ancient Hellenistic philosophies, Hellenistic pagan religions, the Enlightenment, and science. One motivation of humanism is certainly a reaction against the Judeo-Christian heritage, but from this one can't conclude that humanism grows out of that heritage. By such illogic, one might as well claim that everything in the modern world is an evolution from Christianity because Christianity preceded the modern world. To the contrary, humanism evolved out of ideas diametrically opposed to the beliefs and claims of Christianity--ideas that Christianity has tried to suppress for two millennia.

Humanism has ancient Hellenistic roots: the Greek philosophies of empiricism, rationalism, and skepticism, and the pagan religions of Epicureanism, Stoicism, and Peripateticism. The latter are the true religious roots of modern naturalistic humanism (and let me emphasize that I am discussing the roots of OUR type of "Modern Humanism": naturalistic humanism, the humanism of the CSH, AHA, and IHEU), not "Christian Humanism."

Modern Humanism began in the Rennaisance, and has continued to develope and chane since then, but you can't separate the two as far as understanding their development and historical origines.

I have to say that as someone who spent my university career studying the way in which the philosophy of the ancients (the Greeks and Ramans et al) was transmitted and changed and shows up in the modern world, the document you quoted is a pretty simplistic and misleading view of how ancient Greek philosophy were transmitted and developed over the centuries.

As for the origins of Unitarianism and the anti-Trinitarian movement. Those people did, obviously grow up in a Christian culture, but more than that, there were certain elements of it they accepted (many accepted the gospels for example.) and others they rejected (obviously, the Trinity). They were very much influenced by their understanding of Greek thought in rejecting the Trinity, but it's important to remember that although they felt they were closer to the spirit of that thought than the early Christian interpreters of Hellenism, that is a difficult idea to defend. Certainly they tried, sometimes successfully, to look at it as a thing in itself rather than through Christian faith. On the other hand, unlike the people of the early church, they were not Hellenic, and were separated from those people by 1000 years, and sometimes got the wrong end of the stick, or took Greek thought in directions a Greek would never go. Which is not a bad thing, it's pretty much how philosophy has always developed.

Additionally, I am not sure if you are trying to say this or not, but the Renaissance humanists were most not generally atheists or agnostics, even those who weren't Christians, nor were the vast majority of philosophers of the ancient world.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I'm not sure are you speaking about secularism of humanism? I did say I wasn't sure if there were any other forms of secularism that developed, elsewhere. How far East are you thinking? Most of the governments I could think of, historical, were unified with religion?

In India, secularism has roots as far back as the 5th century BCE, when minority groups such as the Jains and Buddhists rebelled against the Hindu theocracy, claiming that their theocratic rule based on Vedantic philosophy and on the belief in a god, was not applicable to their groups. One can even argue that even the existence of the Carvakas means that Eastern secularisation was well-developed by the 5th century BCE, albeit not under the name "secularism."

That being said, it wasn't until the Brits in the 18th century that secularism as we know it was codified in the Indian legal code. And here's where we're arguing different things. I think you're arguing about the codification and naming of a certain type of government being "secular," and we're arguing that the roots and practice of secularism are not Christian or unique to Christianity, so it is NOT a Christian movement and to say that Christianity spawned it would be false.

The point I was making is that yes, secularism has been codified by the Christians and widely spread by their influence throughout the world, but to say that it's a Christian movement with its roots in Christianity is silly. Christians were the vehicle for its spread uniformly through the modern world - they didn't come up with the philosophy, and they certainly weren't the first to apply it.