U.S. founded on Judeo-Christian values? - Page 5

[TzippityDoulah]

I haven't been around much since my LO was born 11 days ago... but I've been reading this thread and it's great! I'm always NAKing so rarely do I write, but anyhow. just wanted to make my presence known I guess?

count me in one "this country WASN'T founded on christian principles" side. but add to that that I think many of the people who were founding father had christianity as a big part of their heritage and likely brought that with them to the table, even in a moral/ethical if not political way.

and the basic morals and ethics of Christianity have a lot on common with those of other thiestic religions... so that may not even have made much of a difference. I don't think they all came over here with some kinda word from God to butcher all the indian and steal their homes in Jesus' name *eyeroll*. I think it was just typical "let's find new land and overthrow their country b/c ours sucks" kinda mentality. wasn't the first country started that way and wont be the last.

From my personal Christian prospective, it always bugs me when people say "this country was founded on Christanity". as if this country is somehow "extra blessed" b/c we say things like "god bless America"? when did God ever put His personal stamp of approval on USA? and why do we think we have more right from God in America than other countries would?? I don't recall such a thing. Especially in light of the many deceptions of our government towards others and even ourselves. Like that is "Christ like?" (but don't get me started!) -- sorry the last part was slightly OT. but it irks me to no end!

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Tata

The U.S. of A. was founded as any nation state was and has been, as an exercise to control the populace so as to facilitate the ruling class with power and wealth.

The founding fathers may have been oppressed spiritually, but they also were oppressed financially and in the way of power. The King ruled England and controlled the taxation, hence also the wealth of the state. By taking that away from him, a new ruling class was created giving enormous power to a wealthy ruling class beholding to no one person. The resources and land that were available at the time were astounding for the day. The wealth to be made was enormous.

The values of land theft, destruction of indigenous populations, wealth accumulation, slavery, military intervention, and resource plunder are some of the values that this country was founded on.

DH is that you? Seriously this is almost word for word what my husband always says about the whole thing.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

I haven't been around much since my LO was born 11 days ago... but I've been reading this thread and it's great! I'm always NAKing so rarely do I write, but anyhow. just wanted to make my presence known I guess?

count me in one "this country WASN'T founded on christian principles" side. but add to that that I think many of the people who were founding father had christianity as a big part of their heritage and likely brought that with them to the table, even in a moral/ethical if not political way.

and the basic morals and ethics of Christianity have a lot on common with those of other thiestic religions... so that may not even have made much of a difference. I don't think they all came over here with some kinda word from God to butcher all the indian and steal their homes in Jesus' name *eyeroll*. I think it was just typical "let's find new land and overthrow their country b/c ours sucks" kinda mentality. wasn't the first country started that way and wont be the last.

From my personal Christian prospective, it always bugs me when people say "this country was founded on Christanity". as if this country is somehow "extra blessed" b/c we say things like "god bless America"? when did God ever put His personal stamp of approval on USA? and why do we think we have more right from God in America than other countries would?? I don't recall such a thing. Especially in light of the many deceptions of our government towards others and even ourselves. Like that is "Christ like?" (but don't get me started!) -- sorry the last part was slightly OT. but it irks me to no end!

WElcome back, I was just thinking yesterday that you must have a new baby by now, and be very busy!

[mammal_mama]

Yes, congratulations, HennyPenny!

Tata, it seems to me that our ancestors ("our" for those of us who are of Northern European descent, that is) were "babies" as far as understanding how to respect other religions and ways of life. I agree that it's horrendous what happened.

People came here to escape oppressive governments, and to be able to worship and live out their beliefs in their own ways. And here were these natives who'd been doing quite well in this land, but their ways and beliefs seemed too radical, and early settlers saw them as ignorant even though, had they but listened, the first Americans could have shown the way to avoid sooooo many of the ills we've brought upon ourselves ... overcrowding, pollution ...

If only our founding fathers had had the sense to adopt the first American's way of life (which I've heard many of the French trappers did) -- I'm not sure what was so different about those of Anglo descent, that they chose to keep apart from the first Americans and subdue them rather than learn from them -- but if only there'd been those seeds of good sense, we might now all be living sustainably.

I recall how in Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little House" series the Indians were criticized because they'd been here so long, but you couldn't see any sign of their having lived here at all. They had instinctual knowledge of how to live without leaving a "carbon footprint." But the early setllers idea was "surely the land belongs to those who want to 'make something' of it."

[talk de jour]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

I haven't been around much since my LO was born 11 days ago... but I've been reading this thread and it's great! I'm always NAKing so rarely do I write, but anyhow. just wanted to make my presence known I guess?

count me in one "this country WASN'T founded on christian principles" side. but add to that that I think many of the people who were founding father had christianity as a big part of their heritage and likely brought that with them to the table, even in a moral/ethical if not political way.

and the basic morals and ethics of Christianity have a lot on common with those of other thiestic religions... so that may not even have made much of a difference. I don't think they all came over here with some kinda word from God to butcher all the indian and steal their homes in Jesus' name *eyeroll*. I think it was just typical "let's find new land and overthrow their country b/c ours sucks" kinda mentality. wasn't the first country started that way and wont be the last.

From my personal Christian prospective, it always bugs me when people say "this country was founded on Christanity". as if this country is somehow "extra blessed" b/c we say things like "god bless America"? when did God ever put His personal stamp of approval on USA? and why do we think we have more right from God in America than other countries would?? I don't recall such a thing. Especially in light of the many deceptions of our government towards others and even ourselves. Like that is "Christ like?" (but don't get me started!) -- sorry the last part was slightly OT. but it irks me to no end!

:

[Tata]

Originally Posted by magstphil

DH is that you? Seriously this is almost word for word what my husband always says about the whole thing.

Muah-ha-ha-ha!







No.
But I am someone's husband and I do talk that way.
Especially when annoyed.

[Tata]

I just can't seem to get over the horror of what the reality was during the founding of this "Nation". It has no "values" in it except greed and power and control. I don't see religion or spirituality in any of it. So, I'm not sure that this discussion is even discussing the right things. I really don't see Christian or any religious values for that matter, saying it was OK to genocide the indigenous population, take slaves from Africa, destroy the natural resources and land, all for the sake of a dollar? In simplistic terms, this is just not OK. I don't think God approved.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

And I really believe (as I think some others here are saying) that the U.S. was founded on the secular values of the Enlightenment or Age of Reason -- and of course "secular" does not mean "Atheist" -- secular just means separate from religion, and not promoting any one religion over another (IMO).

LOL, when I said the U.S. was founded on the secular values of The Enlightenment, I kinda forgot The Enlightenment occurred some 100 years later. These still seem to be the values our country was founded upon -- so I'm guessing the seeds of sweet Reason were already alive and growing in the minds and hearts of the Founding Fathers -- as they have been in scattered places throughout history.

[chipper26]

Some of our founding fathers and the influential minds of the time, like Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine, were deists. Thomas Jefferson was a cut and paste Christian who believed in his own version of the bible. They emphasized freedom of religion (which could also be no religion) and secular government.