Assessing dogs/how shy is too shy?

[Momily]

I posted a couple of days ago that I had found a sheltie in another state that seemed like she would be a good match and wanted to know how to check out the breeder and someone suggested I contact the breed club for that state (duh! why didn't I think of that -- I'd already contacted the local one), so she replied that she'd never heard of that particular breeder but gave me a list of other breeders with dogs available.

So, I emailed all of them, and now I have a list. I think I've gotten better at "selling myself" because where as the first 3 breeders I talked to were all very hesitant about me -- this list all seems to think I sound fine. I should note that some of those breeders who didn't have the right dog for me told me to inquire about the first dog, so I do feel like that breeder is connected/reccommended.

Anyway, the first breeder tells me that Shelties are "shy" and warned me several times that she'll likely stay away from me at first and that she'll take a while to warm up, but that once she knows you she's a wonderful family dog. I thought -- he sounds like me and my son! What a great fit!

But now, every other breeder has either told me -- I don't think that dog's a good fit for you, she's too shy, or he's quite shy but I've got this other dog that's very outgoing -- he'd be a better match. Or, my dog sounds perfect because he's so outgoing.

So, now I wonder -- is shy bad? How shy is too shy? Is there such a thing as too outgoing? How do I test these things in a short visit with a puppy or young dog?

I guess I don't want a really shy dog, because we live in the city so the dog will be meeting lots of people on walks and having a dog walker come in every day who might sometimes be a stranger (they try really hard to give you the same person every day), and we have kids over here all the time -- but the first owner thought all that would be fine for her "shy" dog.

I've now got 5 dogs I want to meet. All are from reputable breeders 3 are younger than I thought I wanted (a 6 month old, a 9 month old, and a 13 month old), but each breeder assures me they have the perfect temperament for a kid's dog (and a mom's dog, but I haven't found any breeders that tell me their dogs are bad with middle aged women). The other are both 2 -- one's the shy female, and one's a more outgoing male. We have appointments to meet a few and will set up more. So, as I meet these dogs what do I look for, what do I ask. Is there a test I should do?

[Miasmamma]

Shy and scared are two very different things. I wouldn't be worried about a dog that won't approach you right away, but it should warm up quickly. Take a pocketful of treats and when you first approach, toss some in the dog's direction, but don't make eye contact yet. Unless of course when you get there, the dog bounces around like a nut and really wants to meet you! I've met shelties that are both ways. Good luck with the meets and I hope you find a dog that suits your family!

[Momily]

The owner said that we'd probably need to meet in the bedroom, because in her big yard she'd likely just run to the other side and we wouldn't be able to form a relationship.

Does that sound shy or scared?

[DogMomforNow]

Yay! I'm very excited for you Great job with all of your research too

I would pay attention to how the dog first greets you. Is that how you would be comfortable with the dog greeting people in your home or on the street? Just like with shy people (you can sort of learn to "fake it" when you meet new people, kwim?) you can certainly work to condition a shy dog to associate new people and places with good things. Is that something you would be interested in doing? It also depends on how shy the dog is - does she hide under the table and freeze when you go near her, or is she just aloof and not slobbering you all over with kisses? Is she the fearful type who rolls over and urinates if you push it beyond her comfort level, or does she freeze with her hackles up? Big difference!

However, if you have the option to get an outgoing dog I would definitely go with that over a shy dog for the situation you've described. I have always had outgoing dogs, and it's so nice to know they're going to love everyone who comes in the door, anyone they meet on the street (and in the city I'm amazed at the number of kids that sneek up on us at red lights!). Especially with kids coming and going, since you have the option to find an outgoing dog I would try to go with one of them.

Just my opinion - good luck to you - I can't wait to see pictures of you new addition!

[betsyj]

I own a very shy dog. And it is not what I would recommend for you. Because even if she warms up to you and your son, unless you live in the middle of nowhere, she is going to have to be around other people. And training a shy dog to learn to be outgoing (and you are never going to change her basic personality, training will only give you tools and techniques to help her) is very time consuming.

I would go for the outgoing male if you like him.

[I~love~pie]

One of my dogs is shy, and a loner. Sometimes I think she is cat in a dogs body. She likes people, takes her a minute to asses them, then she likes them to play, and pat her. she does not like other animals, so when we are out on walks I try to avoid other dogs. she was not always this way she had some bad experiences with other dogs.

my other dog is the total opposite, shes a in your face dog, which drives me bonkers.
I keep trying to figure out how I ended up with these 2 personalites LOL

[gini1313]

We had a sheltie when I was growing up. She was what I think the breeder we got her from called shy, I think. I would call her scared. She was obviously mistreated at some point in her life, and I believe the breeder kept her kenneled her whole life (she was 2 and not housebroken when we got her, just paper trained). All that to say I don't know if she is a typical "shy" sheltie.

We got her for all the wrong reasons (basically because they told us that if we didn't take her, she would be killed), but she turned out to be a wonderful dog for us (after my dad moved out... she hated him). She didn't like men, when people came over she would bark (she was debarked) but just stay away from them after they were there, but she was very loyal to us, and got better about other people as she was around them more (although, she never liked men, she would tolerate them).

I don't remember how old your kids are, but I think I (the youngest in our family) was 12 or 13 when we got her. I don't think that I would get a dog like ours with small children. My mom and I spent hours sitting with her and feeding her cheese and french toast (her favorite foods, lol), walking her, doing obedience training, etc. She wound up living just with my mom after us kids moved out and they were very close. But, she was ALOT of work for probably the first 2 or 3 years we had her. Looking back at the whole situation, we were very lucky it worked out the way it did.

As for debarking, I think the sound she made when she barked was more annoying than a real bark. She always seemed like she was working harder to bark (like we do when we have laryngitis and are trying hard to be heard). And, she still barked alot.

I don't know if any of this helps... I am not a dog expert, but that is my experiences... I do think Shelties are good dogs, and if I were going to get another dog, I would consider them. I don't know about shy, though... I would consider all the dogs personalitites and lean toward a more outgoing dog if everything else was equal...

[mom0810]

This is a BREED trait in Shelties and is not something to worry about. Almost every Sheltie you meet will be shy and seem to not want anything to do with you. It's not a fault. It's very normal. They are not ever going to be the run-up-to-you, licking your face kind of dog. Not when you first meet them. Once you know them, they will do that kind of things. Sometimes they will remain aloof. Some breeds just won't fall all over themselves when you meet them, no matter what.

I have a friend in the breed who works at a vet clinic. She brings her dogs to work regularly to just have them get used to meeting strangers. It's just never something they enjoy as a breed. It's not a red flag and it's totally normal.

[Ola_]

Personally, I would not want a shy dog. It's too high maintenance for me and I would worry about the potential for fear aggression issues. I also wouldn't want to see my dog stressed in situations that will be part of their everyday life.

I see from your threads that you seem to be set on a sheltie recently, but if you can't handle barking, herding, and don't want a shy dog, perhaps it is not the best breed for you? I think meeting them in person will help you figure that out though, as it can be hard to really get a good impression with just words.

[Girl In The Fire]

I may have a skewed view of Shelties, all the ones I have been around were either at the therapy dog group I used to be a member of or at a training club where everyone seemed to have Shelties. Not all of them were super outgoing but I would not call them shy in the slightest.

There is a big difference between shy, aloof, and scared. Personally I would not recommend a shy dog for a novice owner with children. If the person is telling you you need to meet the dog in the bedroom because it will run away from you I personally would not even bother to go see it *JMO*.

If you really have your heart set on the dog go see it at the breeders but also take it somewhere that is similar to where you live so you can get a good idea of how much of a project the dog will be. Some dogs can act just fine in a "safe area" but outside of that they can be a total mess. Make sure you go into it with a realistic mind set not an emotional one.

[beanma]

Originally Posted by mom0810

This is a BREED trait in Shelties...

I agree that this is a breed trait. That said, I think you should meet them all and go for the one that matches your situation best (probably not the "shy" one).

My sister had a sheltie, Cody, who never ever warmed up to my brother. Cody lived to be 16, I think, and often saw my brother through the years, but my brother tried a little too hard to make friends and Cody wrote him off as "that scary guy". I did get to be friends with Cody although it was clear that my sister was his person and her family his pack. They are pretty quirky dogs and not the kind to make friends with just anyone. All of hers have been nice dogs, though, and not the least bit aggressive, just not overly enthusiastic like my lab-hound pup who wants to slobber all over you.

Her other shelties have also been shy, but do tolerate large family gatherings and haven't singled any of us out as scary. She had a pair of two shelties and then had two kids and they all got along fine. When that pair of shelties passed on she got another single one, but her kids were bigger then (maybe 8 and 12?). Not sure about introducing a "shy" sheltie to a young kid, but it might be okay. I'd check out the others first, though.

[slimkins]

Since all of your posts I have looked at some sheltie websites and I have also read that they are considered "velcro" dogs. I have only heard that term with vizslas before. I know with one of the local vizsla rescues they will not adopt out any of their dogs unless you do not work or work from the home. Velcro dogs are much more prone to separation anxiety. Not sure if you are a stay at home person, but I would keep this in mind too. With the all the work you are doing into researching your new dog, I can't imagine that you wouldn't find the best fit ever. You sound like you are going to be a great dog owner, but I am never one that tells people all dogs are easy... because frankly, some breeds are better matches that others. Like I love boxers but I would not recommend them to just anyone.
The shyness is listed as a breed trait so, it shouldn't be a problem if the puppy is socialized properly. If this seems any concern for you, I would maybe step back and see if that is what you want to deal with.

[DogMomforNow]

Just thought of this during class, this snippet from the breed standard might help you get a better idea about what degree of "shyness" is acceptable in the breed:

Temperament
The Shetland Sheepdog is intensely loyal, affectionate, and responsive to his owner. However, he may be reserved toward strangers but not to the point of showing fear or cringing in the ring. Faults-- Shyness, timidity, or nervousness. Stubbornness, snappiness, or ill temper.

I may have a skewed view of Shelties because I've been exposed to most in agility - and they were all friendly and reasonably outgoing (like a PP said, they're not labs). To me, an acceptable degree of shyness would be a dog who didn't necessarily run over to jump on me - but who also didn't run away and hide. I'm totally fine with a dog who isn't super friendly, but I would not want a very scared/timid dog - I think that is especially important with having kids in the home

[mom0810]

To a person who is used to Labs or another outgoing breed, Shelties would seem shy.

That excerpt from the breed standard is good to go by, but again, shyness is subjective. The breeder knows her own dogs. Socialization was brought up in another thread, and I have to tell you that a lot of breeders pretty much do dog shows and class and that is the only socialization the PEOPLE get, so of course the dogs only get that, too. So you have to understand where the breeder is coming from.

Sheltie "culture" is a tight knit group and they are wary of outsiders... just like the breed. So you might have some trouble breaking through. But once you do, you will be so happy. I do think it's the right breed for you... I think you are overthinking the whole thing just a bit. I think you should go out and meet the breeders' dogs and one will become obviously your dog.

[SevenVeils]

Yes, "shyness" is subjective. It is precisely because of this, that I would be very cautious about a dog that a Sheltie person is describing as "shy". A "shy" Golden Retriever or Lab would be about the same as a normal or even an "outgoing" Sheltie.

Taking that into consideration, plus the bit about having to meet the dog in a small enclosed room (or she will run to the other side of the yard and can't be approached) sounds like a fearful dog.

Just from your description here, I would say that this dog is not a match for you.

[DogMomforNow]

Originally Posted by SevenVeils

Yes, "shyness" is subjective. It is precisely because of this, that I would be very cautious about a dog that a Sheltie person is describing as "shy". A "shy" Golden Retriever or Lab would be about the same as a normal or even an "outgoing" Sheltie.

Taking that into consideration, plus the bit about having to meet the dog in a small enclosed room (or she will run to the other side of the yard and can't be approached) sounds like a fearful dog.
you.

: I totally missed the bit about having to meet in an enclosed room - yikes! Steer clear of that one, especially since it sounds like you have a few other more gregarious Shelties lined up as possibilities as well Excited to hear how your meetings with the dogs go! When is your first one?

[Momily]

Thanks for that opinion, would you guys give me opinions on the other dogs, let me know what else might be red flags? It happens that I'm looking at 5 dogs each of whom is in the 5 allowed colors for shelties. I could care less about color, but it's kind of cool to have a rainbow to look at, so I'll refer to them that way. All 5 dogs are tested for everything they can be tested for at their age (so the 2 year olds are tested for hips, the others aren't) parents are tested for everything. All 5 dogs were being grown out for show and something happened that made that not an option (too big, too small, crooked teeth etc . . . ) Any dog that isn't spayed/neutered will be ASAP.

Blue Merle: The shy one -- 2 year old spayed female, has lived in a home situation, house broken, crate trained, leash trained, has been shown a little. Has little experience with kids.

Sable and White: 2 year old non-neutered male. Described as "more settled, but loves to play . . . sweet, loving, smart". Has won several show ribbons. Crate and Leash trained, but not housebroken. The only dog (I think) not raised in a house -- lives in a "room connected to a house -- not exactly a kennel" with a doggie door and a yard. Owner says she spends lots of time with them. Only dog raised with kids -- they have a boy a couple of years younger than mine.

Tri: 14 months non-spayed female. Described as "outgoing, smart, sweet, loving, playful". The biggest breeder -- at least 12 dogs plus a litter of puppies. They're raising them all in the house -- no kennels, but are crated while breeder is at work. No kid experience, has had male experience.

Bi-black: 9 months non-neutered male. "Doesn't have a shy bone in his body . . . just the personality you're looking for (based on my description of our family and lifestyle)", housebroken, raised in a house with kids until 12 weeks, then sold to another breeder who doesn't have kids but has grandkids visiting regularly -- apparently does well with that. Housebroken and crate trained.

Bi-blue: 6 month old non-neutered male. We talked on the phone so I don't remember the exact description, but I actually called about another dog, and she said "oh, you don't want that one, with the lifestyle you describe, you want a more outgoing dog, but one that's easy going. I have the perfect puppy for you" and described him. I thought that was really promising since the dog I was calling on (3 year old female) was probably harder to place. Has met kids but not lived with them. I'm pretty sure he's being raised in a home. I think not housebroken (since we talked on the phone I can't go back and check the emails).

We're supposed to meet the Blue Merle, Bi Black and Bi Blue this weekend. I'm kind of hoping to meet the Sable because I think he sounds awesome.

Any thoughts?

[oneKnight]

Originally Posted by SevenVeils

Yes, "shyness" is subjective. It is precisely because of this, that I would be very cautious about a dog that a Sheltie person is describing as "shy". A "shy" Golden Retriever or Lab would be about the same as a normal or even an "outgoing" Sheltie.

Taking that into consideration, plus the bit about having to meet the dog in a small enclosed room (or she will run to the other side of the yard and can't be approached) sounds like a fearful dog.

Just from your description here, I would say that this dog is not a match for you.

I agree, although I'm not a Sheltie expert.

I would describe my dog as "shy" especially as a puppy, but really she's better described as "cautious"

She would definitely NOT run to the other side of the yard unless you made an aggressive gesture. She would be shy as in she would hang close to me instead of running up to greet you, until she got used to you then she's all good.

[SevenVeils]

Originally Posted by Momily

Tri: 14 months non-spayed female. Described as "outgoing, smart, sweet, loving, playful". The biggest breeder -- at least 12 dogs plus a litter of puppies. They're raising them all in the house -- no kennels, but are crated while breeder is at work. No kid experience, has had male experience.

Bi-black: 9 months non-neutered male. "Doesn't have a shy bone in his body . . . just the personality you're looking for (based on my description of our family and lifestyle)", housebroken, raised in a house with kids until 12 weeks, then sold to another breeder who doesn't have kids but has grandkids visiting regularly -- apparently does well with that. Housebroken and crate trained.

Bi-blue: 6 month old non-neutered male. We talked on the phone so I don't remember the exact description, but I actually called about another dog, and she said "oh, you don't want that one, with the lifestyle you describe, you want a more outgoing dog, but one that's easy going. I have the perfect puppy for you" and described him. I thought that was really promising since the dog I was calling on (3 year old female) was probably harder to place. Has met kids but not lived with them. I'm pretty sure he's being raised in a home. I think not housebroken (since we talked on the phone I can't go back and check the emails).

These would be the three that I would be most interested in, by far. Housebreaking a 2 year old dog can be easy, but can be quite difficult. And I'd go for the actual home-raised dogs over one that was raised with access to one room, gated off from normal daily activities.

But that's just me personally. And as a huge admirer of blue merle Shelties, I hate to say that I would just eliminate the "shy" dog outright.

[Miasmamma]

Originally Posted by Momily

Thanks for that opinion, would you guys give me opinions on the other dogs, let me know what else might be red flags? It happens that I'm looking at 5 dogs each of whom is in the 5 allowed colors for shelties. I could care less about color, but it's kind of cool to have a rainbow to look at, so I'll refer to them that way. All 5 dogs are tested for everything they can be tested for at their age (so the 2 year olds are tested for hips, the others aren't) parents are tested for everything. All 5 dogs were being grown out for show and something happened that made that not an option (too big, too small, crooked teeth etc . . . ) Any dog that isn't spayed/neutered will be ASAP.

Blue Merle: The shy one -- 2 year old spayed female, has lived in a home situation, house broken, crate trained, leash trained, has been shown a little. Has little experience with kids.

Sable and White: 2 year old non-neutered male. Described as "more settled, but loves to play . . . sweet, loving, smart". Has won several show ribbons. Crate and Leash trained, but not housebroken. The only dog (I think) not raised in a house -- lives in a "room connected to a house -- not exactly a kennel" with a doggie door and a yard. Owner says she spends lots of time with them. Only dog raised with kids -- they have a boy a couple of years younger than mine.

Tri: 14 months non-spayed female. Described as "outgoing, smart, sweet, loving, playful". The biggest breeder -- at least 12 dogs plus a litter of puppies. They're raising them all in the house -- no kennels, but are crated while breeder is at work. No kid experience, has had male experience.

Bi-black: 9 months non-neutered male. "Doesn't have a shy bone in his body . . . just the personality you're looking for (based on my description of our family and lifestyle)", housebroken, raised in a house with kids until 12 weeks, then sold to another breeder who doesn't have kids but has grandkids visiting regularly -- apparently does well with that. Housebroken and crate trained.

Bi-blue: 6 month old non-neutered male. We talked on the phone so I don't remember the exact description, but I actually called about another dog, and she said "oh, you don't want that one, with the lifestyle you describe, you want a more outgoing dog, but one that's easy going. I have the perfect puppy for you" and described him. I thought that was really promising since the dog I was calling on (3 year old female) was probably harder to place. Has met kids but not lived with them. I'm pretty sure he's being raised in a home. I think not housebroken (since we talked on the phone I can't go back and check the emails).

We're supposed to meet the Blue Merle, Bi Black and Bi Blue this weekend. I'm kind of hoping to meet the Sable because I think he sounds awesome.

Any thoughts?

I think I would look long and hard at the last two. They both sound like they would be a better fit for you, and that being said, I am biased towards boys! My weim is a bitch, but she will be the last one I think! I love my boys!! As for housebreaking, it can be a challenge, but it may be easier with an older male. Will both breeder allow you to neuter or are they reserving the option to show? In any case, a crate and tethering the dog to you for the first few days will be a huge help in the housebreaking department. Good luck and let us know how it goes!