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Assessing dogs/how shy is too shy? - Page 2

post #21 of 33
The dog in the bedroom thing is NOT a big deal, and the Sheltie people are so USED to describing their dogs as shy that they really just go ahead and say that to everyone and predict the worst in every situation to a pet person because they have to.

Meeting a dog in an enclosed room is kind of common in Shelties, actually. They just are REALLY used to their own people, and take meeting new ones differently than other breeds. This breeder is a GOOD breeder for taking that in to account and for getting a new DOG person, not to mention a new SHELTIE person, prepared.
post #22 of 33
Blue Merle: The shy one -- 2 year old spayed female, has lived in a home situation, house broken, crate trained, leash trained, has been shown a little. Has little experience with kids.
Sounds to me like you are kind of worried about this one. I don't think it's worth worrying about, but you have to be comfortable with it.


Sable and White: 2 year old non-neutered male. Described as "more settled, but loves to play . . . sweet, loving, smart". Has won several show ribbons. Crate and Leash trained, but not housebroken. The only dog (I think) not raised in a house -- lives in a "room connected to a house -- not exactly a kennel" with a doggie door and a yard. Owner says she spends lots of time with them. Only dog raised with kids -- they have a boy a couple of years younger than mine. Sounds great. What does she mean by "show ribbons?" Has the dog got points? Or did it just win "ribbons" which is basically meaningless. I throw out most of my "ribbons."

Tri: 14 months non-spayed female. Described as "outgoing, smart, sweet, loving, playful". The biggest breeder -- at least 12 dogs plus a litter of puppies. They're raising them all in the house -- no kennels, but are crated while breeder is at work. No kid experience, has had male experience. This one sounds fine, too.

Bi-black: 9 months non-neutered male. "Doesn't have a shy bone in his body . . . just the personality you're looking for (based on my description of our family and lifestyle)", housebroken, raised in a house with kids until 12 weeks, then sold to another breeder who doesn't have kids but has grandkids visiting regularly -- apparently does well with that. Housebroken and crate trained. This one sounds good.

Bi-blue: 6 month old non-neutered male. We talked on the phone so I don't remember the exact description, but I actually called about another dog, and she said "oh, you don't want that one, with the lifestyle you describe, you want a more outgoing dog, but one that's easy going. I have the perfect puppy for you" and described him. I thought that was really promising since the dog I was calling on (3 year old female) was probably harder to place. Has met kids but not lived with them. I'm pretty sure he's being raised in a home. I think not housebroken (since we talked on the phone I can't go back and check the emails).Sounds fine, too.


Just wanted to re-iterate that the whole "dog room" thing is not a big deal. Lots of breeders have a dog room-- anyone who has done it for any length of time NEEDS one. Ours, for example, is attached to the family room. There is ceramic tile in there and movable dog runs. There is a cast iron gate dividing it from the rest of the house, but they can still hear us and see us. They all take turns in the house so they are all house trained, but once you start getting serious about showing and breeding.. you HAVE to have a dog room. Ours is on the "fancy" side... lots of people just convert the basement or garage. My dh built mine. Ours also has an attached gravel yard within our fenced acres of property, so the dogs can go out and not get dirty if it's wet out. Just didn't want the dog room thing to scare you or turn you off. Everyone has one. And if they don't, they want one.
post #23 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miasmamma View Post
I think I would look long and hard at the last two. They both sound like they would be a better fit for you, and that being said, I am biased towards boys! My weim is a bitch, but she will be the last one I think! I love my boys!! As for housebreaking, it can be a challenge, but it may be easier with an older male. Will both breeder allow you to neuter or are they reserving the option to show? In any case, a crate and tethering the dog to you for the first few days will be a huge help in the housebreaking department. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
:

Personally, I wouldn't even go look at the shy girl yet when there are these other guys who sound so much better, kwim? Normal or not for Shelties, I don't think a dog that needs to be confined in order to meet someone would be the best choice for an active, city-dwelling family when there are friendly, more outgoing dogs available as well. I get the feeling that you might feel the same way from your posts Have fun meeting them - you're going to have a great weekend!
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom0810 View Post
The dog in the bedroom thing is NOT a big deal, and the Sheltie people are so USED to describing their dogs as shy that they really just go ahead and say that to everyone and predict the worst in every situation to a pet person because they have to.

Meeting a dog in an enclosed room is kind of common in Shelties, actually. They just are REALLY used to their own people, and take meeting new ones differently than other breeds. This breeder is a GOOD breeder for taking that in to account and for getting a new DOG person, not to mention a new SHELTIE person, prepared.

Wow I wonder if that is just in show bred Shelties. If what you are saying is true that is really pathetic and sounds like breeders need to start re-evaluating their breeding stock and choices.
post #25 of 33
Yeah, there is a big difference between a dog who is reserved and doesn't slobber all over or approach strangers, and one who runs to the furthest spot in the yard and can't be approached if a stranger is on premises.

"Aloof" vs "fearful".
post #26 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girl In The Fire View Post
There is a big difference between shy, aloof, and scared. Personally I would not recommend a shy dog for a novice owner with children. If the person is telling you you need to meet the dog in the bedroom because it will run away from you I personally would not even bother to go see it *JMO*.
i have experience with aussies not shelties (i've met a few but not tons) and aussies are often described as "reserved" which is an entirely different ball of wax than "shy".

i agree that having a one-family dog that is reserved with strangers is fine and honestly, i kind of like them that way. having to meet a dog in an enclosed space because it will run away from you is not shy nor reserved and speaks of a lack of confidence in the dog. NOT a good match.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post
Blue Merle: The shy one -- 2 year old spayed female, has lived in a home situation, house broken, crate trained, leash trained, has been shown a little. Has little experience with kids.

Sable and White: 2 year old non-neutered male.

Tri: 14 months non-spayed female.

Bi-black: 9 months non-neutered male.

Bi-blue
: 6 month old non-neutered male.
i'd go for the two younger males before the older sable as you can get them neutered before the hormones really hit and they'll probably be easier to house-train.

tri-female would be next and sable male would be last though probably either would be okay (i like that the sable has kid experience), i would not consider the shy blue merle.

also, i wouldn't be terribly concerned about the "dog room" either, in lots of breeding/showing operations the dogs live in the kennels outside and get house time. so, if they are already in the house in a room, that's better than out in the kennel all the time.
post #27 of 33
Thread Starter 
Thanks, OK so if I rule out both 2 year olds. I'm curious about your hesitation with the Tri -- is it because she's older or because she's female? Also, that same breeder also just emailed that she's got a 2 year old sable male. I kind of assume that her dogs are housebroken if she's got them in the house all day (she says she raises them like pets). Of course I would ask that officially.

Anyway, would you consider a housebroken, non-neutered 2 year old male?

I'm kind leaning towards the Tri or the bi-black. I really like the fact that the bi-black has kid experience.
post #28 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girl In The Fire View Post
Wow I wonder if that is just in show bred Shelties. If what you are saying is true that is really pathetic and sounds like breeders need to start re-evaluating their breeding stock and choices.
LOL yes, in Shelties and in every other breed, for many reasons! The problem is that they never will. It doesn't mean they are unethical breeders, it does mean that the traits they have picked that are beautiful and WIN are also linked to certain other less desirable traits. That's the dilemma of the breeder. It's such a hard life. You also have small gene pools in many breeds and you just have to work with what you've got. You do the best that you can. It's not like we can just go into the closet and say... okay, for this breeding I would like this, this, and this, and oh some of that and some of that. You have to pick from what's out there.

Sadly, a lot of breeders also let judges and advertising tell them what is a good dog. They breed to the dog of the moment and that is not always a good thing. The dog of the moment may be winning because he's attached to a known "face" and the judges all want to put up that handler and the dog's owner is spending $100,000 a year on advertising so that everyone knows who the dog is... and then all of a sudden it has 20 litters on the ground. When in reality the best dog to breed to could have been sold as a pet and is wasting in someone's back yard, just being a pet.

So you see, it's not all that easy. A lot of breeders TRY to do better, but it's kind of hard when there is so much dishonesty in dogs--whether it's conformation or performance, there is so much dishonesty. Everything becomes about money or reputation (in the ring) after a while.

So yes, should they work on it? Yes. Are some breeders? Of course. But they are not the breeders that are succeeding in the ring, a lot of times. A lot of them give up on showing altogether because there is no way to win sometimes if you breed the dogs with solid temperaments but LOOK the way they do. Not pretty. So they quit showing and then people label them as a "backyard breeder," when in fact they are just the kind of people who SHOULD be breeding because they care.

Sigh... sorry for the rant, OP, but we just talked about this at one of my club meetings. We lose a lot of really idealistic and good people in this sport because they can't compete mentally with all the stress that showing and breeding involves, and you won't win if you can't play the game.
post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom0810 View Post
LOL yes, in Shelties and in every other breed, for many reasons! The problem is that they never will. It doesn't mean they are unethical breeders, it does mean that the traits they have picked that are beautiful and WIN are also linked to certain other less desirable traits. That's the dilemma of the breeder. It's such a hard life.

I am well aware of the differences in temperament between show and work dogs. However I have to strongly disagree when you say they are not unethical for breeding pretty dogs with awful temperaments. If someone truly wanted to better the breed, not stroke their ego, they would and could breed for the whole package and succeed. Breeding for the whole dog is done in less popular breeds it can certainly be done in the more popular breeds. I guess that is a whole other subject and wayyyyy off topic.
post #30 of 33
You actually are not disagreeing with me, You are agreeing with me. Perhaps I did not get my point across, but I was trying to say that the sport needs more idealistic people like you. We lose them, usually before their first five years. Because of what you and I are describing. And it's not the difference between work and show dogs I was describing, either. It's ANY dog that is bred to the standard and that someone is trying to compete with.

It's a fine line on ethics, because The breeders who are breeding (fillin breed name here) ARE members of breed clubs and ARE living up to their codes of ethics, but as such, included in such, is breeding dogs that can win, so that you are not looked upon as a backyard breeder who is just breeding and not showing and winning.

It's very complex, too complex to just say, hey, go and fix it. Or stop breeding "those" dogs. It's way too complicated. Sad, but true.
post #31 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post
Thanks, OK so if I rule out both 2 year olds. I'm curious about your hesitation with the Tri -- is it because she's older or because she's female?

Anyway, would you consider a housebroken, non-neutered 2 year old male?
hmmm.... i'm not sure why i wasn't drawn to the tri-female. i think it was because of the larger numbers of dogs, it's just so much harder to give them individual attention when you have that many.

and i'd for sure consider the 2 year old male... so long as he was housebroken. honestly, i'm not much for intact animals as i think it tends to kind of ramp up their personality. i mean, we had a very alpha spayed girl dog but she was much mellower than the intact bitches that we had.

pssstt... i think lyle sounds great
post #32 of 33
Thread Starter 
To clarify the breeder with the Tri emailed me and said that she has a 2 year old intact male available, coincidentally a sable. She said she raises her dogs in the house as pets so I hope that means they're house broken (I would be very suspect of a dog that spent 2 years in a home without figuring that out). I emailed her to ask.

I should add that he wouldn't stay intact in my house, but someone posted that neutering a dog later is different from neutering them when they're young, so I thought I'd point out that he's intact as of now.
post #33 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post
I should add that he wouldn't stay intact in my house, but someone posted that neutering a dog later is different from neutering them when they're young, so I thought I'd point out that he's intact as of now.
i think that it's never too late to neuter or spay but that the longer they stay intact to more it affects their personality. not necessarily bad, just maybe a reason to go for a slightly younger dog.

i'm so impressed at how much research and work you are doing to get the right dog, whichever one you pick is going to be very lucky :
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