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Article...Stop worrying about your children! - Page 5

post #81 of 102
Did you see the post in parenting where a woman's neighbours called the cops on her because her toddler escaped and was running down the street with her in tow?

I think this isn't happening because people don't want to get arrested or have their kids taken by CPS or get a mark on their record, in case of a divorce that ends in a custody proceeding. It's litigation that scares most people about this (including me!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sionainne View Post
In the salon article from the OP, the FRK author says:

"My big idea is: 'Take Our Children to the Park and Leave Them There Day.' I think that would be a great thing for our country."

Why haven't I seen 10,000 meetup events like this happening across the USA? I think it's because it just doesn't sound like a good idea to a lot of people.
post #82 of 102
I was thinking about this thread this weekend cause we rented season 6 of penn and tellers bullshit. Anyway, one of the episodes is about stranger danger, it's a good episode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pNhMR4Vs9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHPUo...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b1XC...eature=related
post #83 of 102
I LOVE P&T!!

Last week they were showing the BS behind thinking a video game creates killers... they're fantastic!
post #84 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraS View Post
I LOVE P&T!!

Last week they were showing the BS behind thinking a video game creates killers... they're fantastic!
definitely!
post #85 of 102
Quote:
I think this isn't happening because people don't want to get arrested or have their kids taken by CPS or get a mark on their record
This is what I tell my 4-year-old when he wants to stay in the car while I go into a store: "I know you would stay in your seat and wait safely for me. But lots of people think kids are not safe alone, especially in a parking lot, and they would call the police and get us into trouble." One time he asked a lot of questions about exactly what kind of trouble, and the answers were a bit disturbing to him, but I still think it's better than telling him he can't stay in the car because he WOULD get kidnapped, as many parents do!

Penn & Teller's show is pretty good in general, but the one about recycling was garbage. :
post #86 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnviroBecca View Post
This is what I tell my 4-year-old when he wants to stay in the car while I go into a store: "I know you would stay in your seat and wait safely for me. But lots of people think kids are not safe alone, especially in a parking lot, and they would call the police and get us into trouble." One time he asked a lot of questions about exactly what kind of trouble, and the answers were a bit disturbing to him, but I still think it's better than telling him he can't stay in the car because he WOULD get kidnapped, as many parents do!

Penn & Teller's show is pretty good in general, but the one about recycling was garbage. :
eh, I think the second hand smoke one was a little off as well, but I watch it mostly for entertainment, I mean, they are magicians/comedians...

Anyway, isn't the reason you shouldn't leave your kid in a car due to temps, like when it's 90 out the car can become 130 in like 10 minutes, not due to kidnappings? Anyway, I couldn't leave my kids alone in the car...if I leave them alone in their bedroom for 10 minutes they draw on the walls (rented apartment, so not allowed, and they know this), I don't want to know what thing they know not to do that they would do if left alone in the car for 10 minutes.
post #87 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnviroBecca View Post
This is what I tell my 4-year-old when he wants to stay in the car while I go into a store: "I know you would stay in your seat and wait safely for me. But lots of people think kids are not safe alone, especially in a parking lot, and they would call the police and get us into trouble." One time he asked a lot of questions about exactly what kind of trouble, and the answers were a bit disturbing to him, but I still think it's better than telling him he can't stay in the car because he WOULD get kidnapped, as many parents do!
nak

i say that too! "you need to do X because otherwise someone will say i'm not taking care of you and they might want to give you a new mommy." (she doesn't care about "trouble" lol)
post #88 of 102
I am also of a mixed mind, not regarding children's needs for freedom, but just how that plays out in my life. And I'm becoming seriously weary of how often I also have to tell my children that we do xyz because other people are uncomfortable if we don't/might think they are not being cared for and remove them from our home and family, etc...

We live in the woods, and in bear country. For this reason, we have a large range with a bright blue string tied tree-to-tree to mark the perimeter of the area that I feel comfortable about them being without supervision. We have no fences and our three oldest play outside around the cabin and to the markers all day with a window open for me to hear them. We also have geese, who I trust to provide an advanced warning system, unless they were to hide instead- there's no real telling what they'd do if faced with a grizzly or black bear or cougar.

Anyway, it's usually in town where we have all of these manufactured rules about walking proximity and wandering ranges. In the deli, ds1 wandered around out of sight for a long while once he'd finished eating and i still was. At the park, all of my dc go in whatever directions they choose, and I do keep a closer eye on our 20 mo. old, but even he is often at the other end of the playground.

For the youngest, the most common problem is when others try to stop him from doing what he is competent or willing to risk doing. I don't climb with him or hover unless he's asked me to, which is next to never unless the challenge is completely new to him.

If we had a dog, I don't think I would be even as concerned about safety as I barely am now. I would let the three older ones wander with the dog, but this is a very rural area with dirt roads and not a city.

*I* feel tense in the city, and so do my dc. We're just not used to the pace of the city, but even so, I am happy to let them run a block ahead, from light to light.

My biggest concern about the city is that while I rust my dc, people in general aren't anticipating children even being there like they did when I was a child. In parking lots, it is imperative that I have all of their hands because drivers simply are not looking for their little bodies way down there. They see me, though. In the streets which here are very pedestrian-friendly and even in stores, my dc are commonly nearly knocked over by fast-moving, unaware people whose gaze simply doesn't meet the little people. My dc have not been knocked over because they are very adept at maneuvering their bodies to avoid it, but the adults are clearly not aware and when they become aware, after near-misses, they apologise to me, surprised by having such a close encounter with a little one. I see this all the time.

I don't think that's reason to hole up, though, just something to consider and maybe remedy with fluorescent orange hats.

I was extremely free-range as a child, in many diverse neighbourhoods and cities in Canada, and lots of dangerous things happened to me, injurious to this day. I do wish my parents had been more aware and concerned for my safety. They didn't consider the environment or my needs. If I said that I was afraid to walk home in the dark, they said I'd be fine. I wasn't always. I was also taught to suppress my instincts. Bad combo, imo.

So, my solution is to assess the environment, my child's abilities and desires, encourage their instinctual development and awareness, help them strategise and work through things as they want my help, and otherwise, to let them learn, which I think they are innately competent to do.

Our children wander further away as they are comfortable, just like when they were babies. They have a sense of how far is too far, I think, except the 20 mo. old presently- or maybe it is just me... hard to tell...

We also equip them with observations in situations they haven't encountered, like at the family park day we happened across on the weekend. We just pointed to a few things so they'd be aware of their presence. Then they ran about the various tents and activities and I stayed with our 20 mo. old while he wandered over to listen to the music in the front row.

When it was time to go, the three oldest all knew where the others were, even though they'd gone in different directions, and we gathered and left together.

I am learning how to apply my understanding and being open to our dc's expressions of needs and desires every day, and this aspect of being together seems to be in constant flux too, according to our situation.

I guess I just anticipate that we'll all adapt to whatever we need to, and given that we're making a conscious effort to meet one another's needs, even if I miss some and mess up some, and some more, my dc will have learned well enough what they need to go around me if I'm the obstacle- though I'd rather never be that!

I hope to be more like a lighthouse they can rely on to be there when they want to come home. Always there, always welcoming and indicating a safe and warm place to be, and to leave as desired. I try to be that in everything and everywhere for them.
post #89 of 102
Today I let my almost-three wander while I paid for the Y nursery. She was within earshot, playing "hide-and-seek" (i.e. dart and watch mommy freak) by running into the women's locker room. A lady urged her out and glared at me. As if I wouldn't have people glaring at me if I were making a red mark on her arm holding her and scowling as she flailed around. :

So the point is, what did my daughter learn from that?

She learned that strangers return you to your mama. Good job, lady!
post #90 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
Today I let my almost-three wander while I paid for the Y nursery. She was within earshot, playing "hide-and-seek" (i.e. dart and watch mommy freak) by running into the women's locker room. A lady urged her out and glared at me. As if I wouldn't have people glaring at me if I were making a red mark on her arm holding her and scowling as she flailed around. :

So the point is, what did my daughter learn from that?

She learned that strangers return you to your mama. Good job, lady!
This is interesting. In that same thread where the mama got the police called, many people chimed in about how their child ran off and people just let them go by, or held a door open. Seems if you happen to run into a loose kid and you help out and bring the kid back to mom your a rude person, and if you just let them do their thing you are a rude and uncaring person.

Personally, if I see a stray kid, I don't worry about it. Unless the kid is visibly upset, or being chased by an adult saying "stop that kid", I'm just going to go about my business.

I have so many fond memories of being out an about, doing my own thing, as a kid. I took the bus in kindy, rode my bike around the neighborhood, walked to the corner store, got into some trouble, and dealt with bullies all by myself. Lots of learning experiences that I wouldn't have had if mom was following me around.

The one time something really bad happend, it was when I was in the front yard while my mom was unloading things from the car into the house. Two men in a van stopped in front of the house and called me over asking my name. The passenger started getting out of the van, and I screamed my fool head off and ran for the house. By the time my I got into the house and my mom came outside they were gone. I was afraid to go outside for a few weeks.

My point is that bad things can happen regardless of how "right there" you are. Life is full of things you can't control, and living in fear of that 1 in a million thing happening to you or your kid is no way to live.
post #91 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by fork View Post
My point is that bad things can happen regardless of how "right there" you are. Life is full of things you can't control, and living in fear of that 1 in a million thing happening to you or your kid is no way to live.
It's funny you said this. I once got seriously slammed for letting my 18+ month old(s) out in the back yard alone to play - they figured out the dog door, they head out, they play in a wonderful safe 6' fenced back yard with sandboxes, swingsets, whatever. I'm inside, the back of the house has windows and the big glass door, and I can see them whenever I look up... so they're fine. I love it.

Anyways, the only time (so far, knock on wood) either of my girls ever got hurt - like blood and maybe scar hurt - was when Daddy was back there sitting on the deck and Autumn came running at him so he would catch her and she tripped and fell and hit her forehead on the corner of the deck! Daddy was less than 2 feet from her, but she got hurt.

Gasp!

I've often been told that "they'll get hurt playing by themselves" in the back yard. Sure, they could. And they can get hurt with someone less than 30 inches from them too! I'm betting every mom here has a story similar... you just can't bubble wrap them - nor would I want to.
post #92 of 102
Disclaimer: I didn't read the whole article and I didn't read the whole thread.

BUT - I think the safety culture that has grown around kids has made them safer, and the way it is practiced by most people I know, it has not stunted their development.

I was raised with huge latitude in the 70s, I think because my mom raised my brothers and sisters in the 50s and 60s, and was so lax with them it would be considered criminal by today's standards. But I was often frightened, I think I experienced a lot of stuff too early, I learned to be tough and jaded, and got hurt way more than I wanted to. I was attacked by dogs several times, was subject to bullying pretty regularly, and had older kids try sexual games with me. None of that kind of stuff has come into play for me as an adult, though, and I don't think going through it prepared me for anything I have done in my adult life. I would have liked a little more adult presence!

Anyhow - I wanted to post to show that death by accidents (not including motor vehicle accidents) in the US has been declining steadily for kids in the past decades. I think that our "safety culture" in the US has led to this change and I applaud it wholeheartedly. Here is a summary of the data from the CDC web site:

Number of average annual deaths per 100,000 people due to accidents (excludes motor vehicle accidents)

.......................AGE RANGE
Year span.......< 1....1-4...5-14

1960-1964........88.....31.....19
1965-1969........80.....33.....20
1970-1974........57.....31.....20
1975-1979........38.....27.....17
1980-1984........28.....23.....14
1985-1989........25.....20.....12
1990-1994........23.....17.....10
1995-1998........20.....14.....9

What can you take away from these data? Either:

(1) gee, kids are safer now so we should loosen up. OR
(2) wow, all that safety consciousness has really helped, let's keep it up!

I am all for #2!

Also note that these are data for deaths only - simply because better data are kept on deaths than injuries. I assume the injury rates are much higher, and also follow the same decreasing trend. For most people, injury rates are more relevant...
post #93 of 102
That's not the only information that should be taken into account.

Kids ARE safer today. There are NOT molesters around every corner, murderers lurking in the mall, rapists standing in the grocery store. Those are the stats that you need to review. Crime stats. Things like that. Lenore does a great job on her site of covering those.

But hey, it's a free (and safe) world - you can do what you choose with your children. I'm sorry you had a personally bad experience - I know people who have died in auto wrecks, and I've had two myself - but that doesn't mean I can prevent my children from riding in a car, KWIM? Again, it's calculated risk. I freely let my kids roam because I know they're going to be fine. No worries here!
post #94 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraS View Post
That's not the only information that should be taken into account.

Kids ARE safer today. There are NOT molesters around every corner, murderers lurking in the mall, rapists standing in the grocery store. Those are the stats that you need to review. Crime stats. Things like that. Lenore does a great job on her site of covering those.

But hey, it's a free (and safe) world - you can do what you choose with your children. I'm sorry you had a personally bad experience - I know people who have died in auto wrecks, and I've had two myself - but that doesn't mean I can prevent my children from riding in a car, KWIM? Again, it's calculated risk. I freely let my kids roam because I know they're going to be fine. No worries here!
Yeah, so you choose interpretation (1) of the data I posted. Fine for you - not for me. I understand risk assessment - I do it for a living That's why I am not so worried about abductions and crime, and I didn't post anything about that. I posted about accidents because that's what I am trying to avoid by supervising my kids at the level that I do.
post #95 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by fork View Post
This is interesting. In that same thread where the mama got the police called, many people chimed in about how their child ran off and people just let them go by, or held a door open. Seems if you happen to run into a loose kid and you help out and bring the kid back to mom your a rude person, and if you just let them do their thing you are a rude and uncaring person..
The scowl was rude, not her actions, and I smiled at her and thanked her because I knew she was just trying to help. I was just annoyed that she felt the need to give me a "look". I return kids to their parents all the time at the Y (and the supermarket) but I don't scowl! And I hope I'm teaching them to be trusting.

Anyway, re: accidents, what kind of accidents are those? I'm not opposed to putting bleach on the top shelf (or keeping it out of the house altogether), putting outlet covers on electrical outlets, etc. I am opposed to keeping kids on such a short leash that they're never alone and never have the chance to develop their own instincts.

And if kids are still just as at risk because they spend more time in the car getting driven to "safe" places to play, but die in the car on the way there, vs. dying in the backyard, frankly, what's the difference? A child is a child, a loss is a loss.

Finally, molestation, kidnapping, and murder- what people so often bring up when they worry about a kid at a park alone- are not "accidents".

So I don't find that list compelling counter-evidence.
post #96 of 102
I think:

Amen.
post #97 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by aran View Post
Anyhow - I wanted to post to show that death by accidents (not including motor vehicle accidents) in the US has been declining steadily for kids in the past decades. I think that our "safety culture" in the US has led to this change and I applaud it wholeheartedly. Here is a summary of the data from the CDC web site:

Number of average annual deaths per 100,000 people due to accidents (excludes motor vehicle accidents)

.......................AGE RANGE
Year span.......< 1....1-4...5-14

1960-1964........88.....31.....19
1965-1969........80.....33.....20
1970-1974........57.....31.....20
1975-1979........38.....27.....17
1980-1984........28.....23.....14
1985-1989........25.....20.....12
1990-1994........23.....17.....10
1995-1998........20.....14.....9

What can you take away from these data? Either:

(1) gee, kids are safer now so we should loosen up. OR
(2) wow, all that safety consciousness has really helped, let's keep it up!

I am all for #2!

Also note that these are data for deaths only - simply because better data are kept on deaths than injuries. I assume the injury rates are much higher, and also follow the same decreasing trend. For most people, injury rates are more relevant...
I think it's interesting that the biggest drop is for children under 1 year old - those least likely to be affected by playing unsupervised. So I won't have any regrets about letting my children have a childhood.
post #98 of 102
Mamas (and Papas), I love all you guys. Until someone has walked a mile in your shoes, it's too easy for me to say "Unlike me who is enlightened, you are obviously motivated by an overly abundant attitude of __________ in the world"

Has anyone ever read "My Side Of The Mountain" (fiction)? It is fantastic! It features the ultimate and I would say, only true free range kid there has ever been. I think Sam is about 11 or 12 yo. He had a great time -- I think most people fantasize about having the kind of boy's life the protagonist did: He left home in NYC to live alone in some old family land in the Catskills. He built a little house inside a giant tree. He had a trained falcon as a best friend and small game hunter. He made all his winter clothes and shoes out of deerskins. He entertains occasional human guests in his tree cave house. He completely lived off the land. (And had he broken his leg anywhere in the mountains, he would've been screwed and probably died in the woods) His free rangeness ended when, after being gone from home for about 1 year in the Catskills Mtns, his parents and sibs coms to see him in the mountains. He's elated to see them. He learns they plan to build a house right there on his side of the mountain and protests. His mom basically says something like: "Sam, when you're 18 years old, you can do as you like. But until then, all the law I can find says I have to take care of you. And my way of taking you means a having house with walls and a door." So her and his interpretation of "MAMA IS CLOSING IN" is actually having to live inside a house for most for the year.

The ending is really good (I haven't given it away) with what it implies. If you are feeling up in the air about all the FR stuff, check out this book at the library. The book's ending (as opposed to the movie's ending) is very appropos to this discussion of FR-ness.

Just like the statement "I'm an AP parent, and you're not. I can't believe you're not AP. You and yours will suffer for it" is uninteresting, so is substituting "I'm a FR parent and you're not. I can't believe you're not FR. You and yours will suffer for it". Unless you can prove your AP-ness by some universal ex-utero standard for AP-ness like there is for citizenship, it just don't matter. People do give up some AP longings in light of some harsh realities like car seats even if the baby cries in protest. Then there's diapering and EC. By definition, the only true AP parent is a biological mama who is still attached her baby in the womb via umbilical cord. So the purists' definition is a little restrictive and basically weird but this is the only literally true AP parent. Short of that, all AP is an attitude manifest into actions. And one's actions always must find balance to get along in life. Otherwise I suppose you become an extremist and, for FR-ers, maybe start arguing for lowering the # of police force and EMS everywhere (world is safer right?), and the emancipation of all minors lest they experience tyranny in the form of parenting and denial of total freedom.

I am surprised that FRK has gathered any attention. Just more evidence that parents with enough money and time on their hands will buy another book feeding their neurosis that they are doing something wrong. While FRK happens to empower parents to take a nap in the good name of children's lib, that's fine but there is nothing new in this. One must, however, recognize that it is trial by fire. I doubt the Walshes or McCanns advocate the FRK book. I doubt the author would even want the McCanns endorsement. I doubt anyone advertises in Craigslist for free range babysitters. (Or maybe they would. I won't judge them if they do. I'm just saying I think it is very unlikely they do and obvious to me why)

Here's an activity for the kids to experience freedom ... (you're waiting for a bookish answer from me aren't you?) ... start by pretending they already have it, and help them love, really love and cherish, what they have.
post #99 of 102
Aran wrote:
Quote:
I wanted to post to show that death by accidents (not including motor vehicle accidents) in the US has been declining steadily for kids in the past decades. . .
What can you take away from these data? Either:

(1) gee, kids are safer now so we should loosen up. OR
(2) wow, all that safety consciousness has really helped, let's keep it up!
Or (3) accidents are less likely to be fatal as surgical techniques and emergency response have improved. That's the reason U.S. troops in the current war are less likely to die than troops in earlier wars--it's not because fighting a war is safer than it used to be or because the military has become more safety conscious. I'm not certain how much of a factor it is in children's death rates, but it's certainly a possibility to consider when all you have is the number of deaths, not the number of accidents.

Interesting that motor vehicle accidents are not included in these stats. I've read elsewhere that vehicle accident deaths among children have increased...and it's not because cars are more dangerous, it's because children are spending more time in cars. Cars are my biggest safety worry for my kid--that he'll either be hurt as a passenger or hit as a pedestrian--and statistically, that's a lot more realistic than worrying about kidnapping.
post #100 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnviroBecca View Post
Aran wrote:

Interesting that motor vehicle accidents are not included in these stats. I've read elsewhere that vehicle accident deaths among children have increased...and it's not because cars are more dangerous, it's because children are spending more time in cars. Cars are my biggest safety worry for my kid--that he'll either be hurt as a passenger or hit as a pedestrian--and statistically, that's a lot more realistic than worrying about kidnapping.

This is my mindset too. I was explaining to my sister that it is best to keep her infant dd rf as long as possible, and talking about the laws, etc. with my grandma present and she said something about back in the day they just sat the baby in a bassinett on the seat etc., implying that the carseat laws are overly causious etc, and i reminded her that back in the 50's kids just weren't in cars all that much and at the length and speed as most children today...For instance i would imagine children that sah with their parents rather than commute daily to a sitter are more likely to be in an accident as they are in the car more, etc. But also as you mentioned, i too am afraid of ds being struck by a car more than being abducted by a stranger. mainly because of his age that he doesn't have the judgement necessary to notice a car backing out,etc.

I live in a culdesac where the kids run wild in the streets, there are 5 homeschoolers on the block and the kids play outside a lot and so do the ps children. But these kids are a lot older than 3 yo ds, and i don't allow him to play outside in the street with the other kids unless i am in the front in eyesight. I try to encourage ds to play in the fenced backyard alone, but he won't stay out there unless dh or i am out there. I do consider myself a bit overprotective, we live right off a busy street where the speed limit is 40, but also for his age i don't think it is appropriate for me to allow him to 'play all day with the neighbor kids in the streets', but in a few years when he is older and more aware of his surroundings and fully potty trained, i will probably relax a bit and allow him to play in front w/o my constant watch
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