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leash training/walking and collar discussion

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
Our boston (almost 12 weeks) has a regular nylon collar. We use the leash when taking her out to pee only just to keep her from getting away, have just started attempting leash walking a bit in the house, using a bit of food to entice her to keep walking with us. It has gone fairly OK in the house because in that environment she pretty reliably follows a come and sit command now even off leash, but she is waaaay distracted outside when she has been tied to a 20ft lead and I hold it at leash length (maybe 2.5ft away from her collar...I am hoping that the distractabilty decreases with age, LOL!) I supervise her outside on a tie out sometimes throwing the ball and practicing come, and notice she is very much distracted out there of course.

She is already getting into pulling on the leash, especially if distracted. I tend to just stop our practice until she settles or save it for later. Sometimes our "sessions" are only maybe 3-5 min at most, of me keeping the leash slack and keeping her coming by my knee with food. Any advice on stopping the pulling in the opposite direction? (I try to not pull back and have it a tug of war). It's like she feels the pull, and it is enticing her to pull more if she senses me pulling back in any way.

The vet doesn't want us to venture too far from the yard and maybe the front of our street as she is waiting for one more vaccine, so I am thinking ahead to when she is older here. I don't think that a haltie would work due to her short muzzle length. Same with Cesar Millan's Illusion collar as she will have a fairly short neck as an adult. I don't know what to think about a choke collar, as I don't want to misuse it and I think she is way too young right now anyways for one as I don't want to hurt her spine.

What would you do about the pulling? I am trying to be patient here.
post #2 of 16
Loose leash walking is one of the hardest things to teach I dog. Every puppy class you see this-it is often the number one complaint besides mouthing.

It is not something she will pick up overnight. There are several methods you can try. You can stand like a tree when she forges ahead and praise/treat when she comes back or the leash goes slack. I've had mixed success with this method.

You can put equal pressure on the lead as she pulls-you are not jerking her back, just not giving anymore slack. Once she releases the tension you can praise.

I would also do a lot of on lead work in the house where you roam around and treat her for being in the right place-ie not forging ahead or lagging behind. Teach her to pay attention to where you are indoors first and then expect to also have to work on it very hard outdoors where the real distractions are.
post #3 of 16
See, I've never had any trouble teaching loose lead walking. I can do it on any dog in a matter of minutes.

But, since I get nothing but criticism here :, OP is you would like to know how to do it, you can pm me.

It should only take like 5 minutes to teach.
post #4 of 16
Oh for goodness sakes-you get nothing but criticism because you approach every dog training issue with only one method and it is a harsh method at that.

There are so many better ways then the way you teach and I wish you would not turn every thread into a dominance related battle that must be won. You take all the joy out of training a puppy with your methods.

How you train your dogs is your business but you should be called on the harsh methods you advocate to newbie owners over the internet.
post #5 of 16
It's so funny, but nothing I do is harsh. All of my dogs and clients are happy and healthy and most of them have titles.

I don't do that in any thread actually, I give one way of doing things and then get flamed. Every time. Like I say, there is more than one way to get something done. I have learned over the years that the best way is the quickest way. I would rather give my dog one or two good corrections in its life than sit and try to do things in a "kinder gentler" way that doesn't work, or takes weeks for the dog to get. For me, getting the basics out of the way quickly, I have more time to get to the meat of training and get dogs out and showing and working. I would rather give one or two leash and collar corrections than spend weeks trying to get a dog to do what I am asking. It's better to do that and have a dog that understands what I am asking and does it... than have a dog that doesn't get it and runs out in traffic or some other horrible thing.

I don't know why my methods are associated with anything negative. The dogs get it, they are happy and they work for me. I have people come up at dog shows all the time and ask me how I have trained my dogs. It's so much fun for all if a dog is trained well.

Harsh? Hardly. Effective? Yes. I think the only reason people think the leash and collar method is harsh is that they don't get it, or haven't done it themselves. Does a pop on the lead look harsh? I guess, if someone doesn't get it. But it is not harsh to the dog... I have put my own training collars on my self and they do not hurt a bit. And it's very effective. The thing is, you show the dog what you want over and over before they ever get corrected, so the DOG is telling you how it should be corrected.

I don't get in to any of the "kinder gentler" training methods because I think they are silly and they don't work as fast or as lastingly as the way I train. Which, by the way, is not any less "kind" or "gentle". There is just a lot of misinformation and wrong impressions out there about leash corrections... people have just gotten a little nuts about it lately.

Anyway, I am not going to debate training anymore. I have the right to do things my way, last time I checked, and I have the option to tell other people about it... last time I checked! But for the sake of letting the op know... it's a really easy thing to train, and my students learn it in the first class. The first 15 minutes of the first class, actually, and then we get on to the fun stuff.
post #6 of 16
This is what we've been using with our dog:

http://www.sporn.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=SPUS100

She was pulling so hard, I got pulled down a couple of times when we first got her. This halter has been a lifesaver and she is really starting to understand that when she pulls, she won't get far and it will not be comfy. It kind of pulls up under their front legs, not painful or anything like that, probably just a weird "this doesn't feel how I normally walk" feeling. We can finally take her on walks and not be physically exhausted by the pulling, etc.
post #7 of 16
I would start with a flat collar and depending on how that goes move up to a martingale or a small prong collar. I know many people have had good results with the plastic prongs, and they look "friendlier" than regular prongs.

Here are a couple of good articles about training collars:
http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/55/97/
http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/53/97/
http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/19/97/
post #8 of 16


I can tell you what we've done and has worked for us! This is going to be long, but hopefully helpful!

First off, your 12 week old puppy is still a baby. So I always advise people to keep that in mind. Just like babies, they have very short attention spans - so don't be surprised if five minutes is all a puppy can handle before they get distracted by butterflies, ants, grass, the air ... It's best to break training sessions down into lots of little snippets than try to cram it all into one marathon.

Imagine for a minute you came to my apartment. I told you we were going to play a game, but I wasn't going to tell you the rules. You can learn them as we go. You take a step forward, I jab you with my elbow. Okay, you won't do that. You turn around. I jab you again. Hm, not that either. You sit down, I give your hiney a kick. Now you have no idea what-so-ever what I want. Playing the game without knowing the rules sucks and you're definitely losing!

This is essentially what happens when we punish/correct a puppy. They don't know "the game" of heel yet, they don't know the rules, the objective, anything. We have to teach them the game first, then, once we're sure they know the rules, we can think about ways to discourage breaking the rules. Learning takes lots of repetition, think of how many times you had to practice before riding a bike became natural, or playing bridge didn't require a guidebook. Your puppy would appreciate the same courtesy being extended to his learning too Very few people can ride a bike their first try, very few puppies learn to walk politely on a leash the first time.

Let's go back to the original example of you at my apartment. Eventually, if I kept poking and prodding you, you would probably figure out to walk next to me is the point of the game. Afterall, you're not braindead! But, do you think you would offer a lot of behaviors in the future of games at my house? The next time we play what are you going to do? You would do the least amount required to avoid my punishment. I don't want my puppies (or friends lol) working like that. I like to see behaviors offered, as that's a super easy way to train - and I don't want my dog working for me just to avoid an undesirable consequence. I want them working for me because they know offering up things I deem desirable will lead to good things. (See: 101 Things to do with a Box) This makes training future things easier!

If I were to take you into a new room now you'd probably sit and wait for me to force you to do something, that's a sure way to avoid my elbow jabs and boot to hiney. That's fine if I want to teach you to lay down, I'll just shove you down and you'll learn that way. But what if I wanted you to pick up my phone when I drop it? You're not going near that thing because I didn't tell you to - so how will I force you to grab it? My puppy might go investigate it, I could reward that and work up to being specific to putting it in its mouth and carrying it to me.

Now, back to the walking on a leash thing! You're doing great luring with food, that's perfect to teach the puppy where he or she belongs. One game that we play is "catch me." When puppy starts to get distracted, get your voice high-pitched, get super excited ("Oh puppy, puppy, puppy!! Comeon comeon comeon!!") and go off the other direction. Once they get to you treat them and go back to heeling. You need to be the most interesting, coolest, tastiest thing in the yard. Which brings me to another point! Train in one spot with very minimal distractions to begin with. As puppy learns what is expected you can challenge them in the future - but we want to set them up for success at the start!

Like you've done, I've had good success with just stopping when puppy pulls. Once they stop (and this might be a while, wait it out) call them to you, reward for coming, and off you go again! This will take *a lot* of repetition, but it will be worth it in the end just like riding a bike is super sweet on a nice day

As for training collars and devices, I restrict those to use on adult dogs that know what I want. For instance, once my Jake got so big he could pull me down a hill after squirrels, we got an easy-walk harness. He understood what "heel" meant, so I felt comfortable using something like that on him. He knew the game and the rules - and I need to not fall over if a squirrel darts out in front of us! The only training collar I would use on a puppy under 6 months is a martingale so they can't slip out if they're wont to do that. Jake also competes in obedience, and has titles - so, so far I don't think I've ruined him.

One of the first things we teach before heel is "watch me." Have you worked on that? I'll explain what we do just in case you haven't. Get puppy interested in you and some treats. Standing, put treats in your hand and make sure puppy knows they're there. Stand with your arms away from your sides. The puppy will look at your hands, where the food is. The second they look at your eyes, say "Yes!" (or whatever quick, short praise word you choose) and give the treat. Keep doing this over and over. Puppy will quickly learn the way to make food rain from the sky is to look in your eyes. Then, begin cuing "watch me" as the puppy looks at you.

This makes it so much easier to deal with distractions when you're training heeling! If puppy gets distracted by a lint ball on the carpet you can just say "watch me!" give them a reward for watching you, and start over. I have never ever seen a dog conniving enough to get intentionally distracted just so they can be issued a watch command and get a treat - but lots of owners worry about that

Lastly, I don't make my dogs heel all the time. When we walk to go potty, they know not to pull on the leash, but do they have to walk right with their shoulder even with my leg? No. When we go to the park they are on long leashes to enjoy *their* time out. Seeking behavior (smelling, exploring etc.) is very important to the development of dogs (once they get their vaccines of course), and it's important they have the opportunity to do that. When I say heel (actually, our command is "with me," heel to Jake is a specific command to move from in front of me to my left side and sit) Jake will come back and walk beside me, but he doesn't heel every time he's on a leash and I don't expect him to either. As a puppy, if he pulled like a sled dog (and boy did he try!) I would stop, "be a tree" and not move, and once he let up the tension we'd head off again.

I hope that helps! Have fun training your puppy! It is so much fun to watch them learn and now is an awesome time to teach them so many things

ETA: This site has lots of good info!
post #9 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by betsyj View Post
Loose leash walking is one of the hardest things to teach I dog. Every puppy class you see this-it is often the number one complaint besides mouthing.

It is not something she will pick up overnight. There are several methods you can try. You can stand like a tree when she forges ahead and praise/treat when she comes back or the leash goes slack. I've had mixed success with this method.

You can put equal pressure on the lead as she pulls-you are not jerking her back, just not giving anymore slack. Once she releases the tension you can praise.

I would also do a lot of on lead work in the house where you roam around and treat her for being in the right place-ie not forging ahead or lagging behind. Teach her to pay attention to where you are indoors first and then expect to also have to work on it very hard outdoors where the real distractions are.
Everything she said. Loose leash is the hardest thing we've worked on with our Rottweiler, and she is a very calm, compliant dog. Add in the curious eager puppy phase, and it's very hard.

Our trainer simply has us turn in a different direction when she starts to pull. Walk at a regular pace, if she pulls, turn to your left or right and continue to walk. It may take some time, but eventually she'll realize what's expected of her and it won't be so hard. Also, getting her to sit when we stopped and stay sitting while others approached was hard at first, so if you have some people willing to help you work on that, it is great for when you do start venturing out in public.

That said, it works great in an environment that she's used to, but once she's out somewhere new, all bets are off. We do our best to take our dog everywhere with us that she can go, just to get her used to walking in crowds. Once your dog is fully vaxed, I would make sure she's in crowds often enough that she's not over excited and unable to focus on training.
post #10 of 16
Also, our trainer doesn't want us to use anything but a basic collar and leash. Nothing retractable or stretchy or any kind of chain.

For the Canine Good Citizen test (which also helps for homeowners insurance and such) the dog will have to walk on a regular leash and collar, so we've always trained with just that. No fancy training collars, no gentle leaders, no harnesses, just a collar and a leash.
post #11 of 16
I have questions about this too. Lyle's foster said that he's well trained in most ways (housebroken, knows sit/down/come/stay, good "manners") but he seems really unfamiliar with a leash and pulls a lot. She switched him to a harness because of it, which she says she'll give us.

We have the "My Smart Puppy" book/DVD which someone here suggested and it has directions, but can I use a harness for them?

Also, he's got the head and neck ruff of a collie - I've heard I shouldn't use a regular collar because it might slip off. Should I use a martingale collar instead of the harness?
post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom0810 View Post
It's so funny, but nothing I do is harsh. All of my dogs and clients are happy and healthy and most of them have titles.
So what is your method for teaching a puppy not to pull?
post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post
I have questions about this too. Lyle's foster said that he's well trained in most ways (housebroken, knows sit/down/come/stay, good "manners") but he seems really unfamiliar with a leash and pulls a lot. She switched him to a harness because of it, which she says she'll give us.

We have the "My Smart Puppy" book/DVD which someone here suggested and it has directions, but can I use a harness for them?

Also, he's got the head and neck ruff of a collie - I've heard I shouldn't use a regular collar because it might slip off. Should I use a martingale collar instead of the harness?
Do you know if it's a regular harness ("sled dog style") or something like a "sense-ation" no-pull harness? I think a harness or martingale collar would be fine if you're worried about him slipping out - and as I'm sure you know by now it's ultimately the training, not the tools that will make him stop pulling
post #14 of 16
I love my martingale collars! My faves are made by Lupine. OP - like the PP said, your puppy is just that, a puppy. 3-5 mins of loose lead outside is fine at her age. Bostons can be a bit crazy for a while though! When I am teaching a dog to gait on a loose lead, I do it with a treat they can't resist in my hand! I think though that if you try that with her, you'll hurt yourself! I would work on her recall outside for now until you know that you can get and hold her undivided attention. Have fun!!!
post #15 of 16
You might have to try several different things, depending on what you want to acheive.

My dog walks GREAT on a prong collar for our "relaxed" walks, there is slight tension on the leash but no pulling is allowed, she can sniff or whatever. I really love prongs, I feel like I have a great connection to the dog and we usually communicate very well, but not always ---
When I wanted her to walk beside me, she did NOT understand what I was asking for. I bought her an "Easy Walk" harness and it was like a lightbulb went off! She walked great the first day in it because she understood what I was asking her to do. After that she understood better what I was asking for and would walk at my side on a prong collar if I asked her to.
You have to make the dog understand what you are wanting him to do, BEFORE you correct him for doing it wrong, and it might take more time and effort, or more than one tool before he understands.
post #16 of 16
One way that we get our dog to walk at our side is to hold a treat down in our hand while we're walking. She'll sniff and lick and nibble the treat while she's walking at your side. At first, do it all the time. Then, taper off to every once in awhile, but keep your hand in the same position. Now, we just occasionally carry a chunk of carrot or cheese for her when we walk, but she stays right by us.

It might help to at least get one lesson from a trainer if you can. We learned a lot about our own body language, and what it was telling our dog, as well. Small things like flicking your wrist, leaning in, things that we never would have noticed really made a difference when we corrected them.
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