Questions about time out ...

[babydanielsmom]

I took my ds the other day to his 18 month well baby visit ( he's almost 20 months... yeah I know we were a little late on the visit) and his ped said that now is the time to start using time out !!! Now IMO I think that 20 months is way too young to do time out. The ped said to pick out 3 things that are considered no no's (like throwing food) and these are the things to start putting him in time out for. I just don't think that at 20 months Ds will even "get" the whole time out thing. We usually just redirect him ... it seems to be working fine. But maybe I'm wrong? At what age will / did you ( if you do time out / in) start?

Sorry this got so long.

[Rico'sAlice]

I don't intend/want to do time outs at all. I don't believe in the theory. Without knowing the term, I've done "time ins" since birth- basically all that is is removing your child from a situation that they are not dealing with well and staying with them in a quiet calm spot until they are ready to return to the group/activity. If I did an actual time out where DS was separated from me he would be totally freaked out and focused on the fact that I was being away from him and totally Not get the connection to the "problem behavior." I prefer to focus on modeling, discussing the more appropriate thing to do, reasons why, preventing difficult situations, etc.

However, even if I did believe in timeouts, I don't imagine starting until around 3yo. But it certainly depends on the child. I have an acquaintance who is big on timeout with her 3.5yo, and he has no idea what the point of it is. Definitely doesn't 'teach' him to not do xyz.

I would not be discussing discipline issues with my ped. [Unless there were specific behavior issues pointing to developmental delays or something.]

[Super Glue Mommy]

I am thankful my children's pediatricians never crossed the line into giving me advice on discipline ... slippery slope! We have great success with time in, which is great and can be used at any age.

When my children act out (hitting throwing things, etc) I will ask if they can calm down or if they need help. If thye ask for help or obviouly need it then I will sit down with them. I will help them calm down in whatever way they need. I stay available, whether its holding them in a wanted hug, sitting on the other side of the room, or leaving if they request - but with them knowing they can come get me or ask me to come back at any time (it's not punishment, its respect)

We do this because I feel its okay for a child to get help calming down. Perhaps th eover focus on calming one self down does a bit too much damage, as even adults cannot successfully do this at times but find themselves in bad situations when they also feel like they can't ask for help. So, my children have learned they are capable of caming on their own, but also that its GOOD to get help calming if they can't do it on their own.

Time in is a good time for reflection for us. After being there for them through those big emotions, I let them know it upsets me to see them hurt someone (such as one of their siblings) and offer some solutions for next time. (Teach how to be politely assertive, or how to ask for help without "tattling", and other ways they can problem solve on their own if they don't need help - but ultimately I want them to know if they can't calm themselves down then I am willing to help.) I trust they will always have a friend, parent, sibling, or family member available to them in their life willing to offer this same support.

anyway Ive rambled long enough. I sometimes model time outs when I need them too, meaning I take a self directed time out for myself if my emotions are running high. My daughter gives herself time outs sometimes too. We respect her desire to be alone, but let her know we are available and waiting and wanting to comfort her when she is ready.

Time Outs risk becoming punitive, even if only in the eyes of the child. It seems to be the "alternative" for spanking, but I feel its really just trading evils. For more info try reading Connection Parenting

[nerdymom]

I don't come from a GD background, but the people I have seen use it have not had much success. It seems like it almost required physical intimidation, if not outright hitting to keep a child in a time-out. The younger kids don't get it and the older ones simply get frustrated and angry. That's what I've seen.

[lindsayjean]

I don't understand how a ped has the qualifications to give discipline advice. Medical advice? Yes. But discipline? I doubt they cover that in med school. I totally do not believe in time outs, and even if I did... that is way too young for them to get it anyway.

[Shami]

Well, I may get flamed, but I have wanted to post this to get more perspective anyway. So here goes. DD, 18 mths, has been pinching me for a long time, maybe since she turned 15 mths old. I posted here and tried some ideas, but it continued. She started pinching other children. The gentle hands reminder didn't work. I would say gentle hands then she would pat me nicely and immediately pinch me.
Anyway, I got the pack n play out and every time she pinched me, I tapped (as in pointing out to her that her use of that hand is what I can't tolerate) her hand and said OW, no pinch and put her in her pack n play. I stayed there with her but did not look at her for 1 or 2 minutes. It didn't seem to upset her to be in there. She sometimes protested, sometimes didn't. Then I got her out and said with a sad face, pinching hurts mama. No pinching mama. I did all of this without any anger. I was calm through out this process. If anything I showed her a very sad, hurt face.
Within a week she went from about 15 pinches/day to 1 or 2 pinches.

It was after she grabbed another baby's cheek and left nail scratches on her little face that I started this. I cannot let her hurt me or anyone else. I don't feel good about this method, but I felt at a loss for what to do. Also, I lost my temper when she did a ten finger pinch squeeze under my arm and would not let go. It scared me that I could lose it so badly with her. I knew I had to do something, or else...I don't want to even think about it.

So, the bottom line for me is anything violent which hurts others required time away from the person being hurt. To me, it wasn't a time out. It was a logical consequence for her hurting me. You hurt me, you can't be near me. I hope this translates in her little brain so that she won't let others hurt her.

For all other issues, I use playful parenting, distraction, redirection, positive words, etc.
Ok...let me have it!

[ann_of_loxley]

I would never use 'time - out's'.
I have used what some people call 'time - in's' - or what I just call 'calm down time'...which for us is an agreed upon (never forced) sit down together relax and cuddle and calm down time - rather than a 'punishment'. (with perhaps a moment to reflect and talk about things together)
I do not use punishments at all. I would rather work with my DS than do something to him to get him to 'behave' appropriatley. I want my DS to do the right thing for the right reason. If he is behaving because or something 'not nice' I might do to him (punishment of some kind - such as 'time outs') - then thats not doing the right thing for the right reason... and what exactly can me giving him punishments do for our connection/relationship? (not much!)
Now - of course...such discipline tactics are tempting. If they work at all (and I use the term 'work' very loosely here...) - it can give immediate 'obedience' from your child. In some cases, I can see how this is very temping - we all want a smooth and easy ride right? But I think its always important to look at the long term effects (I think its also important to look at how 'time-outs' are enforced...they don't tend to be smooth easy rides and if they do work as smoothly for your child, I certainly think a much more gentle approach to correcting an unwanted behaviour is going to be a much better option for you with a much better long term outcome). As I said - I want my son to do the right thing for the right reason... So, if without using punishments (or its flip side - rewards: Getting my child to 'behave' to gain something for himself such as a special treat - again, not doing the right thing for the right reason but doing the 'right' thing for selfish reasons) - my child can indeed do the right thing...then he can (and does) also do the right thing when I am not there (he doesn't have to worry about me doing something to him when I am there just as much as when I am not there).

Here are some good links on time outs and why not to use them. (and a few other things ) hehe

The Case Against Time Out

The Poisoned Carrot

Why 'time outs' are ineffective

Reasons to stop saying 'good job'

[momasana]

What is the main difference between "time-out" and "time-in"? Is it the presence of the parent/caregiver during the break?

Lately when DS (21 mo) gets wound up and starts throwing or hitting, I say we need to chill-out, and we'll sit on the couch or against the wall until he's settled and can be succesfully redirected. This doesn't happen often but every now and then we have to do it. But I always sit with him, rub his back, talk in a softer voice to help him settle.

So is this a time-out? Or a time-in? Is it bad to pull him out of a situation and have him just sit down for a bit?

[momasana]

Oh, and I totally don't think your ped should be giving parenting advice like that. Especially if you did not ask for advice or help.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Being available to the child. There are no time limits, its just an opportunity to help your child calm down and teach them to calm down without forcing them to learn to calm down. Being present shows you love them no matter what feelings they have, that you won't abandon them, that you wont banish them, that you love them unconditionally (which we all do, but this is just another way to help our child KNOW that) The articles ann posted are wonderful

I have 3 kids (I had 3 in under 3 years - they are 11 months, 2.5 and 3.5 now), and I find time in doesn't take too much time at all, and my older two tend to join in and help the other child as well.. it's really has encouraged compassion and kindness in all of us.

My daughter often gives herself a time out when she needs one, but I don't enforce them. My oldest has sensory issues and becomes overstimulated, so he needs to calm down sometimes, but I always go with him - he should not be "punished" more because of his special needs. My love for him is not conditional on his ability not to become overstimulated (or conditional on anything for that matter) but especially not something out of his control like that! I will respect his need to be alone to calm down if that is what he needs, but traditional time outs (key word being traditional) don't sit right with me. Much like spanking, the child isn't learning what they did wrong. And if you talk to them after they likely aren't open to hearing what you have to say - they may seem remorseful to avoid more punishment, but inside their head they are dwelling on other things. It takes them longer to learn this way. If you talk BEFORE the time out, well then thats time in as long as you don't abandon them afterward, so you might as well just use time in at that point imo.


For the issue of hurting we usually use some key phrases like this:

"I need our home to be safe for everyone"

"It hurts me to see you hurting others"

"You must have really been hurting to hit your brother. I know you wouldn't hurt him unless you were hurting too." (hear them out about whats hurting them) "what can we do next time you are hurting, instead of hurting someone else?" (or offer suggestions if they have no ideas) "Next time you can let mommy know that you want space and the baby is crawling too close for comfort" or "maybe next time you can pick up the toy and move it to the table where the baby can't reach." etc

"it's okay to be angry. I can't allow you to hurt anyone though."

etc

[bzmum]

If you don't agree with what your ped says, just don't do it. I'm sure they thought it would be a helpful suggestion for those parents who do use time-outs. I do...since my son was about 18 months, but similar method to Shami, to address hurting behaviour. Now, I have a three year old who regularly sits in time-out (minute for each year of age) because he gets over stimulated. Time away from the situation helps him regroup and join back in. I don't believe in giving him attention for inappropriate behaviour and save it up for positive interaction. Plus, with 2 children, I couldn't imagine doing the time-in method...just not practical while juggling him, a new baby, making meals, etc.

Good luck finding what works best for your family.

[kiwiva]

Well first I'd find a new doc who didn't give me advice about non-medical issues, but that's just me!

I don't use time out and I remember thinking when DD was around that age (and reading threads about people starting time out) that it seemed completely ridiculous to use that with DD. It would have made no sense at all and been a complete waste of my time.

We were away last week with friends with an almost 3 yo who would not stay in his seat in a restaurant (after being allowed to do it the night before-another issue), so they put him in the high chair in time out. They told him he was in time out and kept forcing him back in the chair and ignoring him. The result was a screaming crying child, and pissed off parents. There was no learning that he needed to stay in his seat. He needed to be consoled when it was over. It was absolutely ridiculous. My DH later said to me how clear it was to him that time out was pointless in this situation .

Seems like your pedi is coming from a POV that you need to establish yourself as the authority and start punishing to make a point. As long as redirecting is working, go with that. It does stop working so well. Discipline should be about teaching your child not punishing him to make a point and establish yourself as the alpha dog. You are right he won't get it at that age.

Whenever I've seen time out used, it's been pouting miserable children who keep trying to get out of it until they give up in defeat and angry parents, whose anger is not alleviated by the time-out. With older kids I've often seen the pouting, and arguing continue after the time out. It just doesn't seem productive to me. I like Alfie Kohn's ideas on this stuff if you want to read about it.

We don't do time out (DD is 2.5) and I don't plan to. If she is wigging we do time-in, tho I don't really call it that. We remove ourselves from the activity or area or whatever until she is ready to act appropriately. We talk, we do whatever is needed to calm down, no punishment in it. Time-out for a lot of people is isolating the child for an arbitrary amount of time to make them feel bad to get the point that what they are doing is wrong. I'm not saying they can't be used in a kinder way as a couple of the pps did for pinching or other hurting by isolating the child until they can control themselves, just that the mainstream time-out can be quite punitive and shaming.

[Daphneduck]

I agree that if you don't want to follow his advice, don't. You're the mom and you get to make those decisions. I'm with the pp, in that I find it very strange that he is offering you disciplinary advice to begin with. If redirection is working for you, I'd stick with it.

So, the bottom line for me is anything violent which hurts others required time away from the person being hurt. To me, it wasn't a time out. It was a logical consequence for her hurting me. You hurt me, you can't be near me.

I agree with this. We don't do time outs, but DD will go to her room, or any other part of the house that she chooses, to be alone when she is hitting, pinching, scratching, etc... She usually chooses to go to her room so that she can play with her toys. If she wants to be held or comforted instead of being alone, I give her that, but she usually wants to be alone. If she does just want to be held, she does not have to go to her room afterward. It is not a punishment, but a natural consequence. She can come out when she is ready to interact peacefully. I don't want to hurt her feelings or shame her, but I want her to know that the consequence of hurting another person, or an animal, is that the person or pet that you hurt, will not want to stay there with you. I also hope that she will learn that it is okay to distance herself from someone who is hurting her. This works for us now, whether it will this time next year, we'll see. I am not opposed to time outs in theory, I've seen situations where they really seemed to help, but that being said, I hope to avoid them.

[MusicianDad]

We don't do time outs, but I'm not completely against them. I do feel that at 20 months a child is not cognitively mature enough to understand the concept of time out or the reasoning behind it. To be honest, I'm an adult and I can't see a natural connect between most negative behaviours and a time out, so I don't expect a child to be able to see how the two are connected.

[Ironica]

If we did think punitive discipline (which the conventional "time out" is, no matter what people call it) was appropriate, I wouldn't consider it until the child is old enough to have a time sense. Until they reach that point developmentally, it doesn't matter a whole lot whether you say "one minute" or "five minutes," it's FOREVER to them.

I agree that this is NOT the pediatrician's place, and unless he's gone to extra effort to seek out training outside his specialty, he likely has no experience or training with it.

[DevaMajka]

I've never done time out (and don't plan to), and my ds is 4.5yo.
I could maybe possibly see doing time outs after age 3 if there's some hurtful behavior (hitting, biting, etc), and one is at a loss for how else to handle it. Even then, I think there ARE better ways to deal with it, but I wouldn't be incredibly opposed to it if it were one of those "I have no other idea what to do, and this hitting NEEDS to stop."

I think your ped's advice is really strange (to pick 3 things to give time outs for). Just...wierd. lol

I really like using redirection as discipline at that age- Ime, it taught ds a lot about self control, self redirection, and that I cared about what he wanted to do, and would help him find a socially acceptable way to express his impulses.

One thing I'd say about it though- Imo it's important to make a distinction between- "redirecting" to something related, rather than "distracting" to something unrelated.
Iow, if dc is, say, banging a block on the window, redirecting would be giving them a cloth to wipe the window, sitting with them and building with the blocks, or finding something that is acceptable to bang on.
Distracting would be saying "oh look there's a plane!" in hopes that they will forget about banging.

[2cutiekitties]

Originally Posted by Rico'sAlice

I don't intend/want to do time outs at all. I don't believe in the theory. Without knowing the term, I've done "time ins" since birth- basically all that is is removing your child from a situation that they are not dealing with well and staying with them in a quiet calm spot until they are ready to return to the group/activity. If I did an actual time out where DS was separated from me he would be totally freaked out and focused on the fact that I was being away from him and totally Not get the connection to the "problem behavior." I prefer to focus on modeling, discussing the more appropriate thing to do, reasons why, preventing difficult situations, etc.

However, even if I did believe in timeouts, I don't imagine starting until around 3yo. But it certainly depends on the child. I have an acquaintance who is big on timeout with her 3.5yo, and he has no idea what the point of it is. Definitely doesn't 'teach' him to not do xyz.

I would not be discussing discipline issues with my ped. [Unless there were specific behavior issues pointing to developmental delays or something.]

very well said!

[SunShineSally]

I do not nor ever did time outs I tried to a few times and Ds literally FLIPPED his lid I only did it because he hurt one of the cats. I always try to do the time ins and I have had such good results with it he is so well behaved in school and home well he had one problem he did pinch a boy because the boy was being mean to his favorite girl in his class (he is going to marry her but she doesn't know because it is a suprise) I guess he told her she had ugly hair and kept teaseing her and didn't stop when she started to cry and he pinched him and he stopped. I really did not say much to him about it I know I should have but I was proud when he said boys should never ever be mean to a girl! What is a mama to say? I just said we keep our hands to ourselves but good job on being a gentleman and standing up for a girl!

My point after my ramble is he is in pre k and has had the least problems in the class with listening and behaving appropreately! I also do not like the idea of Ds thinking when he is naughty that mommy will not be there to help him learn how to behave the way that I feel he should. As a parent we are supposed to teach them not push them away from us! But we are not perfect but the point is to not mess them up to much

[LynnS6]

20 months is too young for time outs. This is still the age for distraction, redirection and removal. But cognitively, they cannot link the time out with the crime, so to speak. That ability develops about 3-4.

When our kids were toddlers, we did remove them to their cribs for hitting, but really, it wasn't so much a time out for them as a safe place to keep them while I cooled down. I have a hot temper, and that was the safest place for them.

We make limited use of time outs for our kids, but we didn't start until 3. I try to frame them as 'time ins', but really our kids react to them as 'time outs' so that's what I call them. We don't enforce a time limit. We do say that you can come down when you've gotten yourself under control.

Ds will actually take himself off to his room (complete with door slam) when he's mad. Dd usually prefers to throw herself on the living room floor and 'share' her misery with us all.

The other thing I would say is that you have to know your child -- my kids sometimes do not calm down well with me there. Being out of my presence helps them calm down. For ds, being talked to or even touched when he was angry made it impossible for him to calm down. For dd, she keeps trying to explain/justify whatever it was and can't let it go if I'm there. A break from me lets her think about something else.

So, I caution against always saying that leaving your child = abandonment. Sometimes my kids NEED a break from me. We always reconnect afterward, but my staying there would prolong the agony.

[babydanielsmom]

Thanks for all of the replies. I also thought that it was weird that a ped would just give out disipline advice. He went from asking how ds was eating to informing me that now that he is almost 20 months that I need to start putting him in time out...big jump in the conversation. I was just curious to see what other moms were doing at this age