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post #21 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
The other thing I would say is that you have to know your child -- my kids sometimes do not calm down well with me there. Being out of my presence helps them calm down. For ds, being talked to or even touched when he was angry made it impossible for him to calm down. For dd, she keeps trying to explain/justify whatever it was and can't let it go if I'm there. A break from me lets her think about something else.

So, I caution against always saying that leaving your child = abandonment. Sometimes my kids NEED a break from me. We always reconnect afterward, but my staying there would prolong the agony.
I am sorry if that is how I came across I sometime do not explain as I go off and ramble

My Ds feels that way if I personally try and seperate him from me. He will at times seperate himself and that is wonderful that at such a young age (5) he knows when he needs to do this. I also ask him before hand if he wants "me to be there and help him gather himself" or if he "wants to gather himself alone"
post #22 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevaMajka View Post
I've never done time out (and don't plan to), and my ds is 4.5yo.
I could maybe possibly see doing time outs after age 3 if there's some hurtful behavior (hitting, biting, etc), and one is at a loss for how else to handle it. Even then, I think there ARE better ways to deal with it, but I wouldn't be incredibly opposed to it if it were one of those "I have no other idea what to do, and this hitting NEEDS to stop."
What are the better ways to deal with it (hurting others)? Hope I am not getting us off topic. I think the op wants to know what others are doing beside time outs. I know that with older toddlers you can do some talking and explaining how hurting people is not allowed. You can really show them how the other person feels. Do you consider removing a child from the other hurt child as a time out?
post #23 of 34
i think it depends on HOW you are leaving your child. Are you leaving your child with a "i dont want to be around you, I'll come get you when I want to be around you" message being received by the child. (message being received sometimes different then message you are trying to send)

or

are you leaving your child with the messae being received "I am respecting your need for space, but I am available to you. Whenever you are ready you can come to me, even if you are still upset"

one sends the message of banishment, one sends the message of respect. When my child choose to be alone to calm down I respect that.



We use time in for hitting.
post #24 of 34
Wow. Did you ask your ped about discipline ideas or did s/he just bring it up?

Even among the time-out proponents, I don't think they start using them until 2 years of age. DD is 22 months old and I can't imagine putting her on time out.

We only use Time-Outs (with the older boys) for one things.... hurting somebody intentionally (biting, kicking, scratching, etc.) For other discipline issues, we do other things but save Time-outs for the most serious offense.

I'm trying to think of something DD does...let see... oh, she went through a phase where she liked to slam all of the doors. So we would just go, "Wow Sara that was a really loud noise. (Then whispering).. Let's see how quietly you can close the door..." Seemed to work.
post #25 of 34
My dd is six and I don't use time-out. I didn't ever cross them out as an option, they just never seemed appropriate for use with her because redirection and discussion work for us. Around the time she was four I started having her sit down and take a break when she was out of control or just seemed to need one, but it was something that she controlled and uses still to have space from me when she needs it. Even when she was four, it was more of a suggestion than a demand, except for on a few occassions when both of us needed, and took, a break. I think of time-out as a last resort option that people like teacher's may need to use, but not one that I need to use at home.
post #26 of 34
First off if I take my child to our doctor its to get an antibotic for an ear infection or have stiches looked at or to ask if its normal to gain 4 inches in 2 months ect. Parenting advice is not part of our needed medical visits.
As for time/outs in.. yes we do them I think DD was around 3.5-4 before they really became parts of our life. By 5 we were basically really moved on.

Deanna
post #27 of 34
We reserve time outs for things that hurt others, pinching, hitting, etc. Throwing food is normal toddler behavior that can be redirected (we always knew that meant that they were done eating).
post #28 of 34
I think the real question is why your Dr. was giving you parenting advice? MAybe to make up for the lack of real reason to be at the Dr.'s office in the first place?
post #29 of 34
Well I may also get flamed, but I am totally fine with that. Firstly I did start doing a cooling off time for DD around 19-20 months, because I was being bitten, hit, scratched all the time. My DD is a very powerful, forceful little girl. Now at almost 3 we do full on "time-out" because it is the gentlest way for our family to deal with her emotional outbursts(and ours from her behavior). Personally I find it gives both of us a time to cool down, she has to reflect upon her inappropriate behavior(ie, biting, scratching, pinching, throwing things etc). We found that it does in fact work and works well for us, some kids can handle redirection and other styles of discipline, but for us other things have just not worked.

I don't believe a ped should be giving parenting/disciple advice, but I can understand the premise, discipline needs to start around that age, at least in my experience. Not full on, but yes in a mild form. If we had not started then I honestly can say that DD would be full on out of control tantrumming all the time(and we would completely frazzled messes), like I said she is a very forceful personality. She is known as a firecracker by most people who know her, which is great. I'm not the mellowest person myself and DH isn't either, so it is no surprise we have a child like her. She is what many would called "spirited" which I personally hate, she is however on the upper end of energy, and loaded with personality and with that has also come an ultra defiant attitude, which for us is easily handled with the occasional time out.
post #30 of 34
Here's an article I like, by Jan Hunt: Looking Past the Behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shami View Post
What are the better ways to deal with it (hurting others)? Hope I am not getting us off topic. I think the op wants to know what others are doing beside time outs. I know that with older toddlers you can do some talking and explaining how hurting people is not allowed. You can really show them how the other person feels. Do you consider removing a child from the other hurt child as a time out?
Here's something I wrote a long while back about dealing with a todder hitting:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I tell my ds that "I don't like to be hit." The I *redirect in a way that honors the impulse* IE if he hits because he's frustrated, I tell him other ways to express his frustration. My ds likes to make a "mad face" but you could also try jumping, clapping hands, making a sign, roar like a lion, etc. If ds hits me because he's overexcited, I find other fun exciting ways for us to interact. I'll say "I don't like to be hit. If you want to play together, we can play pat-a-cake" (or whatever physical activity seems to fit at the moment)
If he wants me to read to him, sometimes he'll put the book right up in my face, and sometimes hits me with it. For that, I tell him "If you want me to read to you, you can put the book in my hand, and ask me to read it."

The *impulse* is legitimate. He's angry, he's frustrated, he wants something, etc. It's just the way its expressed that is unacceptable. So, it makes the most sense to teach acceptable ways to express those impulses. The impulse won't go away just because you say "don't hit" kwim?
And redirecting in a way that honors the impulse makes it easier for ds to stop hitting. It *helps* him to do the right (or socially acceptable) thing, and in the end that's what good discipline is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For ds now, my response to hitting is much more stern "Do NOT hit." then talk to him about what else he could have done (ie, if he hit a friend, I talk to them both about solving problems, or coming to an adult if they can't find a solution, etc). Talking about how hitting hurts is secondary to the other information, for me.
Sometimes, depending on the situation, I say nothing and give him a look that says "oh no, you did NOT just do that." That's enough to make him run over and give me a hug and say sorry. After that, I talk about better alternatives, etc.

I should add that hitting is really rare for him, and when he does hit its much to light to actually hurt anyone. Hitting is a HUGE deal to me (even light hitting), and I'm pretty strict about it. So I don't know what I would do if he DID hit more than he does. That's why I said that I can understand how people would use time outs for hitting (and other behaviors that hurt others), even though I think that time outs don't *really* teach what we want to teach. They don't really address the behavior and socially acceptable alternatives.
But sometimes, especially in the case of a child hitting a sibling or other kids, the hitting *needs* to stop, even if it's not teaching as much about the situation as we'd like, so I can certainly understand the use of time outs in those cases.

I have never removed ds from the person he hit, because I think that takes away an important part of the teaching process. It takes them away from a situation that they still (obviously) have a lot to learn about. If he were taken away, he leaves the situation as "the kid who hit" without having a chance to do better.
But, no, I wouldn't necessarily consider removing a child from a person he hit to be the same as a time out.


In Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, they list these "steps" as ways to deal with younger children who bite (which also applies to other hurtful behavior):

Set a limit- ie, stop the bite. Set a verbal and physical limit.
Honor the impulse- make an educated guess about WHY the child is biting. (are you trying to say hi? do you want Brooke to move?)
Give information- I say "I don't like to be hit/bitten" etc
Redirect in a way that honors the impulse- if he's hitting/biting because he wants Brooke to move, explain other ways to ask her to move.
Don't stigmatize the child- don't label them as a "biter" it can reinforce the behavior and be a self fullfilling prophesy.
post #31 of 34
We have started some simple, modified time-outs as our kids approach two, so 22 months, maybe. But probably only in specific cases, like open defiance when redirection doesn't seem to be working.

BUT... what started out as an "occasional" tool has become the default at our house, and I'm not happy about it. My oldest is proving to me that this is an ineffective tool and is not really teaching what we want him to learn.... So, I really want to revamp everything. Dh and I need to talk about it and figure out what direction we want to take discipline-wise.

So... I don't think there is ever a "need" to start using time outs, and your ped needs to be introduced to some alternative discipline ideas.
post #32 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevaMajka View Post
Here's an article I like, by Jan Hunt: Looking Past the Behavior



Here's something I wrote a long while back about dealing with a todder hitting:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I tell my ds that "I don't like to be hit." The I *redirect in a way that honors the impulse* IE if he hits because he's frustrated, I tell him other ways to express his frustration. My ds likes to make a "mad face" but you could also try jumping, clapping hands, making a sign, roar like a lion, etc. If ds hits me because he's overexcited, I find other fun exciting ways for us to interact. I'll say "I don't like to be hit. If you want to play together, we can play pat-a-cake" (or whatever physical activity seems to fit at the moment)
If he wants me to read to him, sometimes he'll put the book right up in my face, and sometimes hits me with it. For that, I tell him "If you want me to read to you, you can put the book in my hand, and ask me to read it."

The *impulse* is legitimate. He's angry, he's frustrated, he wants something, etc. It's just the way its expressed that is unacceptable. So, it makes the most sense to teach acceptable ways to express those impulses. The impulse won't go away just because you say "don't hit" kwim?
And redirecting in a way that honors the impulse makes it easier for ds to stop hitting. It *helps* him to do the right (or socially acceptable) thing, and in the end that's what good discipline is.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For ds now, my response to hitting is much more stern "Do NOT hit." then talk to him about what else he could have done (ie, if he hit a friend, I talk to them both about solving problems, or coming to an adult if they can't find a solution, etc). Talking about how hitting hurts is secondary to the other information, for me.
Sometimes, depending on the situation, I say nothing and give him a look that says "oh no, you did NOT just do that." That's enough to make him run over and give me a hug and say sorry. After that, I talk about better alternatives, etc.

I should add that hitting is really rare for him, and when he does hit its much to light to actually hurt anyone. Hitting is a HUGE deal to me (even light hitting), and I'm pretty strict about it. So I don't know what I would do if he DID hit more than he does. That's why I said that I can understand how people would use time outs for hitting (and other behaviors that hurt others), even though I think that time outs don't *really* teach what we want to teach. They don't really address the behavior and socially acceptable alternatives.
But sometimes, especially in the case of a child hitting a sibling or other kids, the hitting *needs* to stop, even if it's not teaching as much about the situation as we'd like, so I can certainly understand the use of time outs in those cases.

I have never removed ds from the person he hit, because I think that takes away an important part of the teaching process. It takes them away from a situation that they still (obviously) have a lot to learn about. If he were taken away, he leaves the situation as "the kid who hit" without having a chance to do better.
But, no, I wouldn't necessarily consider removing a child from a person he hit to be the same as a time out.


In Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, they list these "steps" as ways to deal with younger children who bite (which also applies to other hurtful behavior):

Set a limit- ie, stop the bite. Set a verbal and physical limit.
Honor the impulse- make an educated guess about WHY the child is biting. (are you trying to say hi? do you want Brooke to move?)
Give information- I say "I don't like to be hit/bitten" etc
Redirect in a way that honors the impulse- if he's hitting/biting because he wants Brooke to move, explain other ways to ask her to move.
Don't stigmatize the child- don't label them as a "biter" it can reinforce the behavior and be a self fullfilling prophesy.



Thank you so much for your detailed post. The whole thing helped me wrap my brain around this issue of "to do time outs or not to do time outs" ---that is the question! I am so on board with everything you said...except...I have this fear that if I give her attention after a pinch/hit/bite then she will do it more because she is getting attention from me. I definitely believe in teaching them better ways to respond, but in the heat of the moment, I think I have to remove her right away and teach later. But I can also see your point.

Moving away from rewards/punishments takes such a complete change in my thinking. I have read UP and enjoyed the philosophy of it. However, it's a very slow process. Anyway, I bolded the parts that have helped me the most.
post #33 of 34
removing the child is still giving them attention. It's just negative attention. Children will take negative attention when they can't get productive attention.
post #34 of 34
I have used time outs for a long time (from the various method descriptions some may describe what i do as a time in or a chill out or a relaxation exercise or sme other thing, but *I* call them time outs because they are about removing DD from the situation in which the problem occurred until we have figured out how to help her deal with her emotions). I'm not sure if i used them at 20months but i'm positive i used them at 24.

For us they work. DD is very like i was. She gets overwhelmed by her emotions and finds it tough to experience/express them so that's what we work on during time-out.

She is also very tactile (a sensory processing thing, i also have it, pretty much all my family are on the autism spectrum to some degree) and has trouble with appropriate touch (i.e. she goes stroke, stroke, pat, pat, SLAP! on your face, and it's not anger or frustration it's a need to feel more which i still have and have learned ways to deal with).

For these situations we have a time out. It's our way of pressing "pause" on life and dealing with a moment she is finding problematic.
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