Why do people let their OB's "play god"?? - Page 5

[minkajane]

I've noticed from a lot of the people in my hometown (smalltown WV) that people don't even consider doing things other than "the way we do things." You (usually) graduate high school, marry your high school sweetheart, get pregnant, go to the hospital, get your epidural, do whatever the doctor tells you (because doctors have been to college and know what they're talking about), have the baby, give it a bottle, send it off to be circumcised, then raise it on McDonald's, soda, and Hamburger Helper.

*Disclaimer* This is not an insult to people from WV, people who trust their doctors, bottle-feeders, etc. This has been my personal experience with everyone I know from high school. It has been the same pattern every. single. time. People do what they know. Babies get bottles, sleep in cribs, and cry themselves to sleep. Spanking is the only way to discipline a kid. Soda is what you drink. McDonald's is a special night out. Foreskins don't exist. Etc. It just never crosses their mind that their even IS another way, much less that it might be better. It may have something to do with the isolation of the state, but I've seen it other places than my hometown. When questioned as to their reasons why they do something (like bottle-feeding) they get this confused look on their faces and say "That's what everybody I know does" or "That's how I was raised" or "What else would I do?" They don't even realize that other ways are possible.

[rainashine]

I think too it's hard to change your ideas when to do so means acknowledging that your previous beliefs and/or the way your parents believe or raised you is wrong.

It took me a long time to get my head around not spanking because I was raised in a home that not only spanked but believed that to not spank was to go against the way God wanted children raised. I am still a Christian and, thankfully, have found a different way. But in doing that, I've had to admit that the way my parents did things is not right.

I think birth is similar. It's a total counter cultur paradigm shift for women to go from having trusted the medical professsion their whole life to discovering that doctors don't always (or even mostly) know best in the case of birth. Frankly, 9 months is not enough time to accomplish this kind of shift in thinking and then most women don't even get an inkling that there might be a problem until they are actually in labor. Then it's just simply easier to bury their head in the sand because there isn't a thing they can do about it then and the alternative is to be horrified, traumatized, and openly miserable. Unfortunatley, I think many of those women are still all of those things but can't opening acknowledge why and are diagnosed ppd by the same doctors that caused the problems.

[felix23]

I searched really hard to find a high risk OB that I trust completely. That doesn't mean that I don't do research on my own, but I feel since he has spent years and years dealing with high risk pregnancies, he knows a little more about it then I do. During my last pregnancy when I had people IRL question why I was having weekly NST, I always said that it was because my dr recommended it. So it may appear that I'm not informed and I mindlessly do what my dr said, but for me, a key part of my reasearch was finding a good OB that I trusted. I don't think he is a god and I'm sure he makes mistakes, but I believe that when he made recommendations, he was looking out for my and my baby's best interest. If I didn't trust him to give good advice, I would go find a new OB.

[farmers_wife]

Originally Posted by minkajane

It has been the same pattern every. single. time. People do what they know. Babies get bottles, sleep in cribs, and cry themselves to sleep. Spanking is the only way to discipline a kid. Soda is what you drink. McDonald's is a special night out. Foreskins don't exist. Etc. It just never crosses their mind that their even IS another way, much less that it might be better. It may have something to do with the isolation of the state, but I've seen it other places than my hometown. When questioned as to their reasons why they do something (like bottle-feeding) they get this confused look on their faces and say "That's what everybody I know does" or "That's how I was raised" or "What else would I do?" They don't even realize that other ways are possible.

THIS IS WHAT I AM DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am 32 weeks pregnant with triplets and my Ob is on board for a vaginal delivery (so far anyway!!!!) and everyone in my town is balking at me and calling me a hazard to their health, saying I am just putting myself first instead of their needs because I am not automatically going for a section. I have tried for years to get a LLL going here and no one wants to, I nurse in public, cloth diaper and tandemed nursed my toddlers (11 months apart) and I get called literally in public "hippie mom" "weirdo" "sicko" the names go on and on and it is worse now because I am having three more. I had a lady the other day say "Why are you even walking around if you are that close to delivery?" HUH? How the hell does she know how close I am to delivering those babies? : (Sorry for the rant, must be the pregnancy hormones!) Yes though, my Ob and I have had this conversation before and he totally gets it, his wife is JUST like me so we can understand each other completely. Just sucks living in a backassward part of the world :

[farmers_wife]

Originally Posted by felix23

I searched really hard to find a high risk OB that I trust completely. That doesn't mean that I don't do research on my own, but I feel since he has spent years and years dealing with high risk pregnancies, he knows a little more about it then I do. During my last pregnancy when I had people IRL question why I was having weekly NST, I always said that it was because my dr recommended it. So it may appear that I'm not informed and I mindlessly do what my dr said, but for me, a key part of my reasearch was finding a good OB that I trusted. I don't think he is a god and I'm sure he makes mistakes, but I believe that when he made recommendations, he was looking out for my and my baby's best interest. If I didn't trust him to give good advice, I would go find a new OB.

Yes to this. Exactly how I feel about my Ob!

[fawnanddoe]

When it comes down to it I just don't understand why women don't ask questions more. Really. I mean, yes, I know that they are the experts and what not, but why wouldn't you question anything? Why would you let them just do "whatever" because they recommend it or think it's best?
Just because they have a degree and some initials after their name does not mean that they necessarily know what is best for YOU, sure, they probably have a bunch of suggestions and one or more of those might be right for you personally, but why not ask?

[crunchybelle]

I feel kinda bad reading a lot of these posts. As someone who went to an ob with my first pregnancy, was induced, had the epi and of course the section. At the time I just DIDN'T KNOW I HAD OPTIONS. Apparently it sounds stupid to a lot of people here, but that is the culture we live in. I think most first time moms don't even realize that there is something better, and why would they? Everyone they know goes to an ob and a hospital to birth.
I know better now, but if I had had a decent vaginal birth at the hospital, I may have never questioned it.

Also, obs don't present things as options. Its just "we're going to do this because blah blah blah." And as a not very assertive person, (back then), it is next to impossible to say no. Not to mention they use the "your baby could die if you don't do this" crap. Its very hard to say no to that when you are in that vulnerable position and have never been taught to know better.

So anyway, my point is just don't be too hard on women. It is more the culture and society that we live in than individual choices. Now i just feel really bad for those women going in to get induced for no reason.

[saintmom]

I wonder if a lot of it stems from the "hospital is safer" mindset.How many T.V. commercials have we all seen that say "doctors recommend" There really is some subtle programming at work from the time we're small.Women are supposed to be nice, get along.I think that it's even a check box on elementary report cards.

I never liked birthing in hospitals. it wasn't terrible, it just seemed like the worst time to be around strangers.I felt like I was supposed to be nice, compliant, friendly......during labor? Be serious.HB beats out hospital birth IMHO every time.

I tell my daughter to give birth the way she wants to, raise hell,question, question and question some more.They both couch all their responses in the language of fear; "what if something is wrong?" I keep telling them why should anything be wrong? That's what gets me, the fear.It's the most wonderful time in your life, the greatest journey, why approach it in fear waiting for big daddy doctor to make it all right? It blows my mind to hear it.

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by crunchybelle

I feel kinda bad reading a lot of these posts. As someone who went to an ob with my first pregnancy, was induced, had the epi and of course the section. At the time I just DIDN'T KNOW I HAD OPTIONS. Apparently it sounds stupid to a lot of people here, but that is the culture we live in. I think most first time moms don't even realize that there is something better, and why would they? Everyone they know goes to an ob and a hospital to birth.
I know better now, but if I had had a decent vaginal birth at the hospital, I may have never questioned it.

Also, obs don't present things as options. Its just "we're going to do this because blah blah blah." And as a not very assertive person, (back then), it is next to impossible to say no. Not to mention they use the "your baby could die if you don't do this" crap. Its very hard to say no to that when you are in that vulnerable position and have never been taught to know better.

So anyway, my point is just don't be too hard on women. It is more the culture and society that we live in than individual choices. Now i just feel really bad for those women going in to get induced for no reason.

As a first time mom myself who originally started out using an OB a friend suggested I don't really know how I so completely changed my perspective within the scope of a few weeks. I do know that nobody told me that things could be done a different way, so I completely understand the "I had no idea" concept...

That doesn't excuse women from doing their own digging though. At some point, I think during an appointment with my OB I was trying to question her about the point of a blood test she wanted me to do and she was getting annoyed with me for even asking questions. This is when something in my brain clicked and I realized it felt wrong. Why was she annoyed? Why shouldn't I ask questions.

I went to the book store and did the best thing I could have ever done. I looked at all the birthing books, not just what to expect etc. I picked up Ina's guide to childbirth and it completely changed me and the way I view my body, pregnancy and birth. Even though I didn't know a thing in the beginning I realized it was important to be able to understand what medical professionals around me were talking about...Don't we do research when we buy a new car? Or any major purchase? Why should it be any different with birth, just because a doctor tells us? I think not...

I don't entirely blame the woman but I guess I will always wonder why a woman wouldn't want to know as much as she can about how her body is going to perform this amazing feat!

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by rainashine

...the alternative is to be horrified, traumatized, and openly miserable. Unfortunatley, I think many of those women are still all of those things but can't opening acknowledge why and are diagnosed ppd by the same doctors that caused the problems.

:
There was interesting presentation about maternal mental health at the ICAN conference. It was over an hour long, but the most interesting thing I took away from it is that people who are researching post-partum maternal mental health (and actually talking to moms, not just working from a checklist) are reaching the conclusion that PPD is massively over-diagnosed...and PTSD is massively under-diagnosed. PPD is generally considered to be the most significant mental health challenge faced by new moms, but evidence is starting to suggest that many, many cases of "PPD" are actually PTSD...and they're not being treated properly. And, really - how hard is it going to be to get obstetrical professionals to even listen to this, when the evidence is also starting to mount that the way women are treated in labour (or even before labour, if they're pushed into inductions or surgery they don't want) is the single biggest contributing factor?

Originally Posted by saintmom

I wonder if a lot of it stems from the "hospital is safer" mindset.How many T.V. commercials have we all seen that say "doctors recommend" There really is some subtle programming at work from the time we're small.

Yes. I've noticed this since ds1 started school (even before). It's absolutely necessary to take your baby in for all their well-baby checkups. People act like I'm endangering my baby's health by refusing to have a nurse come to my house to check on him (weighing, basically - which is going to happen at the doctor's office in a couple days, anyway). DS1's school once sent a notice home, talking about how the school nurse had taught them how to wash their hands. Every freaking medication in the store has the disclaimer about "consult your physician" (liability reasons, obviously). We're steadily hammered with the idea that, when it comes to our health, we should do anything without checking with a doctor first. I have no doubt that this carries over into prenatal care, especially with the "pregnancy as pathology" mindset that exists all over our culture.


farmers_wife, this

I had a lady the other day say "Why are you even walking around if you are that close to delivery?" HUH? How the hell does she know how close I am to delivering those babies?

...kind of makes me laugh, but not quite. I flew down to Atlanta a few weeks ago, at 7 months pregnant. I must have had 10 people ask me if I was "allowed" to fly. They were all strangers, and nice enough about it, but almost all of them were very reassured when they realized I was only 7 months. If you don't know how far along I am, why the heck are you expressing all this shock that I'm on a plane??

I never liked birthing in hospitals. it wasn't terrible, it just seemed like the worst time to be around strangers.I felt like I was supposed to be nice, compliant, friendly......during labor? Be serious.HB beats out hospital birth IMHO every time.

I've never given birth at home, and I never will now. But, I'll remember my hours of labouring at home, with both ds1 and Aaron, in a very positive way for the rest of my life. It's definitely a much better experience. I'd honestly trade 15 minutes of labour in the hospital for 24 hours of labour at home.

[fawnanddoe]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24

..Even though I didn't know a thing in the beginning I realized it was important to be able to understand what medical professionals around me were talking about...Don't we do research when we buy a new car? Or any major purchase? Why should it be any different with birth, just because a doctor tells us? I think not...

I don't entirely blame the woman but I guess I will always wonder why a woman wouldn't want to know as much as she can about how her body is going to perform this amazing feat!

This. Exactly.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24

I don't entirely blame the woman but I guess I will always wonder why a woman wouldn't want to know as much as she can about how her body is going to perform this amazing feat!

Okay. I don't really have an issue with where I was with my first, because I wouldn't have done anything differently, looking back. A midwife would have been great...if I'd known they existed, and if they were legal at the time. Since I didn't have the internet, I didn't know. I was seeing a GP, not an OB. (I think this is more common in Canada than the US - your system seems much more specialist driven than ours is, from what I can tell online.)

As for the not wanting to know as much as she can...I did. But, how do you know that you don't know something? We have a free publication here in BC, called "Baby's Best Chance". I had it pretty much memorized. It covered what nutrients I needed, all kinds of info on labour, labour management techniques (mostly breathing and different positions), breastfeeding FAQs and tips, etc. etc. etc. It covered cesareans and the reasons they might be necessary. So - as a first time mom (whose baby was in a great vertex position for the last several weeks of my pregnancy, anyway), what would have tipped me off that it's really not necessary to deliver a breech baby by cesarean? My baby wasn't breech until labour, anyway - but if it had been, how would I have known that surgery wasn't necessary? All the information I had said that it was. All the people I knew agreed that cesarean was necessary for breech.

People can want to know things, and try to find things out...and still have no idea how much they don't know. You picked up Ina May's Guide...what if you hadn't? What if it hadn't been in the store? What if you lived somewhere that you couldn't get to the bookstore? What if your library didn't have it, and you couldn't afford to buy books (believe me, the money for books wasn't in my budget back then)?

Sure - a lot of women "just" trust their doctors (for a lot of reasons). A lot of women are already terrified of labour, from having heard their own female relatives and their endless "I almost died, but the doctor saved me" or even "you almost died, but the doctor did an episiotomy just in time" - or whatever - stories their whole lives. But, many women think they're well enough informed, even when they're not. How can you possibly want to find out something, when you think you already know it?

(Mind you, all the research in the world on when a cesarean is required, or how to birth a breech baby, wouldn't have helped me...because they did it even after I said "no", anyway.)

[Ldavis24]

Storm Bride you did all your research though! You may not have been able to find the information that would have helped you most but not being familiar with Canada's model of care I wouldn't know if the information you were given or had access to is the norm up there?

My point was that I feel like here in the US many women don't do a lot more than read their copy of what to expect once and assume the doctor will handle the rest.

Had I not found Ina May's book I would have continued doing my online research partly because I really just wanted to know what terms meant and if a procedure was going to be needed what it entailed etc.

The woman who suggested my original OB before I switched to my MW told me her birth story and at the time it didn't seem out of the norm but now it makes me sad...
She went to the hospital, labor "wasn't progressing", she got started on pit, (already had the IV), needed the epi because of the pit. pushed on her back, had an episiotomy and her baby was born...She looked at me like I had 2 heads when I said I didn't know what way I was going to be pushing because I had the opportunity to do it any way I wanted and I wanted to prevent a tear! She said that the episotomy prevents the tear!:

It really isn't about just trusting your doctor with me. Like I said before I just find it amazing that some women don't seem interested in how their body is able to do this. I mean mechanically, not how to labor and breast feed and all that but literally how your body grows/pushes out a baby. If you understand that part it makes it so much easier to understand how different ways to labor can affect you and your baby!

[rainashine]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

:
There was interesting presentation about maternal mental health at the ICAN conference. It was over an hour long, but the most interesting thing I took away from it is that people who are researching post-partum maternal mental health (and actually talking to moms, not just working from a checklist) are reaching the conclusion that PPD is massively over-diagnosed...and PTSD is massively under-diagnosed. PPD is generally considered to be the most significant mental health challenge faced by new moms, but evidence is starting to suggest that many, many cases of "PPD" are actually PTSD...and they're not being treated properly. And, really - how hard is it going to be to get obstetrical professionals to even listen to this, when the evidence is also starting to mount that the way women are treated in labour (or even before labour, if they're pushed into inductions or surgery they don't want) is the single biggest contributing factor?

This is what I was hoping the Birth Survey would be able to accomplish...really allowing women's experiences to be seen. So far I've been disappointed. Even when I took the survey I didn't feel it asked quite the right questions. And now that I've seen the results...I still feel that way. I was really excited to see the results and it just seems to be one more thing to show that the majority of women were delighted with their medicalized birth and those of us that weren't are the crazy minority.

As for the rest of the thread, I'm still frustrated. In so many ways I see this compared to date rape. Girl moves to a new town , goes on a date, gets raped. Everyone says some version of, 'well, you shoulda known better." I doubt any woman on this board would blame a girl in that situation. We all can sit here and place blame on moms for not doing research every day but we're doing that from the perspective of knowledge. Other people in that community may have known that that guy she went out with had a bad reputation but she didn't and there was no way for her to protect herself.

[monkaha]

Is the Birth Survey being presented on more mainstream parenting boards too? I see it mentioned all the time here; what about everywhere else? (I tend to hide here and a local AP board-other parenting boards just frustrate me) Like the PP, there's only a couple of responses for the OB that delivered my son, and I know they're a very busy group.

[AutumnAir]

I tend to think that at least a portion of this issue is to do with the modern 'blame culture'. You know, where bad things don't just happen any more - now they have to be *somebody's* fault. The culture where people will sue someone else because they slipped in their driveway. What would have been considered an unfortunate accident now involves blame and liability.

OBs tend to invite this by pretty much 'promising' a good outcome, especially when they 'pull the dead baby card' to bully mothers into doing what's convenient for them. By saying something like "Your baby will die if you don't do what I tell you to do" you are implying that by doing what you are told there is a guaranteed positive outcome.

And nobody wants to be blamed for a bad outcome. OBs at least have huge malpractice insurance and emotional detachment. Mothers-to-be feel that by going to the hospital they absolve themselves of all responsibility if something goes wrong, as there's a convenient OB to blame, who's already asked for the blame by promising them a good outcome if they just listen to him/her.

Mothers who chose less 'conventional' births are made to feel in no uncertain terms that if anything goes wrong *they* will be blamed for it. When I told family and friends of my homebirth plans I was asked a number of times "But what if something goes wrong? How will you live with yourself?" First, this makes it clear that there is blame to be apportioned if something does go wrong, and secondly that it's clearly my fault if it does.

Hospital birthing mamas are never (or at least very very rarely) asked how they will live with themselves if something goes wrong in the hospital - which is *at least* as likely as something going wrong at home (and taking into account morbidity as well as mortality it's actually more likely that something bad will happen in the hospital).

Now, that's not to say that I don't think we should all take responsibility for our birthing choices, but there is a *huge* difference between responsibility and blame. No mother should have to even contemplate not only something awful happening to their baby but also being blamed for it by many/most/all of the people they know. And that is exactly what women who question the medical model are facing.

[Comtessa]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

A lot of women are already terrified of labour, from having heard their own female relatives and their endless "I almost died, but the doctor saved me" or even "you almost died, but the doctor did an episiotomy just in time" - or whatever - stories their whole lives. But, many women think they're well enough informed, even when they're not. How can you possibly want to find out something, when you think you already know it?

This. Absolutely. I think lots of women don't feel the need to do any research besides what all of their family and friends say, and unfortunately it so often looks and sounds exactly like this. I had the good fortune of reading Ina May many years ago (I was lucky enough to work in a bookstore as a teenager), so I knew there had to be more to the story than what everyone else said.

For months after we announced my pregnancy, my mother repeated the details of my birth (in increasingly hysterical tones) in an attempt to convince me not to have a home birth. Unfortunately, the story worked in exactly the opposite way she intended:

"They waited as LONG AS THEY COULD for labor to start after my water broke with you [one day].
They HAD to start Pitocin because you were clearly at risk [though there were no signs of infection].
The Pit didn't work because you were floating too high and wouldn't descend [because I wasn't ready to be born yet, obviously... not to mention the fact that she was forced to labor on her back once she had the Pit].
They waited as LONG AS THEY COULD to let me start laboring [a few hours].
Then they HAD to do a C-section because you were IN DISTRESS [not a surprise, after all that Pitocin, laboring on her back, etc.]."

It just makes me shake my head in exasperation. Of course birth doesn't always turn out the way we'd hope... but giving the doctors carte blanche to intervene in birth is not the solution. Mom's moral of the story is, "doctors saved my life and yours, and it is irresponsible of you to refuse their help by planning a home birth." My moral of the same story, on the other hand, is, "Look how awful birth can be once you're put on the 'active medical management' track."

[GoldmanBaby09]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

(Mind you, all the research in the world on when a cesarean is required, or how to birth a breech baby, wouldn't have helped me...because they did it even after I said "no", anyway.)

This is a HUGE part of what is wrong with our medically managed system in the first place!! Not only do they not treat you as an individual, they don't even treat you as human by doing things to you without your consent or your knowledge. Not only did you not consent, you clearly said no and they did it anyway. I see that as a human rights violation, at least. No one deserves to have someone violate their bodies and their wishes, regardless of who they are. And Storm Bride, unfortunately, you are not the only woman that kind of thing has happened to.

We can sit here and argue all day about whether to blame moms or not, but the fact of the matter is, every woman deserves the right to have her baby, her way. For some that might be the hospital, if you feel that is best. But for others, the only way to have the birth that they want, and know that their bodies and their babies are going to be respected, is to go another route.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AutumnAir

I tend to think that at least a portion of this issue is to do with the modern 'blame culture'. You know, where bad things don't just happen any more - now they have to be *somebody's* fault. The culture where people will sue someone else because they slipped in their driveway. What would have been considered an unfortunate accident now involves blame and liability.

This is very true. Mind you, I look for someone to blame with Aaron, too - but I end up at me...

OBs tend to invite this by pretty much 'promising' a good outcome, especially when they 'pull the dead baby card' to bully mothers into doing what's convenient for them. By saying something like "Your baby will die if you don't do what I tell you to do" you are implying that by doing what you are told there is a guaranteed positive outcome.

So true. What bothers me is how often I see OBs acting as though people just blame them for no reason. They don't even seem to realize that they set themselves up for it by making promises (okay - not clear promises - only implied, but they're still there). They present their opinions as facts, and the risk/benefit analysis tends to boil down to "there is no risk if I want you to do this, and if I don't, the risk is somewhere close to 100%".

And nobody wants to be blamed for a bad outcome. OBs at least have huge malpractice insurance and emotional detachment. Mothers-to-be feel that by going to the hospital they absolve themselves of all responsibility if something goes wrong, as there's a convenient OB to blame, who's already asked for the blame by promising them a good outcome if they just listen to him/her.

Sad, but true.

Mothers who chose less 'conventional' births are made to feel in no uncertain terms that if anything goes wrong *they* will be blamed for it. When I told family and friends of my homebirth plans I was asked a number of times "But what if something goes wrong? How will you live with yourself?" First, this makes it clear that there is blame to be apportioned if something does go wrong, and secondly that it's clearly my fault if it does.

Yes. I have no doubt that if Aaron had died during a scheduled c-section (or if baby-under-construction does, which keeps me awake at night sometimes), I'd have had 100% universal sympathy. As it was, there are people in my life who clearly blamed me for his death. (In fairness, there are good reasons for that. )

Hospital birthing mamas are never (or at least very very rarely) asked how they will live with themselves if something goes wrong in the hospital - which is *at least* as likely as something going wrong at home (and taking into account morbidity as well as mortality it's actually more likely that something bad will happen in the hospital).

No - and they're also not generally blamed for it if something does go wrong, except maybe if the general public finds out they didn't do what the doctor advised at some point...

No mother should have to even contemplate not only something awful happening to their baby but also being blamed for it by many/most/all of the people they know. And that is exactly what women who question the medical model are facing.

Yeah....
:

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by GoldmanBaby09

This is a HUGE part of what is wrong with our medically managed system in the first place!! Not only do they not treat you as an individual, they don't even treat you as human by doing things to you without your consent or your knowledge. Not only did you not consent, you clearly said no and they did it anyway. I see that as a human rights violation, at least. No one deserves to have someone violate their bodies and their wishes, regardless of who they are. And Storm Bride, unfortunately, you are not the only woman that kind of thing has happened to.

I know I'm not! I've heard stories from women who were screaming "I do not consent" and/or trying to climb off the gurney...and were still cut. It's horrifying.

As for knowledge? Every one of my sets of records contains references to meds I was given without my knowledge - every one. At my anesthesia consultation last week, I was told that it's not usual policy to discuss "every single thing we do".