New here and crying...I have no idea what to do, punishment and natural consequences - Page 2

[NinaBruja]

have you tried posting on wishuponahero.com for money for the trip or a guitar?

i am an older sister who had a little sister who would steal and break my things...so i can kind of see the pp's wish for punishment...

but i dont believe punishment is beneficial.
i can not see taking the money from dd2's trip. the natural consequence of her breaking the guitar is the stress in your house right now. you dont have to do anything for natural consequences to be. they just are.

sure dd2 did something wrong. but by being so willfully wrathful dd1 is also doing wrong. personally i wouldnt feel right appeasing her at the cost to your youngest.

maybe im just contrary but man i feel horrible for your poor dd2. shes got strangers on the internet calling for her punishment

[tinuviel_k]

I agree: your older daughter's guitar should be replaced, and if the sister who broke it on purpose needs to skip camp to have that happen...well, that is the natural consequence. Younger DD can go to camp next year, and she will learn a valuable lesson about the treatment of other people's possessions.

I also don't buy that she didn't know what was going to happen when she smashed the guitar on the ground. And the fact that she left it there on the ground for her sister to find rather than fess up isn't too positive, either.

[NinaBruja]

thats a logical consequence... not a natural consequence

[claddaghmom]

I disagree w/ getting her a cheaper guitar. She should have an equal replacement and an apology from dd2. In turn, dd1 should then stop being so mad she wants to "smack her" and say she forgives her.

And then you should keep an eye on the dynamics b/c that was the lamest story (dd2's excuse) I have ever heard. She must think she can get away w/ a lot to not even bother w/ a better story.

If you as her parent believe the camp is important as an actual growing up thing, then search around for assistance or get DD babysitting/doing odd jobs.
Summer is coming up and mowing jobs can bring in a lot of cash.

[AngelBee]

No flames here.

[flowers]

Well, I don't agree that there are any "shoulds", but I think you are handling this very compassionately.

I do see value in using the camp money and I know dd2 will be so disappointed and that might be one of those life lessons where learns to be extremely careful around others items.

My little brother used, abused and lost all of our stuff. My mom most always defended him and then if we insisted it be replaced she did it. I don't think she did him any favors.

Like I said I don't think there is a right answer, just the life lessons of navigating around your relationships.

[mommabear207]

i know dd1 feels it unfair to have anything less than a brand new one of the same brand however the fact is that its broken and a new of same type just can't be pulled out of thin air. the nice thing to do if you break someone's things is to replace it and be sorry. the nice thing to do if our stuff is broken is to forgive and not demand the breaker "pay for it". i don't think its fair to dd2 however to say well the only $ i have is the money for your trip which happens to be just the right amount so she gets it. what if the money was for something else. what if it was a vaulable object of your own? take the money out of the equation and breaking the guitar doesn't equal missing trip, especially since this camping thing is a one time event. even if dd1 did get a brand new one i doubt she wuld forgive dd2. i'm still of the opionion that dd1 gets a cheaper one until dd2 is able to earn $ for a new one, in a reasonable amount of time but it might take a while.

[Ellp]

I have a younger sister too, and like the others, my stuff did occasionally get broken, stolen etc. My parents did defend my sister and I really can't ever remember getting compensated for my loss.

That said, ask your DD2 how important the camping trip is to her. Would she see it as important as you or Dd#1, or would it just be another fun activity that would be forgotten by the next fun activity? Would Dd#2 consent for "her" camping money to be given to Dd#1 as compensation? (Without any pressure applied).

If the camping trip is as important as say Dd#1's experience was, then I say no, don't take it way from DD#2. Its easier to replace a guitar than it is to replace a once in a lifetime experience.

[kcstar]

Actions have consequences. I agree with the major boundary issues here. I'm the oldest of six, and an amateur musician. I know what it is to have my things broken, and I know what it is to love music. And I have siblings who, to this day, want to spit on my dreams.

All of which factor into my vote for DD2 has to forfeit the trip. DD1 deserves the real deal, not a cheap variation.

As for the sorry / forgiveness aspect... those take time. DD1 will need to forgive, eventually, but for the last two weeks her life's dreams have been crushed. It's going to take time for that to heal.

[ebbybaby]

Just so you know $200 is A LOT for a guitar, have you not checked pawn shops for used acoustics? They go for somewhere around $50, and to have it tuned by someone it should be a basic charge of $25 dollars, I'd be shopping on the buy/sells, my dad plays guitar and we all have played a bit here and there, I see what guitars are going for at new stores, somewhere around 3-600 for really nice ones that are mid level grade. Just something to think about. Also coming from a family of 3 girls, I'm the middle sister, my lil sister 3 years younger DESTROYED EVERYTHING OF MINE.... it was out of spite, jealousy, revenge usually, so this might have happened because of that, its something between the 2 of them that they need to work out themselves, I don't think its fair to take away a camping trip either, but there has to be compromise on both their parts. I come from a family where we didn't have much growing up either, so I feel you and I see how this is stressful, I think its only going to get harder as they are teenagers so just accept them doing stupid things to each other, my mom eventually just started saying "Dont get mad, get even"... and I did. I dont think my post helped you much but just sharing something, on this mothers day where I'm just zoning out and drinking coffee. Much love dear, there will be good and bad times, especially with girls.

[Scottishduffy]

It is a very difficult situation and either way someone will feel bad. The question is who will be the one to feel bad? The victim (older D) or the offender (younger DD)? Personally I think the Victim should be compensated with the new guitar.

Older DD worked very hard for that guitar. She set a goal and worked for months to meet it. It wasn't just a guitar, it was an acocmplishment of a large goal that she had set for herself. Through no fault of her own her sister detsroyes the guitar. Regardless of the intentions of younger sister, the guitar is smashed. To top it off younger sister did take responsibility to smashing the guitar and instead left it smashed for the sibling to find. It is perfectly acceptable for DD1 to be angry right now. She is dealing with what she views as a devastating loss.

While it will be hard to take the camp money, i believe it needs to be done. Have a long chat with DD2 about how important that guitar was, and how much it meant to DD1. Explain that now the DD2's camp money must be used to replace the guitar, because it is the right thing to do. Have DD2 go herself to get the new guitar using the camp money. You and DD2 can talk about how sometimes doing the right thing is difficult. After a new guitar has been obtained DD1 will most likely be more receptive to forgiveness once she feels DD2 is genuinely remorseful.

I imagine it would hurt DD1 beyond words if DD2 went to camp and had a great time, while she sat at home still angry and hurting. DD1 may feel as if you are favoring DD2, trying not to make her feel bad for her actions, while ignoring the pain and sadness she is feeling. DD1 feels like a victim and would most likely feel even more hurt if she felt that the person who hurt her was somehow 'rewarded' after the act. Not that this is the case, but it may be how DD1 percieves things. This could build up a lot of resentment between the girls. DD1 should not suffer because of DD2's choices, DD2 should be accountable and deal with the difficult choices and emotions that will go along with restitution. When we do wrong, we should attempt to make things right.

My hubby had a younger brother who always detsroyed expensive items her got. He tried his best to protect his items as his parents would blame DH if any of his items were in any way accessible to his brother (not really yhat much younger). DH always felt angry that younger Bro never had responsibility for breaking the objects, but DH would get blamed if younger bro broke something. He felt he consistently lost out of things while little bro received little to ramifications. DH had to be hurt and upset, while little bro still had all his toys and on occassion was glad at depriving DH of a toy that he had wanted. DH still feels resentment toward his litto bro and toward his Mom for favoring the younger brother.

[GirlBoyGirlBoy]

Wow, this is a toughy... I think I have to agree with Scottishduffy when she points out that DD1 worked hard and earned the money herself for the guitar and I don't agree that she should then have to accept a lesser instrument than the one she saved for and earned.

Is there a chance that she has cooled off a little and would be able to discuss the fact that DD2 would have to forego the camping trip to buy the new guitar right now? Would she be willing to wait awhile for DD2 to earn the money? As hard as it would be, I think she deserves to have her guitar over DD2's camping trip because it doesn't honestly sound to me like DD2 did this by accident--but you know your kid and I don't so I will butt out of that part!

[Mama2Bug]

I think DD2's camp money should be used to buy her sister a new guitar. I also don't really buy her "I was just imitating what I saw on tv" story. I think most kids are smarter than that. She may have gotten carried away by an impulse, but that doesn't mean she is excused from the consequences.

I know that the OP sees the camp experience as an important fun experience for DD2, but missing it won't do her any actual harm. She will do other fun things and make other nice memories. Breaking her sister's most prized possession needs to have tougher consequences than just a feeling bad about it. DD1 put hours of sacrifice, planning and effort into saving for the guitar. No way is it fair for her to lose it due to her sister's disrespect, while DD2 gets to go on a fun trip.

[ell]

A thought: Would it be a worthwhile exercise to say to DD1 that the money is there and she can have it if she wants, but it means DD2 won't be going to camp and that will be her punishment - or, there will be another form of punishment such as sacrifice of something else and that money will go to replacement of the guitar, but later - then let DD1 decide? Not guilt trip her or anything, that's not the point, but give her the power to choose her sister's punishment and how soon she gets the guitar. Or do you think that would put too much pressure on her? Thoughts, ladies?

The more I think about it, the more it seems incredibly obvious that DD2 was just incredibly jealous of this thing her sister had and acted out, and that's not cool at all. She needs to face big consequences for it.

[mommabear207]

Originally Posted by ell

A thought: Would it be a worthwhile exercise to say to DD1 that the money is there and she can have it if she wants, but it means DD2 won't be going to camp and that will be her punishment - or, there will be another form of punishment such as sacrifice of something else and that money will go to replacement of the guitar, but later - then let DD1 decide? Not guilt trip her or anything, that's not the point, but give her the power to choose her sister's punishment and how soon she gets the guitar. Or do you think that would put too much pressure on her? Thoughts, ladies?

The more I think about it, the more it seems incredibly obvious that DD2 was just incredibly jealous of this thing her sister had and acted out, and that's not cool at all. She needs to face big consequences for it.

nothing against your post in particular ell you just verbalize it well.....

it seems to me that a lot of people, especially those who want to camp $ to be forfeited, are calling for punishment. i don't know about op but to me punishment isn't GD.

[kcstar]

Originally Posted by mommabear207

nothing against your post in particular ell you just verbalize it well.....

it seems to me that a lot of people, especially those who want to camp $ to be forfeited, are calling for punishment. i don't know about op but to me punishment isn't GD.

An honest question, that I hope might help clarify the issue and the options:

How does one distinguish between "punishment" and "natural consequences" in this situation?

I can certainly see the perception of time pressure as a problem in making that distinction. If the family can find a way to clear a time to deal with the issue, that would help with creativity and considering all the options.

The financial pressure, though, is not going away soon.

[Dandelionkid]

For all those calling for dd#2 punishment- it sounds like there are a lot of personal experiences that are influencing thoughts on this. If DD2 has a history of breaking, destroying or being really jealous of dd1's stuff then Im sure OP would have mentioned something. I agree with another poster- natural consequence is the tension and anger in the house. She doesn't need to be punished!!! Of course, the right course of action may be skipping the trip to come up with the money but not because she "deserves" it. I feel just as badly for dd2 as for dd1. Hard hard situation

[phathui5]

sure dd2 did something wrong. but by being so willfully wrathful dd1 is also doing wrong. personally i wouldnt feel right appeasing her at the cost to your youngest.

I disagree.

I don't think that wanting your guitar replaced means that you're being "wrathful" and that replacing a destroyed item means she's being "appeased at the cost of the youngest." The word here is restitution. Dd2 owes dd1 a guitar, the same one she bought. The only question is how she's going to make that happen.

[sunshine1793]

"The word here is restitution. Dd2 owes dd1 a guitar, the same one she bought. The only question is how she's going to make that happen."

I really like this summary. If it were my situation, I think I would sit down with each girl separately and make that statement. I would ask for their opinions and feedback. How important is the trip to dd2? How soon does dd1 need the guitar replaced? What are dd2's feelings on giving up the trip to get dd1 the guitar back asap? How does dd1 feel about waiting until August while dd2 works to earn the money to replace it? How compassionate is each girl towards the other one?

I think if it would work between the girls, I would have have the camp money go to the guitar asap, have dd2 present it and apologize, and have dd1 forgive her. I would want the issue settled immediately: I would not want to let resentments brew over the summer. If dd1 was willing to be patient and wait, fine.

Either way, this is tough. Like pp's said though, life is hard. Some mistakes cost you big time - I think that in itself is a valuable lesson to learn early. Its not so much about punishment, just a prompt righting of wrongs. If you do something wrong, it is best to right the situation as quickly as possible.

I would be thrilled though, if dd1 would be gracious and willing to let dd2 go to the camping trip, and let dd2 work over the summer. I think grace would be a valuable lesson to speak to dd1 about, and I would encourage her to consider it.

What are your values?

[lanamommyphd07]

Teaching a child the "right thing to do":
mom: you owe your sister $225. That's a lot of money. How will you come up with this money?
DD2: from you?
mom: I could lend you the money to replace your sister's guitar. You will have to do a lot of work to replace the money.

plain and simple, the money is yours. granted, you've got it earmarked, but all in all it's yours. at this juncture, DD2 has a big lesson to learn. You will be doing her a huge favor by helping her learn that as opposed to going to camp. Camp is camp. learning fairness with a sister, supporting both children, honoring DD1s hard work, these things are never planned, ya? This was no accidental breakage here, this was purposeful. so the restitution must be hard work. The act of destruction must be associated with a big PITA for the destroyer, or you'll have a monster on your hands. It's not punishment--no more than having to pay for the neighbor's window after accidentally breaking it. It's life--it's the way things are, and it's fair.
So, the kid owes $225. that's the way it is. That's a lot of allowances. That's a lot of missed outings with friends due to having no spending money. But be sure to keep her posted on the progress of how much is left to owe. It may take her over a year, but that would be fair too.
I'm also thinking: insurance? also ebay and craigslist for the exact same model. DD1 worked her buns off for a year to get her prize, a just reward. Now it's DD2's turn to do some work. Some families I know have taken a child to pawn some of their things to raise the money to replace something.....videos, ps2s, etc.