New here and crying...I have no idea what to do, punishment and natural consequences - Page 5

[academama]

I'm going to say, I don't agree that your youngest is lying, hiding, or whatever about what happened. It's possible, certainly, but she could also be telling the truth. You know her well and if you feel that she probably didn't mean it, she probably didn't. 10, in some cases, is young enough not to think forward to a consequence.

Nonetheless, her response to the situation seems to me to call for some thought. Your oldest, in many ways, seems to be handling this very well. If she is not yelling at her sister, being mean to her, or otherwise acting out, that's pretty good for 14! She worked very hard to pay for that guitar. I think about how I would feel if someone who should know better wrecked my sewing machine, or something like that. Well, I'd be mad too.

The thing is that this is a learning opportunity for both girls. I tend to think that you should replace the guitar. But, whatever you decide to do, I think you ought to sit down with DD2 and talk about how much this hurt her big sister. Point out to her that DD1 is missing something from her life now that was important to her, and that it hurts even more to miss something when you know that it was taken away for no reason, by someone you love. And I would explain to her that sometimes we have to pay for our mistakes even if they were indeed mistakes.

I would also sit down with DD1 and tell her that you are proud of her for restraining her anger at her sister. Then I would ask her if she has any ideas for helping sort out the situation. She is 14; she is old enough to help you think about this! I would also tell her that the final decision is going to have to be yours...but I would absolutely stress the fact that you KNOW how upset she is, that you think she has the right to be that upset, and that you know how hard she worked to earn the money for her guitar. I think it goes a long way to show that you understand her position.

You might have already done these things, I don't know. But I think this is a good opportunity to instill enough awareness in DD2 of what she's done that she WILL be more aware of other people's belongings in the future and that she might feel more responsibility for her actions. Sometimes things like remorse don't come naturally; they're the result of frank and open discussion about consequences and feelings.

I certainly don't think that punishment is the answer. But by sending DD2 to camp, you're essentially inflicting a punishment on DD1--who didn't do anything to deserve it. And I think the resentment you might get in return would be really hard to take. In your position, I would replace the guitar.

(and then I might look for some other fun thing--lesser, but fun--that your DD2 could do over the summer--a free class somewhere, or something like that. You could even plan a camping weekend for the three of you at a local park or something like that, if you have the energy!)

[krystyn33]

Originally Posted by gretelmom

What service are you doing a child by believing a totally unbelievable lie?

How can we think we know these children and their needs better than their own mother? Yeesh, she's overwrought enough as it is over this terribly difficult situation. It is too easy to read our own experiences and people we know into the details of the situation that the OP presented, but nothing she could write here can convey the full reality of of what happened and who her children are, so as readers we're definitely not in the best place to judge.

OP, my heart breaks for the challenge you face in trying to make this right and do best. Best wishes to you.

[heartmama]

I thought about this tread all day.

Here is a concern that hasn't been raised:

Really think about this carefully.

There is a balance in every family. The balance is felt more than seen, and lasting 'hurts' happen when a decision is made without everyone invested, committed, and on board with a solution to an interpersonal 'wrong'.

Somehow dd2 must find a way to connect in a heart-to-heart way to this problem. The best solution is one that begins with a true heartfelt sense of empathy and compassion from dd2 to her older sister.

That is the first and MOST IMPORTANT step you can take. What happens next will be easier to determine once this is done.

Now, if dd2 cannot do this, if she puts on a front of indifference or callousness or defensiveness about what she did, that tells me there is a simmering problem precluding her smashing the guitar--there is already a problem in the relationship and *nothing* you do in terms of punishment is likely to address this problem at all.

If you move ahead and make a decision without dd2 having opened up her heart and connected emotionally to helping restore the guitar to her sister, I would really fear the long term impact of taking away the camp money for the guitar. Not for dd2 but for dd1.

I was a very sensitive teenager. If my sister smashed my guitar, and I was paid back in this way, and then had to watch my sister go through her own sadness and grief at missing camp, it would definitely have "tainted" my love of music and enjoyment of the guitar. Even if I had not said so up front, or said so after the fact, the return of the guitar at this price would have been a bitter 'victory'. Fairness and justice know nothing about these feelings of the heart--if we love someone we will suffer when they suffer.

It isn't that using camp funds is wrong. It is that the only way this decision could be done and bring the girls closer together would be if dd2 herself, under her own heart feelings, wanted to give up the camp money to her sister. *This is a sacrifice that must come from dd2 in order for both girls to grow closer from this exchange--otherwise there is a real risk of further division, resentment, and simmering jealousy*.

[Theoretica]

There are SO MANY good replies here, I think I tried quoting and got to 18 before I said fugghetaboutit LOLOL

So, I've read through the replies and here's my take on it.

1. DD1 worked hard to EARN this guitar. It's a treasured item for many reasons, the earning aspect, the patience aspect, the music aspect etc.

2. DD2 is responsible for destroying it, and is therefore responsible for making restitution. Immediately, or as close to it as possible.

Personally, because of the extensive cost, it is a very logical progression of thought for you to help her pay for it in order for it to be replaced asap. Then the 'debt' is to you and not DD1, which should help things considerably. Why don't you replace the guitar with the funds you have and she 'works it off' by doing extra chores around the house, maybe 5 extra a week, to 'pay down' the debt to you. Maybe she has things she could sell of hers to replace the money to you. The point is she needs to pay it back.

It's not an issue of 'she broke it now she can't go to camp'. THAT is punitive. However, she broke it, she has no means to repay it, so household funds are repaying it and thus her ability to afford camp is now in question...THAT is a natural consequence. What I hear from you is that if DD2 were somehow able to come up with the money for camp (selling some things of hers, raising money, otherwise earning it) you'd be ok with her going because it's important to you too. At the same time, who owns this problem? DD2 broke the item, SHE owns the problem that now arises from the funds having to be redirected to replace something she destroyed.

OP, I really want to encourage you to ensure you are rewarding your oldest's drive and ambition to save, be patient for rewards, succeed etc. by replacing this item as soon as possible with the funds you have. It sounds like you are really handling her emotions of this situation so well, lots of kudos for that BTW. It's really healthy to not be demanding she like or get along with her sister right now. She has the right to be furious, and it's up to her how long that will last. It's ok for her younger sister to know how angry she is, and if she's so angry that she can't be in the same room then that too is a natural consequence of breaking someone's prized possession.

I do think it would be worth the discussion to sit DD2 down and say hon, we have to replace this guitar NOW. We will use this money I've saved for camp for you, but then we'll have a hard time taking care of that expense. Do you want to sell some toys etc. to see if you can get that money back before the deadline? Or do you have another idea on how you can go to camp?

What a frustrating situation...but please don't disempower your oldest by shrugging off her loss and allowing DD2 to 'get away with it'. I think that, in the long run, will be MUCH more damaging to the self esteem of your oldest and the irresponsible behavior of your youngest than missing camp.

HTH

[Astraia]

I've read through all the replies and this is a really tough decision.

In some ways, I think it comes down to personality. I was also a "poor" kid growing up in a family with 3 siblings, and there were some situations that were similar to this.

My brother would break things all.the.time and he really just has (even to this day) no impulse control, at all. He never ever meant these things maliciously.

I was the kid who would feel horrible whenever a punishment went through- so if I was your DD1, I would feel horrible, sickening guilt over my younger sister missing the camp she so desperately wanted.

If I was in the position where I would lose camp to replace the guitar, I'd agree to it instantly because I would feel bad and want to make amends, and wouldn't lose any sleep over the loss of my camp experience.

My youngest brother and my older sister, on the other hand, would feel righteous indignation if the guitar wasn't replaced and that house would be tense for a lonnnnng time. They would also see missing camp as a sign that they are unwanted, never get anything and my parents obviously loved the other kid better.

So - what are your DD's personalities? I think it plays a huge role in the decision making process. What would fix it, and what would make it worse, as far as personalities go.


Overall, though, I'd probably say DD2 should lose her camp experience

[heartmama]

I was the kid who would feel horrible whenever a punishment went through- so if I was your DD1, I would feel horrible, sickening guilt over my younger sister missing the camp she so desperately wanted.

Yep. This. My sister and I certainly fought but it would have 'spoiled it' for me if I was given a replacement guitar while she begged and cried and pleaded not to miss camp and then sat at home all that month sad and hurting. I mean, that would certainly put a huge crimp in my enjoyment of playing music, if not killed it entirely.

The more I think about this thread the more obvious it seems that the ONLY way you are going to avoid making the situation worse by using the camp money, is if your dd2 wholeheartedly understands and agrees this is fair and right and she wants to sacrifice this to pay back her sister. If she thinks in her heart this is fair she will handle her disappointment with a measure of grace....Because if she dosen't feel this way it is going to be a very miserable and tense household all.summer.long. and your dd1 may very well discover that getting back her guitar by her sister losing out on camp is like winning the battle but losing the war. Her satisfaction may be very short lived once the guitar is back in her hands and she has a miserable and sad sister on her hands for the the rest of the summer.

The crux of this whole situation is that your GIRLS must come to the right solution in their hearts and that will take trust. Your older dd should be able to extend that trust if your younger dd shows an open and willing heart to amend her mistake.

[Theoretica]

I guess I just don't agree that it's an issue of the younger DD 'agreeing' to use the money this way. It wasn't a mutual decision to break the guitar. It was her decision. I don't hear the OP saying the older DD is torn or distraught at the idea of the younger DD making amends. I hear the OP saying her oldest is extremely (and justifiably) hurt and angry about this. I think this could present a serious block in their relationship between teen and mama if her right to have immediate reparations isn't recognized and validated with immediate action. I also think the wrong idea is enforced if the money is available for an 'unrequired' expense and not made available for the oldest to use as a replacement guitar.

Now, FWIW, I think it's reasonable for the OP to let DD1 make the decision if the OP wants to involve her in the process. But, if DD1 doesn't have any negative feelings associated with the idea of using the funds to replace the guitar (or even if she does and still wants to do it that way) then so be it.

[heartmama]

I guess I just don't agree that it's an issue of the younger DD 'agreeing' to use the money this way. It wasn't a mutual decision to break the guitar.

But my point is that because dd1 didn't consent, her response was anger and resentment. Similarly, if dd2 misses camp without committing her heart to the fairness of this sacrifice, she will only harbor further anger and resentment.

If this were my family the most important result of this situation would be that 1) dd2 show in a tangible way that she cares about this loss and is ready and willing to make things right and get her sister another guitar, and 2) that dd1 accepts a sincere gesture of regret and concern from her sister and genuinely forgives her and co-operates in finding the best solution for restitution of the guitar. That may or may not involve dd2 missing camp--you won't know until step 1 and 2 occur.

I realize this involves more time and that time is limited in this situation--but it would be difficult for me as a parent to make a decision of this nature in the absence of active participation from all involved. It is not because of a lack of backbone or sense of fairness--it is because these are two big girls who are fast approaching a point in their lives when major changes will make it more and more difficult for them to connect in a meaningful way--they will be sisters for the rest of their lives, and learning how to connect and resolve this problem together is a perfect opportunity to get in touch with one another. I realize the mom cannot force either daughter to cooperate--but any decision in the absence of their participation is likely to engender more division and resentment.

[mama_mojo]

Originally Posted by heartmama

But my point is that because dd1 didn't consent, her response was anger and resentment. Similarly, if dd2 misses camp without committing her heart to the fairness of this sacrifice, she will only harbor further anger and resentment.


I realize this involves more time and that time is limited in this situation--but it would be difficult for me as a parent to make a decision of this nature in the absence of active participation from all involved. It is not because of a lack of backbone or sense of fairness--it is because these are two big girls who are fast approaching a point in their lives when major changes will make it more and more difficult for them to connect in a meaningful way--they will be sisters for the rest of their lives, and learning how to connect and resolve this problem together is a perfect opportunity to get in touch with one another. I realize the mom cannot force either daughter to cooperate--but any decision in the absence of their participation is likely to engender more division and resentment.

I am one who believes the money being reallocated is the most obvious and best choice. However, I totally agree with the above. I don't know how the OP could help this come about, but I do think it's the only genuine solution.

[Petronella]

I think the camp money should go towards the guitar. IMO, ten is plenty old enough to know what you're doing. I can't imagine DD smashing her sister's guitar at ten (uh, if she had a sister).

OP, any updates? Have you made your decision yet?

[EnviroBecca]

YOU ARE A GOOD MOM!!! You are trying so hard to do the right thing by everyone.

The tension isn't bothering DD2 at all, she admitted she likes always being able to watch what she wants on TV because DD1 isn't there. . . . DD2 just shrugs, says she didn't mean it and that she is sorry, but that she doesn't want to give up the camping trip.

My first response to her explanation of how she smashed the guitar would have been, "Oh, the TV made you do this. I cannot let you watch TV anymore." I would hold firm on that at least until the guitar was replaced or DD2 was well into a serious effort to earn the money for it. If necessary, I would move the TV into my room. DD2 can use the TV-free time to think about what she's done, rather than enjoy MORE TV now that she's gotten her sister out of the way!

The money you'd saved for camp is YOUR money, and it is up to you to decide how it should be spent; DD2 did nothing to earn it. The money DD1 spent on the guitar was HER money that she earned over many months of hard work. IMO, your deciding to spend your money on a guitar for DD1 rather than camp for DD2 is a reasonable consequence of DD2's extremely poor judgment.

[CrunchyMamaToBe]

Originally Posted by madelynlee7

I know I have to give the trip money to DD1, I just don't know how to break it to DD2. It's like no matter what I do one of my girls will get hurt

Originally Posted by Miasmamma

While DD2 will be hurt, she needs to understand that whether she meant it or not, there are consequences for touching and breaking her sister's things.

Yes. She will be hurt. But sometimes even adults do things that have upsetting consequences without meaning to and we still have to pay for them. I feel badly for both of your girls and I hope that you can get through this tough time without too much lasting damage.

You are doing great, mama.

[Theoretica]

Good post EnviroBecca

[E.V. Lowi]

Originally Posted by Theoretica

Good post EnviroBecca

: ITA!

[labdogs42]

I like the idea of a family meeting and discussing the ways DD2 can buy DD1 a new replacement guitar in the quickest manner possible. Some suggestions would be forgoing camp, selling some of her possessions to get the $$, doing odd jobs, etc. I think a time limit should be set for replacing the guitar. I also like the no tv idea, too. DD2 needs to make amends for what she did, accident or not (and it doesn't sound like much of an accident to me).

BTW, I'm an only child, so this has nothing to do with my past or current experiences!

[peainthepod]

I agree with EnviroBecca. It isn't fair that DD1 should have to make do with no guitar or an inferior acoustic version while DD2 goes to camp, consequence-free. I also don't agree that there needs to be any consensus between the two girls about what the consequences will be. DD2 did not earn the camp money, while DD1 worked very hard and saved responsibly to buy her own guitar.

I would replace DD1's guitar, and DD2 would not be going to camp this year with a full, gentle but firm explanation of why. Sometimes our actions have painful consequences that we didn't foresee, but that is a priceless lesson to learn. Ten years old is plenty old enough to know better than to even touch her sister's guitar without permission, let alone smash it into splinters because of something she saw on TV.

I hope you're able to reach a solution that works for your family.

[phathui5]

At the very least, I wouldn't send dd2 off to camp until she had a plan on paper as to how she is going to get her sister's guitar replaced.

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by heartmama

I thought about this tread all day.

Here is a concern that hasn't been raised:

Really think about this carefully.

There is a balance in every family. The balance is felt more than seen, and lasting 'hurts' happen when a decision is made without everyone invested, committed, and on board with a solution to an interpersonal 'wrong'.

Somehow dd2 must find a way to connect in a heart-to-heart way to this problem. The best solution is one that begins with a true heartfelt sense of empathy and compassion from dd2 to her older sister.

That is the first and MOST IMPORTANT step you can take. What happens next will be easier to determine once this is done.

Now, if dd2 cannot do this, if she puts on a front of indifference or callousness or defensiveness about what she did, that tells me there is a simmering problem precluding her smashing the guitar--there is already a problem in the relationship and *nothing* you do in terms of punishment is likely to address this problem at all.

If you move ahead and make a decision without dd2 having opened up her heart and connected emotionally to helping restore the guitar to her sister, I would really fear the long term impact of taking away the camp money for the guitar. Not for dd2 but for dd1.

I was a very sensitive teenager. If my sister smashed my guitar, and I was paid back in this way, and then had to watch my sister go through her own sadness and grief at missing camp, it would definitely have "tainted" my love of music and enjoyment of the guitar. Even if I had not said so up front, or said so after the fact, the return of the guitar at this price would have been a bitter 'victory'. Fairness and justice know nothing about these feelings of the heart--if we love someone we will suffer when they suffer.

It isn't that using camp funds is wrong. It is that the only way this decision could be done and bring the girls closer together would be if dd2 herself, under her own heart feelings, wanted to give up the camp money to her sister. *This is a sacrifice that must come from dd2 in order for both girls to grow closer from this exchange--otherwise there is a real risk of further division, resentment, and simmering jealousy*.

YES to this. The big problem here isn't camp vs guitar, it is that your dd's are not invested in solving the problem. It should not be YOUR problem, it is THEIR problem. Your dd2 needs to be involved in coming up with a solution. I would talk to her and tell her that since she broke the guitar (whether she meant to or not), she needs to fix the situation and help her sister feel better.

Tell her you've been brainstorming about it, going over the budget and trying to figure out how to help dd1, and the only thing you've been able to come up with is using the camp money. But you don't want to have to do that because you know how important it is to dd2. So you're asking her for help in brainstorming how to fix the situation.

Work with her on it. If she's not willing to brainstorm another solution, then she's making the decision to let you use the camp money. If she DOES really really work with you to come up with ideas, then you can support her in apologizing to her sister and presenting the potential solution. Then really sit with your dd2 and help her really hear what your dd1 is saying--WITHOUT interrupting or responding. If she needs to reply to defend herself, you should help her sit back and really hear how it made her sister feel..."yes, I know it was an accident, but it sounds like dd1 is still really hurt/disappointed/whatever."

Your DD needs to do this work, and find a solution with her sister. Not you. Your job is to support the 2 of them in really hearing each other out and brainstorming a way to rectify the situation here. If your dd2 is unwilling to do that work and really come to a place of trying to fix the situation, then she's choosing to have you use the camp money since that is the only solution that YOU can provide. Any other solution will have to come from dd2.

This way, you are not giving a punishment. You are making it dd2's decision to fix the solution another way, or to let you take care of it the only way you can see right now.

[twinergy]

ITA with Carlyle. I believe that breaking the guitar could have been an accident. When you watch those videos they look like they have to put a lot of effort into breaking a guitar. Usually they are grown men with muscles flexed; a 10 year old may think she doesn’t have enough strength to actually succeed. Of course we as adults know they are just being dramatic and a guitar is really very fragile. A 10 year old wouldn’t necessarily know this. It’s also plausible that she knew exactly what she was doing and acted out of jealousy. I don’t know your dd2, but you mama do know her. Go with your own instinct here, if you think she is genuine than trust her.

What is bothering me is that dd2 is not stepping up and taking accountability for the situation. If you make the decision to take camp away from her she is not taking accountability and she will see it as a punishment. I think a more reasonable consequence would be for her to work to pay for the guitar, but if she chooses to forfeit camp she would still be involved in the solution to take a lesson from it. I think dd1 worked hard to get the guitar and dd2 needs to work for something herself to learn real respect for other people’s belongings. It is possible that dd1 may feel better if she sees that dd2 isn’t getting away without any consequences but action should be taken before dd2 goes to camp. I really feel this is the best way to ensure that dd2 doesn’t do something like this again.

I was really struggling with the conflict between consequences for dd2 and dd1’s feelings; so I talked to DH. He has one younger sister so I expected him to take the same stance most older siblings have: no camp. They practiced the “don’t get even, get ahead” variety of competitiveness. They would escalate their battles and things got broken, people got hurt, they even did horrible things to each other’s pets.
This is what he had to add…
dd1’s expectation that dd2 miss camp is not reasonable, and just because there are worse ways she could be reacting doesn’t mean she is reacting reasonably. dd1 can wait for a new guitar but dd2 can’t wait to go to camp. If you take camp away from dd2 (it’s not her decision but actually dd1’s decision that you are enforcing) dd1 will have her guitar and dd2 goes without something equally important to her; this isn’t a balanced outcome. dd2 will resent this and she won’t learn the lesson of how hard people have to work to get things. He said if he were dd2 in this situation he would feel the need to get even and continue the cycle and just figure out some sneaky way to do it, maybe even break the next guitar. I think somebody else was talking about imbalance in the family, this is how DH interpreted how it might manifest. He also added that victims don’t always get to choose retribution. I guess it’s true but pretty harsh for dd1. He said if you could save some additional money to what dd2 earns to upgrade dd1’s guitar as a reward for being patient she might be happier about this route. Also explain to dd1 how important the lesson to dd2 is to teach her how hard it is to actually work for something herself.

Some other things I thought of… maybe you, dd1 and dd2 could start saving to buy the new guitar, then dd2 could pay back the borrowed money. This way dd2 learns the value of work and dd1 gets her guitar much faster. Also, maybe this was mentioned, but I pay very well to have my yard mowed by the 11 year neighbor boy and if I had a dog I would pay even more not to have to clean up after them in the yard. Is dd2 crafty at all, maybe she could start an online business (I have heard of 10 year olds doing this) and sell some of her crafts. I have some ideas for some easy hand sewing /felt crafts that I would like to make but don’t have time (PM me if she is up for it). Something else I just thought of is making natural lotions like this family business http://www.northernessence.com/ . Maybe some moms here have some other ideas for entrepreneurial endeavors. You have an opportunity here to teach dd2 a valuable lesson about work ethic and respecting other people’s things that would be lost if you take camp away from her.

[JollyGG]

To expand on the end of the last post.

I just paid a neighborhood boy $20 to mow my yard. A couple of weeks ago I paid a service $35 to clean up dog poop. I paid my babysitter $30 to watch my kids and I would have paid my daycare providers nephew for checking on my dogs, feeding them, watering them and walking them $20 had their mom let me.

My husband has been out of town for 5 months and I'm just not keeping up with things and I have a neighbor who delights in calling the city and complaining if I don't keep my yard up so I have had to pay neighborhood kids to do some stuff I don't have the time to keep on top of. I think it was money well spent.

The boy who mowed my lawn got $20 and he was there for 1-2 hours. He could easily have mowed 10 yard that week and earned $200 working less than 20 hours the whole week. He came door to door and handed out flyers and expressed a willingness to do anything you needed - mowing, weeding, landscaping, ect.